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DIY projects are always like that. But on a tangent, it is common to see comments here and elsewhere about how you don't need much possessions, hoarding, Kondo

by GuB-42 2y ago

DIY projects are always like that. But on a tangent, it is common to see comments here and elsewhere about how you don't need much possessions, hoarding, Kondo Marie, etc... But tools and supplies like screws, gaskets, electrical connectors, spare parts, etc... take a lot of space, and you will need them at some point. You don't know which one and when, but you will need it. Here the author already had a bunch of tools, and yet was missing a hole saw, a good drill, a large spanner, longer hoses, and a spade drill bit. He bought 3/5, but I guess he will keep them, it solved a real problem and he may need them for later, in case he moves again and have a similar problem, and maybe not with an available hardware store close by next time. And cumulatively, these things are not cheap, and hard to sell without a steep discount. Personally I would have bought the good drill BTW, it is expensive, but it is one of the most used tool, and it is a bit stupid to have a hole saw but no drill to fit it in. In the end, you find yourself needing to go to the hardware store less and less, but you end up with a workshop full of stuff. The alternatives are to pay tradesmen, which will cost you, and you may not have one available right now. Or, which in my experience is the most common, invite the friend with the tools to dinner ;)

KolmogorovComp 2y ago
> And cumulatively, these things are not cheap, and hard to sell without a steep discount The smart thing to do is to buy them second-hand already.
- GuB-42 2y ago
  It is smart and it isn't, there is a reason second-hand tools can be cheap. The problem is that when you are on a project, you need the thing right now, I am sure the author could have found what he needed for a fraction of the price second-hand, be he also wanted a working washing machine. Not spend a couple of weeks with dirty laundry waiting for the right tools to arrive. The local hardware store is expensive, but here, it is worth it. You can avoid this problem by planning ahead, but it requires knowing in advance what tools you will need, and the answer is essentially "everything". That's how you find yourself with a home workshop. If you want a home workshop, that's certainly the right thing to do, but it takes space and a bit of investment, even with good deals. And you may find yourself with tools you will never use. I know, my father left me with a bunch of quality tools he got for cheap. I am grateful for it, even though I didn't use most of them (he didn't either), some of them turned out to be useful, and the unused ones may find some use later. But it is also a good thing that I have a place for them, because that's a lot of stuff.
  - KolmogorovComp 2y ago
    When you need them right now for half a day, like the author you rent them, and eventually plan to buy them. Obviously I am talking about the expensive gear.
- bluGill 2y ago
  All too often second hand tools are worn out. There are some great deals out there, but tool restoration needs to be your hobby to make it worthwhile. My hobby is building things, not restoring tools and building the perfect shop. Nothing wrong with any of the above hobbies (I've restored a fair number of tools myself and spent a lot of time making my shop better), but you only live so long. Sometimes it is worth spending a few grand on a tool that will just work so you can get on with your 'real' projects.
  - kjs3 2y ago
    Don't dumpster dive, go to a pawn shop or buy the tool your mechanic wants to sell off cheap. My mechanic friends go to 'estate sales'/garage sales in upscale neighborhoods and consistently picks up the set of SnapOns or decent DeWalt power tool for pennies on the dollar because some rich bro wanted to tell his friends about how he only buys 'the best' and only used it once. One pal grabbed a ~15 year old Milwaukee reciprocating saw for us$20 a while back...it looked like the prev owner never even opened the case. OTOH...I guess that's really just trading the tool restoration hobby with the cruising yard sales for deals hobby.
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      Estate sales take a lot of time. Occasionally you'll find a treasure trove, but more often than not, they're just selling a dead person's junk. The best source of tools I've recently found was a local machine shop going out of business. I chatted briefly with the owner, who was retiring, and he could not find anyone else willing to learn the business/invest/take over. So he sold everything in his shop. Lots of good stuff.
