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For anyone (like me) who doesn’t know what 18F is: > 18F is a digital services agency within the Technology Transformation Services department of the General S

For anyone (like me) who doesn’t know what 18F is: > 18F is a digital services agency within the Technology Transformation Services department of the General Services Administration (GSA) of the United States Government. 18F helps other government agencies build, buy, and share technology products. The team consists of designers, software engineers, strategists, and product managers who collaborate with other agencies to fix technical problems, build products, and improve public service through technology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/18F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/18F

GeneralMayhem 2y ago
18F - and its sibling the US Digital Service, before it was eviscerated to become the host for the DOGE parasite - is exactly the sort of thing you would create if you want government to run efficiently. Creating room for well-meaning technical experts to offer their expertise across the government, without being locked into a lifelong public-sector career path, is a fantastic idea. Even at its worst, it's taking work that could otherwise go to beltway-bandit contractors, but in-house, with all the cost and friction reduction that that implies. At its best, it's able to spot cross-agency opportunities that no other agency would see on its own. If you're still on the fence about giving the current administration the benefit of the doubt, dismantling these agencies based on zero analysis is perhaps the clearest possible evidence that "efficiency" is not the primary goal, or in fact a goal at all.
- monero-xmr 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - atemerev 2y ago
    I would prefer some medicine without vice signalling with particular gestures from 1930s, thank you.
    - UncleOxidant 2y ago
      This is the first time I've seen the term "vice signalling" and it seems to fit. I suspect this is not the last we'll hear of that term.
  - hoten 2y ago
    If we're done having fun with words, would you like to take this opportunity to provide some reason to think this true? Specifically, how DOGE is combatting inefficiency.
    - fragmede 2y ago
      The question is if one is dumb enough to buy Tweets from the DoGE Twitter account as anything resembling reality. There's plenty of "evidence" there for morons to buy.
      - hoten 2y ago
        Of course, but to start the uphill battle of calling out the bullshit, we have to at least know which bullshit to counter. For me, the only charitable interpretation of DOGE is that they have accidentally figured out how to spread incompetence (not wholly unfamiliar to much of the government) to the small islands that fended it off (gutting 18F/USDS). The cherry was accidentally firing a chunk of the nation's nuclear experts to save a dime, and then clawing them back. I think any claim of DOGE doing good work has to address those things in a convincing manner (in addition to why the existing processes are lacking; GAO). I haven't seen that attempted by anyone.
    - monero-xmr 2y ago
      How would cutting spending be a parasite? The goal is to cut spending.
      - hoten 2y ago
        That does seem to be the goal. But the facade is that it is wasteful spending being cut.
      - MyOutfitIsVague 2y ago
        The parasitic act is cutting spending while leveraging the position to increase their own revenue. The guy "cutting spending" is getting contracts and tax cuts out of the deal, and killing watchdog agencies and anything else that might try to stop him. It's almost poetically parasitic. He's inside the host, sucking it dry, while killing anything that can get in his way.
  - MyOutfitIsVague 2y ago
    The parasites are trying to raise the national debt by 4 trillion USD, to pass on as tax cuts to only the richest people in the country. DOGE is playing whack-a-mole against figures that are 5 orders of magnitude smaller, while ignoring the waste that pads their own pockets.
    - monero-xmr 2y ago
      The ideal world is zero tax. Failing that the minimal possible tax. Paying taxes is not in itself virtuous, nor is spending tax money a good thing. We cut spending, then we cut taxes
      - btilly 2y ago
        Let's not cut taxes until after the deficit is zeroed out. Preferably until after the debt is going down, so that the next generation doesn't have to pay interest on our poor decisions.
      - MyOutfitIsVague 2y ago
        How do we fund road repairs and constructions with zero tax? Medical care for the poor who can't afford medical care or insurance? Public education in general?
        ethbr1 2y ago
        And critically, are these things more cheaply centrally provided by a government? Not providing a medical safety net or social security net seems like it's saving money... until one has to account for the downstream costs those decisions have.
        monero-xmr 2y ago
        If we decide to do these things with tax dollars, then as a society our goal should be the best outcome for the lowest cost. Many seem to have forgotten this
        2y ago
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - mock-possum 2y ago
    That’s its stated purpose, yes, but given whose mouth those statements have come out of, I’m pretty skeptical that that’s going to be the actual outcome. Totally willing to be proven wrong, we’ll see.
- EnergyAmy 2y ago
  It's astounding that this is crystal clear, and yet you still have people like the sibling commenter trying to find ways of defending Musk. It reminds me of the quote comparing Libertarians to cats: > Libertarians are like house cats in that they are convinced of their fierce independence while utterly dependent on a system they don't appreciate or understand People like that shouldn't be allowed to vote. I don't actually believe that, but it's hard to watch Idiocracy happen in real time and watch low-information people cheer it on.
