15 ms·

India's Tata Consultancy Was Gaming the US Visa System

115 points by jollofricepeas 2y ago

djoldman 2y ago
https://archive.ph/HrHtV https://archive.ph/HrHtV
shashanoid 2y ago
This is common knowledge. Fucking pricks should be banned. Ruining H1B prospects for many deserving candidates
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Ruining H1B prospects for many deserving candidates Not a story about TCS abusing H-1Bs.
- blased 2y ago
  > Ruining H1B prospects for many deserving candidates H1B shouldn't exist, there is no shortage of domestic talent for what amounts to standard office work. The sort of things I've seen done by H1B is nothing short of appallingly bad which makes this whole debate all the more infuriating. Visas do exist for truly exceptional talent.
debarshri 2y ago
Theres nothing new here. Everyone knows, when you join outsourcing orgs in India, the goal is to go on-site. There is lot of internal politics and toxicity to be in that position to go onsite. Recently, I have seen these orgs. do the same in europe. They are just bombarding the system with applications. What is the motivation you ask? For billable resource, rates are different for resource when they are on-site vs off-site. Margins are better too.
- cudgy 2y ago
  This has been going on for decades and everyone in the industry knows it. Articles like these are simply propaganda to make it seem like something‘s being done about the issue. The system is and has been completely broken and, like most of the immigration policy in the US, it is a façade with the sole purpose of providing cheap labor for US corporations. There are plentiful capable US engineers available to be hired without the need for any of these programs other than the most exclusive programs for the top 0.1% of talent in the world. The same tired old argument is made in the unskilled immigration space as well. Companies scream that there’s no availability of workers to build houses, operate restaurants, tend farms, clean facilities, drive trucks, or virtually any other job. Does anyone wonder why the current administration is targeting the immigrants themselves and not the employers that hire them? They know that by targeting the immigrants it looks like they’re doing something, when really they are doing little to stem the problem. This whole problem largely goes away if employers are targeted directly for abusing the system, but it will never happen because cheap labor for corporations is the true driver.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > There are plentiful capable US engineers available to be hired without the need for any of these programs other than the most exclusive programs for the top 0.1% of talent in the world Yes for engineers, no for a lot of low-level work. The role of AI is being overstated. But there is a cap to IT salaries given remote working’s impact on the relative cost of offshoring. > Does anyone wonder why the current administration is targeting the immigrants themselves and not the employers that hire them? Absolutely. That said, the American consumer probably isn’t ready for the cost of food where everyone in the supply chain is paid a minimum wage and full benefits. (Counterfactual: the Netherlands.)
  - linuxftw 2y ago
    Corporations exploiting cheap labor is a bipartisan issue in the US. There doesn't seem to be any knobs that can be turned to go after corporations for exploiting cheap but legal immigrant labor. What can any administration do? "You didn't break the law, but we don't like you" isn't going to stand up in court. What the current administration is trying to do that WILL impact corporations is raise tariffs. This will raise the cost of production overseas and on-shore some business, which will increase the demand for labor domestically. Many people argue that this will cause inflation. I don't think it will. Consumers cannot pay with more money than they have. If some country in Asia wants to sell their wares for $10 usd, and the consumer only wants to pay $9, guess what? They're only getting $9 for the goods. Many countries are promising reciprocal tariffs, though that's what the current administration is attempting to impose. This is also great for Americans. That means corporations have to sell goods overseas for less, meaning there is less competition for their products, which means Americans can buy for less. Corporations will HAVE to accept lower margins. It would be great if a bill could be passed to completely eliminate all white-collar immigration. We have enough talent in this country, and the other countries need it more.
techterrier 2y ago
no. shit. sherlock.
bluedino 2y ago
Here's what I don't get about TCS: I worked for a local Fortune 100 company, and 20 years ago they started outsourcing IT-related jobs to TCS (and a couple smaller staffing companies). Mostly in India and South America. Then about 10 years ago, the company dedicated almost an entire building to TCS, and TCS starting hiring contractors locally, and perhaps moved H1B's here to work on-site? What's the next step, start hiring off-shore again?
- debarshri 2y ago
  You have to maintain certain ratio to hire locally and move h1b employees. Quite sometimes, you need client facing employee to be a local. Also, what i have seen in europe is that, there is a mandate where in they have to publish the job locally and when they cannot find the employee, they can sponsor a visa and bring them into the country. However, what they do is, they would reject all the local candidates and claim that they could not find the candidate with right technology fit.
rupi 2y ago
The easiest way to solve this is to salary rank the H1B applicants. Those with the highest salaries get picked; not the ‘lucky ones’ that get through a lottery, which puts a PhD from MIT and a new hire at Tata from a no name school in India on equal footing. And I say this as someone who was on H1B. The current system benefits no one but these visa mills. Edit: for grammar