      - kjs3 2y ago
        Congrats on the score (why don't I ever stumble on those), but I suspect the ratio of 'yard sales with good stuff' to 'retiring from machine shop and everything must go cheap' is pretty skewed.
rnewme 2y ago
Don't forget that for certain jobs cost of repair might be more than buying new one, that for a lot of jobs you'll get horrible service and will spend double time and money to get things done again properly etc.
any1 2y ago
> Personally I would have bought the good drill BTW, it is expensive, but it is one of the most used tool Yes, a good drill is a must-have for any home-owner. Anecdotally, I've owned a "prosumer grade" power drill ever since I bought my first apartment and I've used it a lot more than I originally anticipated. It's held up remarkably against a lot of use and abuse over a decade. Well, I've replaced the chuck and applied some epoxy to the plastic housing, but it still works. :) Is it a good drill? I'd say that it's not great, but it's been good enough. I've also bought some "consumer grade" tools and I would not recommend buying those even if you can buy it for cheaper than it costs to rent a proper tool. Sometimes, you get lucky with those tools, but most of the time, they are not worth the price of the box they come in. Often, the problem is that even though the tool doesn't exactly fall apart in your hands (this has happened to me), the precision of the result is just unworkable and you waste a bunch of time dealing with issues you otherwise wouldn't have. Buy once, cry once. ;)
- toss1 2y ago
  Absolutely! The one thing I've been taught by one of my mentors, and consistently found true, whether working on home, automobile, bicycles, or in shop, is: Get the best tool that you can for the job. E.g.: In powered tools, always go for the brushless motor version (lighter, better power, smoother, more durable). Better to buy 2nd hand Matco/Snap-On than consumer wrenches etc. than cheap hand tools (Sure the mid-price ones might also have a lifetime warranty, but the turnaround time won't help you in the field; get ones that will break more rarely in the first place). Whatever the situation, do a bit of research and find what is best. The good tools will be a joy to use every time and save a myriad of frustrated swear-fests over your lifetime. And they'll last longer. Buy once, cry once, indeed!
bluGill 2y ago
He had a good drill - just not one powerful enough for a whole saw which takes a lot more power. I have a drill that powerful, and I reach for my much less powerful drill anyway most of the time because when you don't need the power the lighter drill is better.
- kjs3 2y ago
  That's the thing I've learned about drills...you unfortunately need 2. One is the probably battery powered for doing random light drilling conveniently for relatively short periods of time around the house. Two is a probably corded, high power drill for everything else.
  - GuB-42 2y ago
    And in addition to that, there is a good chance for you to need a rotary hammer at some point. A regular drill in percussion mode can drill in stone or concrete in theory, but it will be 10 times the effort, if you can make it at all. Rotary hammers are not interchangeable with regular "high power" drills because the bits are mounted differently, though you can make do with a chuck adapter.
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      If you're regularly drilling metal, you might want an air drill, too. Which gives you an excuse to buy a quality air compressor, which justifies even more pneumatic tools...
      - kjs3 2y ago
        which justifies even more pneumatic tools There lies the path to madness...
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - abanana 2y ago
    Agreed. My 24V DeWalt cordless drill is the best tool I've ever bought, but tough masonry requires the pro-grade Bosch corded, although its price annoyed me when its chuck turned out to be crap. A friend, who worked at the place I bought that Bosch drill, chose to spend £14.99 on the cheapest corded drill he could find, then was surprised to find it didn't have enough power to actually drill a hole. It's the one type of tool I'd treat as an exception to the idea of buying cheap first, especially if you're young and moving into your first home - a good one will do its job well and last decades.
michaelt 2y ago
> And cumulatively, these things are not cheap, A few decades ago you'd be completely right - but these days, tools are cheaper than ever. Washing machine hose, £7 [1] Hole saws, £8 [2] Wrench £8 [3] Spade drill bits £6 [4] Adequate drill £35 [5] So £64 for the lot - about US$ 80. If you're in tech, the value of the time you spend driving to the store will probably be higher than all the tools you'll buy while you're there. And if you're thinking "Oh at those prices the tools will be low quality" I can assure you, they'll be good enough for this job. [1] https://www.toolstation.com/washing-machine-hose/p17946 https://www.toolstation.com/washing-machine-hose/p17946 [2] https://www.toolstation.com/holesaw-kit/p23014 https://www.toolstation.com/holesaw-kit/p23014 [3] https://www.toolstation.com/minotaur-water-pump-pliers/p83250 https://www.toolstation.com/minotaur-water-pump-pliers/p8325... [4] https://www.toolstation.com/flat-wood-drill-bit-set/p44945 https://www.toolstation.com/flat-wood-drill-bit-set/p44945 [5] https://www.toolstation.com/black-decker-500w-hammer-drill/p47968 https://www.toolstation.com/black-decker-500w-hammer-drill/p...