  - rl3 2y ago
    While a lot of us both relate and agree, I’m not sure the rhetoric is helpful here. If the flame wars are kept to a minimum, the submission keeps trending, and awareness rises. This one in particular is very important for the tech community. I think the crux is that too many people are taking what’s being said at face value. The banner of cost cutting and lean government was chosen because it’s hard to argue with, assuming it’s true and done responsibly - which it isn’t. Randomly firing 200 people that worked at NNSA is one of the most profound examples of this, let alone gutting 18F. For anyone paying attention, it’s indeed crystal clear the move is being used to install loyalists while “saving” an amount of money that’s order(s) of magnitude less than the grift they’ve granted themselves, after cutting the very watchdogs setup to stop that kind of grift. Heck, even the word grift is charitable when it’s more like outright brazen corruption. However, convincing everyone of this difficult insofar that it requires them to a) not take these people at face value, and b) swallow the pill that not only were they wrong for trusting said persons in the first place, but they potentially even voted in the administration that’s doing the damage. Getting people to admit that they were wrong, even to themselves, is pretty hard these days. Hopefully it becomes too obvious to ignore, and that process becomes easier when it’s replaced by a feeling of betrayal. Because if there’s one things American love on either side of the aisle, it’s getting angry. 18F was one of the finest examples of a non-partisan agile tech organization that was highly efficient and effective. It was just trashed it for no good reason at all.
    - foobarian 2y ago
      It's telling that all the cost cutting is happening in the 1% slice of the pie, not the defense slice of the pie. There be dragons most likely.
- ethbr1 2y ago
  Qft. USDS/18F was the correct answer to "Many US government departments have similar needs, but insufficient IT expertise (or authority) to deliver well." To which the obvious solution was to create a center of excellence for those skills, then offer them across the government. Most critically, including paved roads of the "right" way to do things (but which no individual agency was willing to fight to get approved). PS: Fuck DOGE/Elon for having enough hubris so as to think they can do better. Although my guess is Hanlon's razor, with addendum, applies. >> Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. (or ego) To repeat my previous framing of this: it's easy to sell younger technologists on a two step plan to make things better. (1) Destroy the old (2) Build the new. Unfortunately, they don't yet understand the latter is orders of magnitude more difficult than the former.
  - dkhenry 2y ago
    I worked for the USDS in the early days and I am very familiar with 18F, and I don't think your comment tracks. There were lots of issues with agencies using 18F, and not much of the federal IT spend migrated to 18F during its 10 year history, even though most of the products they launched were good. Even USDS teams didn't always take up 18F on its products, and instead would utilize outside contracts for a majority of their projects. Realistically the government needs to do better then 18F was doing and there are many reforms needed to actually have a paved road agencies can drive on.
    - omnivore 2y ago
      The model of 18F changed a lot, none of those products including Login.gov or Cloud.gov were part of 18F, they're all spinfoffs that live within TTS.
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      Appreciate the comment! If you had a magic wand, what are the main problems you would unblock to create better/cheaper/faster government IT outcomes, based on your experience?
      - 2y ago
zerocrates 2y ago
Perhaps more widely known very recently for being the subject of an Elon tweet saying "that group has been deleted," though whether he was referring to 18F as a whole or just those working on the free filing system for the IRS was unclear.
js2 2y ago
18F has been discussed on HN quite a few times, though not too much recently: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=18f https://hn.algolia.com/?q=18f Here's its GitHub org: https://github.com/18F https://github.com/18F
khazhoux 2y ago
Are there any metrics to show 18F or USDS are strong successes? My impression has always been that it is a well-intended but low-impact effort.
- tehjoker 2y ago
  Hard to say who's responsibility it is but federal websites have gotten noticeably less shitty over time and I always feel more at ease on a website that obviously had their input.
- pimlottc 2y ago
  You could always read one of USDS’s reports to Congress to get an idea on what they’ve done: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22report+to+congress%22+%2Bsite%3Ausds.gov https://www.google.com/search?q=%22report+to+congress%22+%2B...
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- itronitron 2y ago
  Like when a state considers itself a global superpower but hasn't had any notable impact on an unremarkably sized rock orbiting an average sized star in a barely noticeable galaxy?
  - hofrogs 2y ago
    [dead]
- snowwrestler 2y ago
  One of the big wins was login.gov which is modern, easy to use, more secure, and less expensive than the crazy array of ancient agency-specific login systems it was in the process of replacing. What happens to it now, I have no idea. It’s probably going to be scrapped in favor of “login with X”.