- YetAnotherNick 2y ago
  PhD from MIT could very well earn less than a mid range developer even though they are contributing much more to the society and country. Also salary war would mean companies face pressure to increase the salary of immigrants over the citizens.
  - lazide 2y ago
    The massive pressure in these Visa systems is precisely because of the opposite issue - it’s cheaper (and gives the employer more leverage) to hire from abroad than pay someone local.
  - aleph_minus_one 2y ago
    > PhD from MIT could very well earn less than a mid range developer even though they are contributing much more to the society and country. If this is true, the supply of such people should be reduced (i.e. don't hand out H1B visas to them), so that by the laws of supply and demand the salaries increase for them.
    - YetAnotherNick 2y ago
      The problem is that research is not as beneficial to the company at least in the short term. e.g. Google wouldn't be affected much if quantum computing divison is shut down, but would be affected if google ads stops showing, even though the quality of people working in former is likely higher.
- newsclues 2y ago
  If companies want to pay a tax, say 100% of salary, because the employees skills are vital and the tax can fund education and training, I don’t see an issue.
api 2y ago
I've had a rule for many years: "it will be gamed, no exceptions." All systems, economies, markets, etc. will be gamed.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > I've had a rule for many years: "it will be gamed, no exceptions." No shit. The point is figuring out how. Both to game and to be gamed.
Clubber 2y ago
Shocker. We've known this for 20+ years now.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
“The manager visas, known as L-1As, are easier for employers to obtain and have fewer guardrails; for example, they lack even the minimal pay requirements that Congress has imposed for H-1B holders.” This isn’t a story about H-1B abuse. It’s a story about TCS avoiding even the minimal restrictions of H-1B by sending applicants through L-1A.
machined_gray 2y ago
This manager culture is prevailing in Indian outsourcing shops. Many talented and deserving candidates are taken back and such manager community is shipped out. Because of risky H1B visa, companies retain better talent in India to fix real issues. If you are planning to source, better to travel down to India (Bangalore/Hyderabad) and meet real heroes. There is a massive talent, IC roles are waiting to bring innovative and efficient solutions. What article states is 100% true, being involved with similar company, passed beyond my NDA agreement duration.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
bfrog 2y ago
h1b abuse you say? Shocking.
simonw 2y ago
This story is missing some details about L-1 visas - most notably that you have to work for a year in an overseas office for the company that has a US office before they can use an L-1 to transfer you. Wikipedia is useful on this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-1_visa https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-1_visa
- yftsui 2y ago
  The article talked about L1-A, not L1-B.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
thecleaner 2y ago
TCS filed 5k H1B visa applications last year, compared to 9.5k by Amazon and 8k by Infosys. Not sure why specifically TCS is being targeted.
- shagie 2y ago
  > New data show how TCS makes heavy use of employment visas reserved for managers. Ex-staffers say it was to get around H-1B rules. > ... > Kini and two other former TCS employees who filed similar lawsuits say the company repeatedly made improper use of special manager-level visas to hire front-line workers who had no management responsibilities. All three cases, which were filed under the federal False Claims Act, were dismissed before the allegations of visa fraud were examined in court; Kini’s is on appeal. The manager visas, known as L-1As, are easier for employers to obtain and have fewer guardrails; for example, they lack even the minimal pay requirements that Congress has imposed for H-1B holders. > Kini told Bloomberg that as Trump took office eight years ago executives at TCS, an arm of the Indian conglomerate the Tata Group, were trying to make their organizational charts match their visa applications, before any federal inspectors showed up on their doorstep. And then further down in the graphic: > Infosys and Cognizant, two similarly sized IT outsourcers, obtained 1,289 and 1,122 L-1As respectively between 2020 and 2023. > During the same period, TCS obtained 6,682 L-1As, the most across all US companies. That’s over five times more than the second highest recipient of L-1A visas, Infosys. Note the use of the L-1A visa rather than the H-1B visa. TCS is being targeted because they're abusing another visa class other than the H-1B visa.
thecleaner 2y ago
So its not H1B its L1A that they gamed. Anyways, hardly the job strealing scheme its touted to be. You gotta renew it every year and should the employer fire you, you lose the visa. Not a win-win for the employee.
bongoman42 2y ago
It's kind of interesting that Indian companies and H1-B abuse has been so cemented in people's minds that almost 80% of the comments here are about H1B abuse and what to do about it rather than the L1-A which this article is talking about. L1-A is a bigger source of fraud because there is fewer guardrails and most companies see it as a given if they want to move the employee. The only thing is you have to wait a year or so after hiring the employee to move them.
phendrenad2 2y ago
A coverup you say? With a paper trail? Hopefully someone goes to prison. But I doubt it.