- subhro 2y ago
  > So £64 for the lot - about US$ 80. If you're in tech, the value of the time you spend driving to the store will probably be higher than all the tools you'll buy while you're there. Unless you are billing by the hour (ie in consulting), you are driving to the store during the time you would be parking your butt in the couch and viewing, reading or thinking about something that does not generate cash. At least that is what it is for me. If you literally lose money by driving to the store, your argument holds. > And if you're thinking "Oh at those prices the tools will be low quality" I can assure you, they'll be good enough for this job. Maybe they are, maybe they are not. I tinker with cars and motorcycles. Every single piece of my tools is Snap-On or something really comparable. If I use a cheap Chinese brand and round off a nut, that is really going to hurt. It will hurt more than what it hurt to buy a socket set for close to $200. Also, if you are approaching something the first time, low quality tools will get you bad experience that will resist, maybe prevent you from trying it again. I might be one of those weird ones, but for me, Buy once, cry once.
  - andiareso 2y ago
fnord77 2y ago
Many public libraries have tools to lend. At least in California.
JoshTriplett 2y ago
> The alternatives are to pay tradesmen, which will cost you, and you may not have one available right now. The flipside is that they will probably already have the tools they need, or know exactly where to get them, and typically be able to solve the problem in 0-1 trips to stores. And then, when you're done, you don't need to store a bunch of tools and parts. DIY makes sense if you either 1) enjoy it or 2) are in a position to need to spend your time to save money (and carefully evaluate tradeoffs about when it would cost you more money to DIY because a professional will have everything they need and you don't and won't need it again).
- subhro 2y ago
  > DIY makes sense if you either 1) enjoy it or 2) are in a position to need to spend your time to save money (and carefully evaluate tradeoffs about when it would cost you more money to DIY because a professional will have everything they need and you don't and won't need it again). First hand experience. I have a 2 story house. I was going crazy with people walking upstairs while I was trying to work in my office downstairs. Got hold of a flooring guy who has hundreds of glowing positive reviews, and offered multiple references. He wanted to rip out the carpet and screw the floorboard to the joists, more. Got his work contract and added the clause that he will not get paid unless the sounds stay gone for 3 months after the job. Paid a premium for the clause. The creaking came back in 2 months and the impact noise never went away. Got hold of another guy and he said, sorry can't do anything about the noise beyond what is already done. The third one said the same as well. Finally got frustrated enough to do my own research and came up with materials and techniques that I had to "import" from California to Washington. Bought a bunch of tools. Now I have no noise, and as a bonus, ran conduit in the floor to have OS2 fiber everywhere in the house. DIY is not always about saving money. It is also about getting the job done so it stays done and not doing the bare minimum to make it legal and to get paid.
  - mschild 2y ago
    Unfortunately, I have made the same experience. We bought an old (1930s) 2 story single-family home last year which needed to be gutted almost entirely. Except the plumber, all trade folks we had tried to cut corners and delivered subpar quality. Even the ones that came recommended. We did a lot of the destruction work ourselves as that was not complicated or dangerous (under the guidance of a structural engineer and proper protective equipment). Our walls are entirely out of brick and not 100% straight. Our plasterer somehow managed to make them curvy. He is licensed in my country and not some general handyman. We had to sand down the walls ourselves to get them straight. He tried to charge us for that. Electrician started the job but now never shows up. We still have some of his tools he left here, but won't answer texts or calls. Family member thankfully is an electrician but doesn't live close to us. We paid them to plan everything for us, we'd install it, they'd come check and do the mains connection. Drywallers put drywall on walls that shouldn't have any. We provided them plans that clearly detailed instructions. They admitted they were wrong but still wanted to charge us for the work. We ended up doing most the work ourselves. Not necessarily because we wanted to, but calling, organizing, and ultimately arguing and running after the trades folks was such a pain in the ass. At some point I decided to keep track of much time I spent on quality checks and running after them and I figured out it wouldve taken me less time (and money) to just do it myself from the get go.
xattt 2y ago
I’ve had similar experiences as the author, so I’ve started to “overbuy/overprovision” at the store for my projects. If I end up not needing a part, I can return it. If I do, I saved myself a trip. I don’t know if there are any analogies to software development.
- recursive 2y ago
  > If I end up not needing a part, I can return it. If I do, I saved myself a trip. Returning it also cost you a trip.
  - genewitch 2y ago
    Nah. This is fallacious. The return isn't time sensitive (within reason, usually 14-30 days most places here) whereas "I need pipe dope or we can't shower" is time sensitive.
