9 ms·

The Unbrickable Pledge

99 points by MBCook 2y ago

tracymarycory 2y ago
[dead]
kmoser 2y ago
> ...affirms our intent to release the core web application source code if and when we ever become insolvent as a company. We can only hope that, if and when this happens, they release the code before actual insolvency, otherwise the IP may fall into the hands of a less scrupulous organization.
- TylerE 2y ago
  In other words, they pinky promise it in a way that is absolutely irrelevant to move failure modes.
  - Spivak 2y ago
    This isn't how this works, my $dayjob has something like this in our contracts. We are obligated upload the entirety of our source code to a 3rd party escrow service as chosen by us and approved by them which will be released to the relevant parties if we become insolvent. Whether TRMNL is actually using an escrow, who knows, but this is a problem that can and has been solved.
    - MBCook 2y ago
      Plus the fact they’re even saying this puts them ahead of 99.9% of small device companies. Given the source they’ve already released along with their BYOD option I’m inclined to believe them.
      - kmoser 2y ago
        Did you believe Google when they said "don't be evil"?
        MBCook 2y ago
        I think that’s clearly different. TRMNL has said things about providing the ability to hack your device or bring your own device and followed through. They’ve taken concrete steps. The Google motto was more abstract. After they promised that what concrete steps did they take to show follow through?
        justin_oaks 2y ago
        "Past performance is not indicative of future results" People are unreliable. They change their behavior based on circumstance. The person who posted the pledge may well mean it right now, but then some things change and it all goes out the window. Even worse is that companies change hands. The old owners sell or, heaven forbid, the previous owner dies. When companies change owners, all previous promises have no meaning.
    - lmm 2y ago
      This is a problem that can and has been solved, but notably isn't solved by just posting this kind of "pledge" without actually setting up the escrow infrastructure.
- whartung 2y ago
  Being insolvent is not enough of a trigger. They can be perfectly solvent and simply decide they don’t want to play anymore, take their ball, and go home. Or they can be acquired and the new owners can tell the community to pound sand. Finally, when companies are insolvent they tend to not have the resources to follow through on things like this. Including maintaining things in escrow.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
0xbadcafebee 2y ago
Is there an e-ink tablet that I can just make stupid simple apps for, that aren't some hosted, API-driven thing? Give me wifi, e-ink display, and the ability to write a regular program that writes unicode chracters to STDOUT (and have that rendered to the display) and I'll give you my money right now. All it needs is a plain-old Linux TTY driver for the e-ink display (so you can set the fonts as you would in Linux). Then all you need for e-reading is a plain text file, the column tool for formatting, and the less pager for paging. In terms of output more complex than text, there's this program dialog that takes command-line input and renders a UI in a console. That exact same thing, except rendering directly to the e-ink display, would work fine for 90% of e-ink apps. It could handle rendering fonts, styles, images, layouts, buttons, etc. Anyone who can learn basic scripting and use unix command-line tools could then make their own e-ink apps, and run them on the tablet, with absurdly low resource use.
- ryanckulp 2y ago
  handling image generation on-board the PCB is a pretty heavy task, so we think the server-side delegation is clever + easier to extend. you don't need to host per se, however. you can deploy one of our BYOS options on a local network and let your device(s) ping 192.168/api/display. just about zero config required, just docker up and input your local network domain into the FW > captive portal UI during setup.
  - MBCook 2y ago
    The choices you made make perfect sense to me. For what TRMNL is it seems like a smart decision to me. I know CPU grunt is dirt cheap these days but you’d never get the battery life that you are if you put more smarts on the device. You’ve clearly optimized for something very useful. I got mine a little over a week ago, I’ve been enjoying it so far. I was messing around with my settings tonight when I found your post and I thought it would do well here. I love the idea that even if something happens I can keep mine going easily.
  - jamespo 2y ago
    I was unaware of your project before and had actually done a basic "rolling my own" with a pi zero, e-ink screen, home assistant & hass-lovelace-kindle-screensaver which has a similar pulling image architecture. However I can see many benefits of this, particularly running without a power connection and have ordered. Hurry up with the next batch!
tonymet 2y ago
What do you guys think of an escrow certification service similar to OU (kosher foods). E.g. UB – un-brickable would certify that a vendor provides access to the bootloader & signing keys to ensure the lifetime access. In the event the product or company ceases to exist, the escrow service would release the assets needed to continue open-source firmware updates. There could be multiple levels of UB certification ranging from : only keys to fully open sourcing the firmware upon termination