djoldman 2y ago

https://archive.ph/HrHtV https://archive.ph/HrHtV

shashanoid 2y ago

This is common knowledge. Fucking pricks should be banned. Ruining H1B prospects for many deserving candidates

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Ruining H1B prospects for many deserving candidates Not a story about TCS abusing H-1Bs.
blased 2y ago
> Ruining H1B prospects for many deserving candidates H1B shouldn't exist, there is no shortage of domestic talent for what amounts to standard office work. The sort of things I've seen done by H1B is nothing short of appallingly bad which makes this whole debate all the more infuriating. Visas do exist for truly exceptional talent.

debarshri 2y ago

Theres nothing new here. Everyone knows, when you join outsourcing orgs in India, the goal is to go on-site. There is lot of internal politics and toxicity to be in that position to go onsite. Recently, I have seen these orgs. do the same in europe. They are just bombarding the system with applications. What is the motivation you ask? For billable resource, rates are different for resource when they are on-site vs off-site. Margins are better too.

cudgy 2y ago
This has been going on for decades and everyone in the industry knows it. Articles like these are simply propaganda to make it seem like something‘s being done about the issue. The system is and has been completely broken and, like most of the immigration policy in the US, it is a façade with the sole purpose of providing cheap labor for US corporations. There are plentiful capable US engineers available to be hired without the need for any of these programs other than the most exclusive programs for the top 0.1% of talent in the world. The same tired old argument is made in the unskilled immigration space as well. Companies scream that there’s no availability of workers to build houses, operate restaurants, tend farms, clean facilities, drive trucks, or virtually any other job. Does anyone wonder why the current administration is targeting the immigrants themselves and not the employers that hire them? They know that by targeting the immigrants it looks like they’re doing something, when really they are doing little to stem the problem. This whole problem largely goes away if employers are targeted directly for abusing the system, but it will never happen because cheap labor for corporations is the true driver.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > There are plentiful capable US engineers available to be hired without the need for any of these programs other than the most exclusive programs for the top 0.1% of talent in the world Yes for engineers, no for a lot of low-level work. The role of AI is being overstated. But there is a cap to IT salaries given remote working’s impact on the relative cost of offshoring. > Does anyone wonder why the current administration is targeting the immigrants themselves and not the employers that hire them? Absolutely. That said, the American consumer probably isn’t ready for the cost of food where everyone in the supply chain is paid a minimum wage and full benefits. (Counterfactual: the Netherlands.)
- linuxftw 2y ago
  Corporations exploiting cheap labor is a bipartisan issue in the US. There doesn't seem to be any knobs that can be turned to go after corporations for exploiting cheap but legal immigrant labor. What can any administration do? "You didn't break the law, but we don't like you" isn't going to stand up in court. What the current administration is trying to do that WILL impact corporations is raise tariffs. This will raise the cost of production overseas and on-shore some business, which will increase the demand for labor domestically. Many people argue that this will cause inflation. I don't think it will. Consumers cannot pay with more money than they have. If some country in Asia wants to sell their wares for $10 usd, and the consumer only wants to pay $9, guess what? They're only getting $9 for the goods. Many countries are promising reciprocal tariffs, though that's what the current administration is attempting to impose. This is also great for Americans. That means corporations have to sell goods overseas for less, meaning there is less competition for their products, which means Americans can buy for less. Corporations will HAVE to accept lower margins. It would be great if a bill could be passed to completely eliminate all white-collar immigration. We have enough talent in this country, and the other countries need it more.

techterrier 2y ago

no. shit. sherlock.

bluedino 2y ago

Here's what I don't get about TCS: I worked for a local Fortune 100 company, and 20 years ago they started outsourcing IT-related jobs to TCS (and a couple smaller staffing companies). Mostly in India and South America. Then about 10 years ago, the company dedicated almost an entire building to TCS, and TCS starting hiring contractors locally, and perhaps moved H1B's here to work on-site? What's the next step, start hiring off-shore again?

debarshri 2y ago
You have to maintain certain ratio to hire locally and move h1b employees. Quite sometimes, you need client facing employee to be a local. Also, what i have seen in europe is that, there is a mandate where in they have to publish the job locally and when they cannot find the employee, they can sponsor a visa and bring them into the country. However, what they do is, they would reject all the local candidates and claim that they could not find the candidate with right technology fit.

rupi 2y ago

The easiest way to solve this is to salary rank the H1B applicants. Those with the highest salaries get picked; not the ‘lucky ones’ that get through a lottery, which puts a PhD from MIT and a new hire at Tata from a no name school in India on equal footing. And I say this as someone who was on H1B. The current system benefits no one but these visa mills. Edit: for grammar