GeneralMayhem 2y ago

18F - and its sibling the US Digital Service, before it was eviscerated to become the host for the DOGE parasite - is exactly the sort of thing you would create if you want government to run efficiently. Creating room for well-meaning technical experts to offer their expertise across the government, without being locked into a lifelong public-sector career path, is a fantastic idea. Even at its worst, it's taking work that could otherwise go to beltway-bandit contractors, but in-house, with all the cost and friction reduction that that implies. At its best, it's able to spot cross-agency opportunities that no other agency would see on its own. If you're still on the fence about giving the current administration the benefit of the doubt, dismantling these agencies based on zero analysis is perhaps the clearest possible evidence that "efficiency" is not the primary goal, or in fact a goal at all.

monero-xmr 2y ago
[flagged]
- atemerev 2y ago
  I would prefer some medicine without vice signalling with particular gestures from 1930s, thank you.
  - UncleOxidant 2y ago
    This is the first time I've seen the term "vice signalling" and it seems to fit. I suspect this is not the last we'll hear of that term.
- hoten 2y ago
  If we're done having fun with words, would you like to take this opportunity to provide some reason to think this true? Specifically, how DOGE is combatting inefficiency.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    The question is if one is dumb enough to buy Tweets from the DoGE Twitter account as anything resembling reality. There's plenty of "evidence" there for morons to buy.
    - hoten 2y ago
      Of course, but to start the uphill battle of calling out the bullshit, we have to at least know which bullshit to counter. For me, the only charitable interpretation of DOGE is that they have accidentally figured out how to spread incompetence (not wholly unfamiliar to much of the government) to the small islands that fended it off (gutting 18F/USDS). The cherry was accidentally firing a chunk of the nation's nuclear experts to save a dime, and then clawing them back. I think any claim of DOGE doing good work has to address those things in a convincing manner (in addition to why the existing processes are lacking; GAO). I haven't seen that attempted by anyone.
  - monero-xmr 2y ago
    How would cutting spending be a parasite? The goal is to cut spending.
    - hoten 2y ago
      That does seem to be the goal. But the facade is that it is wasteful spending being cut.
    - MyOutfitIsVague 2y ago
      The parasitic act is cutting spending while leveraging the position to increase their own revenue. The guy "cutting spending" is getting contracts and tax cuts out of the deal, and killing watchdog agencies and anything else that might try to stop him. It's almost poetically parasitic. He's inside the host, sucking it dry, while killing anything that can get in his way.
- MyOutfitIsVague 2y ago
  The parasites are trying to raise the national debt by 4 trillion USD, to pass on as tax cuts to only the richest people in the country. DOGE is playing whack-a-mole against figures that are 5 orders of magnitude smaller, while ignoring the waste that pads their own pockets.
  - monero-xmr 2y ago
    The ideal world is zero tax. Failing that the minimal possible tax. Paying taxes is not in itself virtuous, nor is spending tax money a good thing. We cut spending, then we cut taxes
    - btilly 2y ago
      Let's not cut taxes until after the deficit is zeroed out. Preferably until after the debt is going down, so that the next generation doesn't have to pay interest on our poor decisions.
    - MyOutfitIsVague 2y ago
      How do we fund road repairs and constructions with zero tax? Medical care for the poor who can't afford medical care or insurance? Public education in general?
      - ethbr1 2y ago
        And critically, are these things more cheaply centrally provided by a government? Not providing a medical safety net or social security net seems like it's saving money... until one has to account for the downstream costs those decisions have.
      - monero-xmr 2y ago
        If we decide to do these things with tax dollars, then as a society our goal should be the best outcome for the lowest cost. Many seem to have forgotten this
        2y ago
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- mock-possum 2y ago
  That’s its stated purpose, yes, but given whose mouth those statements have come out of, I’m pretty skeptical that that’s going to be the actual outcome. Totally willing to be proven wrong, we’ll see.
EnergyAmy 2y ago
It's astounding that this is crystal clear, and yet you still have people like the sibling commenter trying to find ways of defending Musk. It reminds me of the quote comparing Libertarians to cats: > Libertarians are like house cats in that they are convinced of their fierce independence while utterly dependent on a system they don't appreciate or understand People like that shouldn't be allowed to vote. I don't actually believe that, but it's hard to watch Idiocracy happen in real time and watch low-information people cheer it on.
- rl3 2y ago
  While a lot of us both relate and agree, I’m not sure the rhetoric is helpful here. If the flame wars are kept to a minimum, the submission keeps trending, and awareness rises. This one in particular is very important for the tech community. I think the crux is that too many people are taking what’s being said at face value. The banner of cost cutting and lean government was chosen because it’s hard to argue with, assuming it’s true and done responsibly - which it isn’t. Randomly firing 200 people that worked at NNSA is one of the most profound examples of this, let alone gutting 18F. For anyone paying attention, it’s indeed crystal clear the move is being used to install loyalists while “saving” an amount of money that’s order(s) of magnitude less than the grift they’ve granted themselves, after cutting the very watchdogs setup to stop that kind of grift. Heck, even the word grift is charitable when it’s more like outright brazen corruption. However, convincing everyone of this difficult insofar that it requires them to a) not take these people at face value, and b) swallow the pill that not only were they wrong for trusting said persons in the first place, but they potentially even voted in the administration that’s doing the damage. Getting people to admit that they were wrong, even to themselves, is pretty hard these days. Hopefully it becomes too obvious to ignore, and that process becomes easier when it’s replaced by a feeling of betrayal. Because if there’s one things American love on either side of the aisle, it’s getting angry. 18F was one of the finest examples of a non-partisan agile tech organization that was highly efficient and effective. It was just trashed it for no good reason at all.
  - foobarian 2y ago
    It's telling that all the cost cutting is happening in the 1% slice of the pie, not the defense slice of the pie. There be dragons most likely.
ethbr1 2y ago
Qft. USDS/18F was the correct answer to "Many US government departments have similar needs, but insufficient IT expertise (or authority) to deliver well." To which the obvious solution was to create a center of excellence for those skills, then offer them across the government. Most critically, including paved roads of the "right" way to do things (but which no individual agency was willing to fight to get approved). PS: Fuck DOGE/Elon for having enough hubris so as to think they can do better. Although my guess is Hanlon's razor, with addendum, applies. >> Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. (or ego) To repeat my previous framing of this: it's easy to sell younger technologists on a two step plan to make things better. (1) Destroy the old (2) Build the new. Unfortunately, they don't yet understand the latter is orders of magnitude more difficult than the former.
- dkhenry 2y ago
  I worked for the USDS in the early days and I am very familiar with 18F, and I don't think your comment tracks. There were lots of issues with agencies using 18F, and not much of the federal IT spend migrated to 18F during its 10 year history, even though most of the products they launched were good. Even USDS teams didn't always take up 18F on its products, and instead would utilize outside contracts for a majority of their projects. Realistically the government needs to do better then 18F was doing and there are many reforms needed to actually have a paved road agencies can drive on.
  - omnivore 2y ago
    The model of 18F changed a lot, none of those products including Login.gov or Cloud.gov were part of 18F, they're all spinfoffs that live within TTS.
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    Appreciate the comment! If you had a magic wand, what are the main problems you would unblock to create better/cheaper/faster government IT outcomes, based on your experience?
    - 2y ago