- ryanckulp 2y ago
  open to it. perhaps granting an escrow service readonly permission to web server box (not DB) would suffice, as then it could all be pulled down, versus closed source on GH? i'm new to this but we do want to demonstrate sincerity and put our $ where our mouth is.
- inetknght 2y ago
  I'm not against the idea. I don't want HP-ificiation or Samsung-ification or FAANG-ificiation or any other form of enshittification. Just require _everything_ to be open source to be fully certified. Without open source hardware and software, you're just buying future e-waste. I don't want some workaround like "oh yeah the certificate is for the initial release but you need to update for security and oh by the way the update is not certified". Otherwise, imagine this scenario: Company release a product and pushes out the version for the certification. Updates require new versions to be signed with a particular key. A couple months later, the key is leaked! Okay, so keys are rotated and a new update is pushed and the old key is blocked. What happens to the certification? What use is the certified key? What use is the certified source code? The certification should mandate a user-activatable factory-reset to the certified keys and code, which can't be tampered with by firmware to block or modify a different firmware from being installed.
- TransAtlToonz 2y ago
  Why not simply mandate providing code? It doesn't make any sense to wait until the vendor dies to buy.
  - 2y ago
slau 2y ago
What are people’s thoughts on this product? Does anybody have it and what do you use it for?
- gloxkiqcza 2y ago
  This is a nice overview: https://youtu.be/eIcZZX10pa4 https://youtu.be/eIcZZX10pa4
sarreph 2y ago
Nice initiative. Unfortunately, words alone don't carry much weight these days: > [...] hereby affirms our intent to [...] A pledge like that is like a promise — it can be broken with no consequence. To answer their question: > how will we handle growing server costs? Not with words alone!
- RobotToaster 2y ago
  Also only the core web app, when most of the value with something like this is the plugin ecosystem.
svilen_dobrev 2y ago
on their homepage, 2nd picture.. > Stay focused.. Progress to retirement: xx % | yyyy Weeks left nice reminder :)
Mekoloto 2y ago
I really like most of it. I might just order it but i do not like the thick frame and would probably try to build it myself. mmhhh
- MBCook 2y ago
  Look up their BYOD plan. They’re working to make exactly that possible.
bravura 2y ago
In the grand scheme of things, is the source code that valuable if it's released in a hurry? For a niche product like this, most likely it will be hot pile of garbage.
- cmcconomy 2y ago
  why post this?
deskr 2y ago
>Introducing the Unbrickable Pledge. > ... intent to release ... if and when we ever become insolvent as a company. First, it's an intent, not a promise. Second, if you are acquired or product sold, then no such promises/intent mean anything anymore. Calling it the "Unbrickable Pledge" sounds like a bit of an overstatement.
joshstrange 2y ago
It’s not mentioned in this article but there are already open source backends for TRMNL and it’s as “easy” (I’ve not done it but it seems straightforward) as editing the endpoint in the open source firmware, building the firmware, and copying it over to your device. So far I’ve been happy with the default offerings so I haven’t tried it but it’s nice to know there is always an escape hatch.
- ryanckulp 2y ago
  modding endpoint in FW is no longer required. now built into the wifi captive portal UI: https://github.com/usetrmnl/firmware/pull/66 https://github.com/usetrmnl/firmware/pull/66
  - joshstrange 2y ago
    Oh nice! I was wondering how I missed that because I just got my TRMNL last week so I figured my knowledge was up-to-date but I see this was merged 2 days ago, very cool!
ineedasername 2y ago
They link to a wayback archive of their announcement, but it errors with: Hrm. The Wayback Machine has not archived that URL. Click here to search for all archived pages under
segphault 2y ago
And yet the device enclosure is made with “soft touch” ABS plastic, which degrades terribly over time and becomes sticky. Any gadget made with this material is ewaste in 6-10 years.
- ineedasername 2y ago
  There are a variety of ways to make abs sticky-ness go away. Orange oil is a common and easy one, though a little trial and error on a small patch with different options will often yield good results if it doesn’t work. I think maintenance and care of this sort is a reasonable requirement
  - BobBagwill 2y ago
    Corn starch works, too.
- ryanckulp 2y ago
  i hear you. only the black case is soft touch, other cases are not. white is currently most popular, ~60% of sales. black 35%, translucent 5%.
- djhn 2y ago
  Is there a resource to read more about the types of plastic commonly used in current generation consumer products? Other than a degree in material science or something similar, that is. Maybe something a bit more digestible, like a book.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
adhoc_slime 2y ago
Maybe this is a weird thing to focus on but the chart they show on their device how on earth is server costs their top expense as a company?