YetAnotherNick 2y ago
PhD from MIT could very well earn less than a mid range developer even though they are contributing much more to the society and country. Also salary war would mean companies face pressure to increase the salary of immigrants over the citizens.
- lazide 2y ago
  The massive pressure in these Visa systems is precisely because of the opposite issue - it’s cheaper (and gives the employer more leverage) to hire from abroad than pay someone local.
- aleph_minus_one 2y ago
  > PhD from MIT could very well earn less than a mid range developer even though they are contributing much more to the society and country. If this is true, the supply of such people should be reduced (i.e. don't hand out H1B visas to them), so that by the laws of supply and demand the salaries increase for them.
  - YetAnotherNick 2y ago
    The problem is that research is not as beneficial to the company at least in the short term. e.g. Google wouldn't be affected much if quantum computing divison is shut down, but would be affected if google ads stops showing, even though the quality of people working in former is likely higher.
newsclues 2y ago
If companies want to pay a tax, say 100% of salary, because the employees skills are vital and the tax can fund education and training, I don’t see an issue.

api 2y ago

I've had a rule for many years: "it will be gamed, no exceptions." All systems, economies, markets, etc. will be gamed.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> I've had a rule for many years: "it will be gamed, no exceptions." No shit. The point is figuring out how. Both to game and to be gamed.

Clubber 2y ago

Shocker. We've known this for 20+ years now.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

“The manager visas, known as L-1As, are easier for employers to obtain and have fewer guardrails; for example, they lack even the minimal pay requirements that Congress has imposed for H-1B holders.” This isn’t a story about H-1B abuse. It’s a story about TCS avoiding even the minimal restrictions of H-1B by sending applicants through L-1A.

machined_gray 2y ago

This manager culture is prevailing in Indian outsourcing shops. Many talented and deserving candidates are taken back and such manager community is shipped out. Because of risky H1B visa, companies retain better talent in India to fix real issues. If you are planning to source, better to travel down to India (Bangalore/Hyderabad) and meet real heroes. There is a massive talent, IC roles are waiting to bring innovative and efficient solutions. What article states is 100% true, being involved with similar company, passed beyond my NDA agreement duration.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

bfrog 2y ago

h1b abuse you say? Shocking.

simonw 2y ago

This story is missing some details about L-1 visas - most notably that you have to work for a year in an overseas office for the company that has a US office before they can use an L-1 to transfer you. Wikipedia is useful on this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-1_visa https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-1_visa

yftsui 2y ago
The article talked about L1-A, not L1-B.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

thecleaner 2y ago

TCS filed 5k H1B visa applications last year, compared to 9.5k by Amazon and 8k by Infosys. Not sure why specifically TCS is being targeted.

shagie 2y ago
> New data show how TCS makes heavy use of employment visas reserved for managers. Ex-staffers say it was to get around H-1B rules. > ... > Kini and two other former TCS employees who filed similar lawsuits say the company repeatedly made improper use of special manager-level visas to hire front-line workers who had no management responsibilities. All three cases, which were filed under the federal False Claims Act, were dismissed before the allegations of visa fraud were examined in court; Kini’s is on appeal. The manager visas, known as L-1As, are easier for employers to obtain and have fewer guardrails; for example, they lack even the minimal pay requirements that Congress has imposed for H-1B holders. > Kini told Bloomberg that as Trump took office eight years ago executives at TCS, an arm of the Indian conglomerate the Tata Group, were trying to make their organizational charts match their visa applications, before any federal inspectors showed up on their doorstep. And then further down in the graphic: > Infosys and Cognizant, two similarly sized IT outsourcers, obtained 1,289 and 1,122 L-1As respectively between 2020 and 2023. > During the same period, TCS obtained 6,682 L-1As, the most across all US companies. That’s over five times more than the second highest recipient of L-1A visas, Infosys. Note the use of the L-1A visa rather than the H-1B visa. TCS is being targeted because they're abusing another visa class other than the H-1B visa.

thecleaner 2y ago

So its not H1B its L1A that they gamed. Anyways, hardly the job strealing scheme its touted to be. You gotta renew it every year and should the employer fire you, you lose the visa. Not a win-win for the employee.

bongoman42 2y ago

It's kind of interesting that Indian companies and H1-B abuse has been so cemented in people's minds that almost 80% of the comments here are about H1B abuse and what to do about it rather than the L1-A which this article is talking about. L1-A is a bigger source of fraud because there is fewer guardrails and most companies see it as a given if they want to move the employee. The only thing is you have to wait a year or so after hiring the employee to move them.

phendrenad2 2y ago

A coverup you say? With a paper trail? Hopefully someone goes to prison. But I doubt it.