zerocrates 2y ago

Perhaps more widely known very recently for being the subject of an Elon tweet saying "that group has been deleted," though whether he was referring to 18F as a whole or just those working on the free filing system for the IRS was unclear.

js2 2y ago

18F has been discussed on HN quite a few times, though not too much recently: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=18f https://hn.algolia.com/?q=18f Here's its GitHub org: https://github.com/18F https://github.com/18F

khazhoux 2y ago

Are there any metrics to show 18F or USDS are strong successes? My impression has always been that it is a well-intended but low-impact effort.

tehjoker 2y ago
Hard to say who's responsibility it is but federal websites have gotten noticeably less shitty over time and I always feel more at ease on a website that obviously had their input.
pimlottc 2y ago
You could always read one of USDS’s reports to Congress to get an idea on what they’ve done: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22report+to+congress%22+%2Bsite%3Ausds.gov https://www.google.com/search?q=%22report+to+congress%22+%2B...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
itronitron 2y ago
Like when a state considers itself a global superpower but hasn't had any notable impact on an unremarkably sized rock orbiting an average sized star in a barely noticeable galaxy?
- hofrogs 2y ago
  [dead]
snowwrestler 2y ago
One of the big wins was login.gov which is modern, easy to use, more secure, and less expensive than the crazy array of ancient agency-specific login systems it was in the process of replacing. What happens to it now, I have no idea. It’s probably going to be scrapped in favor of “login with X”.