99 points by MBCook 2y ago

[dead]

> ...affirms our intent to release the core web application source code if and when we ever become insolvent as a company. We can only hope that, if and when this happens, they release the code before actual insolvency, otherwise the IP may fall into the hands of a less scrupulous organization.

TylerE 2y ago
In other words, they pinky promise it in a way that is absolutely irrelevant to move failure modes.
- Spivak 2y ago
  This isn't how this works, my $dayjob has something like this in our contracts. We are obligated upload the entirety of our source code to a 3rd party escrow service as chosen by us and approved by them which will be released to the relevant parties if we become insolvent. Whether TRMNL is actually using an escrow, who knows, but this is a problem that can and has been solved.
  - MBCook 2y ago
    Plus the fact they’re even saying this puts them ahead of 99.9% of small device companies. Given the source they’ve already released along with their BYOD option I’m inclined to believe them.
    - kmoser 2y ago
      Did you believe Google when they said "don't be evil"?
      - MBCook 2y ago
        I think that’s clearly different. TRMNL has said things about providing the ability to hack your device or bring your own device and followed through. They’ve taken concrete steps. The Google motto was more abstract. After they promised that what concrete steps did they take to show follow through?
        justin_oaks 2y ago
        "Past performance is not indicative of future results" People are unreliable. They change their behavior based on circumstance. The person who posted the pledge may well mean it right now, but then some things change and it all goes out the window. Even worse is that companies change hands. The old owners sell or, heaven forbid, the previous owner dies. When companies change owners, all previous promises have no meaning.
  - lmm 2y ago
    This is a problem that can and has been solved, but notably isn't solved by just posting this kind of "pledge" without actually setting up the escrow infrastructure.
whartung 2y ago
Being insolvent is not enough of a trigger. They can be perfectly solvent and simply decide they don’t want to play anymore, take their ball, and go home. Or they can be acquired and the new owners can tell the community to pound sand. Finally, when companies are insolvent they tend to not have the resources to follow through on things like this. Including maintaining things in escrow.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

0xbadcafebee 2y ago

Is there an e-ink tablet that I can just make stupid simple apps for, that aren't some hosted, API-driven thing? Give me wifi, e-ink display, and the ability to write a regular program that writes unicode chracters to STDOUT (and have that rendered to the display) and I'll give you my money right now. All it needs is a plain-old Linux TTY driver for the e-ink display (so you can set the fonts as you would in Linux). Then all you need for e-reading is a plain text file, the column tool for formatting, and the less pager for paging. In terms of output more complex than text, there's this program dialog that takes command-line input and renders a UI in a console. That exact same thing, except rendering directly to the e-ink display, would work fine for 90% of e-ink apps. It could handle rendering fonts, styles, images, layouts, buttons, etc. Anyone who can learn basic scripting and use unix command-line tools could then make their own e-ink apps, and run them on the tablet, with absurdly low resource use.

ryanckulp 2y ago
handling image generation on-board the PCB is a pretty heavy task, so we think the server-side delegation is clever + easier to extend. you don't need to host per se, however. you can deploy one of our BYOS options on a local network and let your device(s) ping 192.168/api/display. just about zero config required, just docker up and input your local network domain into the FW > captive portal UI during setup.
- MBCook 2y ago
  The choices you made make perfect sense to me. For what TRMNL is it seems like a smart decision to me. I know CPU grunt is dirt cheap these days but you’d never get the battery life that you are if you put more smarts on the device. You’ve clearly optimized for something very useful. I got mine a little over a week ago, I’ve been enjoying it so far. I was messing around with my settings tonight when I found your post and I thought it would do well here. I love the idea that even if something happens I can keep mine going easily.
- jamespo 2y ago
  I was unaware of your project before and had actually done a basic "rolling my own" with a pi zero, e-ink screen, home assistant & hass-lovelace-kindle-screensaver which has a similar pulling image architecture. However I can see many benefits of this, particularly running without a power connection and have ordered. Hurry up with the next batch!

tonymet 2y ago

What do you guys think of an escrow certification service similar to OU (kosher foods). E.g. UB – un-brickable would certify that a vendor provides access to the bootloader & signing keys to ensure the lifetime access. In the event the product or company ceases to exist, the escrow service would release the assets needed to continue open-source firmware updates. There could be multiple levels of UB certification ranging from : only keys to fully open sourcing the firmware upon termination

ryanckulp 2y ago
open to it. perhaps granting an escrow service readonly permission to web server box (not DB) would suffice, as then it could all be pulled down, versus closed source on GH? i'm new to this but we do want to demonstrate sincerity and put our $ where our mouth is.
inetknght 2y ago
I'm not against the idea. I don't want HP-ificiation or Samsung-ification or FAANG-ificiation or any other form of enshittification. Just require _everything_ to be open source to be fully certified. Without open source hardware and software, you're just buying future e-waste. I don't want some workaround like "oh yeah the certificate is for the initial release but you need to update for security and oh by the way the update is not certified". Otherwise, imagine this scenario: Company release a product and pushes out the version for the certification. Updates require new versions to be signed with a particular key. A couple months later, the key is leaked! Okay, so keys are rotated and a new update is pushed and the old key is blocked. What happens to the certification? What use is the certified key? What use is the certified source code? The certification should mandate a user-activatable factory-reset to the certified keys and code, which can't be tampered with by firmware to block or modify a different firmware from being installed.
TransAtlToonz 2y ago
Why not simply mandate providing code? It doesn't make any sense to wait until the vendor dies to buy.
- 2y ago

slau 2y ago

What are people’s thoughts on this product? Does anybody have it and what do you use it for?

gloxkiqcza 2y ago
This is a nice overview: https://youtu.be/eIcZZX10pa4 https://youtu.be/eIcZZX10pa4

sarreph 2y ago

Nice initiative. Unfortunately, words alone don't carry much weight these days: > [...] hereby affirms our intent to [...] A pledge like that is like a promise — it can be broken with no consequence. To answer their question: > how will we handle growing server costs? Not with words alone!

RobotToaster 2y ago
Also only the core web app, when most of the value with something like this is the plugin ecosystem.

svilen_dobrev 2y ago

on their homepage, 2nd picture.. > Stay focused.. Progress to retirement: xx % | yyyy Weeks left nice reminder :)

Mekoloto 2y ago

I really like most of it. I might just order it but i do not like the thick frame and would probably try to build it myself. mmhhh

MBCook 2y ago
Look up their BYOD plan. They’re working to make exactly that possible.

bravura 2y ago

In the grand scheme of things, is the source code that valuable if it's released in a hurry? For a niche product like this, most likely it will be hot pile of garbage.

cmcconomy 2y ago
why post this?

deskr 2y ago

>Introducing the Unbrickable Pledge. > ... intent to release ... if and when we ever become insolvent as a company. First, it's an intent, not a promise. Second, if you are acquired or product sold, then no such promises/intent mean anything anymore. Calling it the "Unbrickable Pledge" sounds like a bit of an overstatement.

joshstrange 2y ago

It’s not mentioned in this article but there are already open source backends for TRMNL and it’s as “easy” (I’ve not done it but it seems straightforward) as editing the endpoint in the open source firmware, building the firmware, and copying it over to your device. So far I’ve been happy with the default offerings so I haven’t tried it but it’s nice to know there is always an escape hatch.

ryanckulp 2y ago
modding endpoint in FW is no longer required. now built into the wifi captive portal UI: https://github.com/usetrmnl/firmware/pull/66 https://github.com/usetrmnl/firmware/pull/66
- joshstrange 2y ago
  Oh nice! I was wondering how I missed that because I just got my TRMNL last week so I figured my knowledge was up-to-date but I see this was merged 2 days ago, very cool!

ineedasername 2y ago

They link to a wayback archive of their announcement, but it errors with: Hrm. The Wayback Machine has not archived that URL. Click here to search for all archived pages under

segphault 2y ago

And yet the device enclosure is made with “soft touch” ABS plastic, which degrades terribly over time and becomes sticky. Any gadget made with this material is ewaste in 6-10 years.

ineedasername 2y ago
There are a variety of ways to make abs sticky-ness go away. Orange oil is a common and easy one, though a little trial and error on a small patch with different options will often yield good results if it doesn’t work. I think maintenance and care of this sort is a reasonable requirement
- BobBagwill 2y ago
  Corn starch works, too.
ryanckulp 2y ago
i hear you. only the black case is soft touch, other cases are not. white is currently most popular, ~60% of sales. black 35%, translucent 5%.
djhn 2y ago
Is there a resource to read more about the types of plastic commonly used in current generation consumer products? Other than a degree in material science or something similar, that is. Maybe something a bit more digestible, like a book.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

adhoc_slime 2y ago

Maybe this is a weird thing to focus on but the chart they show on their device how on earth is server costs their top expense as a company?