- Pxtl 2y ago
  There is, but it's awful: The "just use the giant library/framework to solve the small problem" approach. Like, I need to store a value or two for this local filesystem-oriented application. Not a lot, just like a "time since last check". YAGNI solution: just dump json to a file. Frameworky solution: Sqlite. You'll eventually need more, and Sqlite is not significantly harder than dumping json to a file, although it feels heavier. Like starting up a small web-project by pulling in webpack and react. If you don't pull in the frameworks ASAP, eventually you'll accidentally find yourself NIHing yourself into Greenspun's Rule. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun%27s_tenth_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun%27s_tenth_rule
naet 2y ago
I'm lucky enough to live about 5 minutes from multiple different tool libraries. They've always had any tools I need in surprisingly good condition. Makes a lot of sense for people like me that wouldn't need a hole saw more than once or twice a year at most to share one with the community instead of buying it myself. If I was using something all the time though I would definitely buy my own. I have always been a little envious of friends with a great workshop of tools and supplies in their garage. I don't have the space for it or do enough tool related work to personally justify it for myself though.
LeifCarrotson 2y ago
Those workshop tools, much like automotive equipment, yard tools, or kitchen supplies, do not fit neatly in a Marie Kondo de-cluttering "Get rid of it if you haven't used it in 6 months" model. You may not have used a 60mm hole saw, ball joint press spacer, trenching spade, or the coarse insert for your cheese grater in 6 months, but that doesn't mean you should get rid of that item. Instead, I think of it more as the capacity to do arbitrary tasks with those tool sets. Each task will require a random assortment of sub-components, and getting any single task done efficiently is likely to require a pretty well-stocked workshop. One way to solve this problem is by delegating it to tradesmen, but I personally think that cooking, home repair, gardening, and (to an increasingly smaller extent) automotive maintenance are things that well-rounded homeowners should be able to do the basics (which requires having the tools) by themselves. I do wish that our society did a better job of sharing these supplies - we've got what I consider to be a good relationship with our neighbors, and yet everyone on my street has their own cordless drill, their own lawnmower, their own Kitchenaid, their own wrenches, and so on, even though the vast majority of these objects are only used for at most a few hours per month. All of them are taking up space, all of them are slowly deteriorating due to entropy/rust/general obsolesence, all of them cost money...and yet each household must to have their own.
- nuancebydefault 2y ago
  The tragedy of the commons... If you keep tools for several families to use... when you need one of them, it either cannot be found or is broken. This is often because lack of maintenance, administration, knowledge and willingness to read the manual.
- NegativeLatency 2y ago
  Might be a tool library by you if you live in the right city: https://www.neptl.org https://www.neptl.org
- jmb99 2y ago
  > and (to an increasingly smaller extent) automotive maintenance I disagree, with the cost of maintenance these days. The cheapest shops in my area (large city, Canada) charge $110/h, reputable (and/or German) charge $125-$150/h, and dealerships start there and go up. I know people paying $100 for a seasonal tire change (swapping rims, not dismount/remount), plus storage for your off-season tires. A good jack and stand set is $180 ish, and you can either buy a breaker bar for $30 or an impact for $100, along with a torque wrench for $40, and be set for life for tire changes. The tools will pay for themselves in a year and then save you every year thereafter. And you now have the basics to do the easy-to-get-to stuff like brakes and suspension components, saving you even more. Of all the trades, automotive is one of the easiest (and cheapest) to start doing yourself, aside from maybe plumbing. Especially if you have a second car to rely on in case you’re not confident in your ability to get a job done on time.
userbinator 2y ago
comments here and elsewhere about how you don't need much possessions From the advocates of "you will own nothing and be happy".
larusso 2y ago
I assembled a large collection of tools over the years. And I‘m always happy when a project has a surprise moment like described in the article and I have just the right tool for that. In the other case I tend to make sure it won’t happen again. And on that note. I tend to buy professional grade tools. Not just because there mainly better, have more features or are more accurate it’s also that they come with a higher Garantie and being able to buy spare parts if needed is an added bonus.
bityard 2y ago
The primary reason I do most of my DIY home repair is because 9 times out of 10, I have been severely underwhelmed with the quality and workmanship of the "professionals" I have hired. Even armed with a written scope of work and diagrams, and assurances that they will do the work exactly how I'm asking, they still just do whatever they want and then hand me the bill. Over the years, I have accumulated the tools (and importantly: knowledge!) to do almost any home repair or remodeling. The main things I won't touch are those that require extensive experience to get right (drywall mudding a whole room), those that require a whole team (replacing a roof), or those that require big expensive machines (a clogged sewer line with the clog halfway out to the road).

by GuB-42 2y ago

KolmogorovComp 2y ago

> And cumulatively, these things are not cheap, and hard to sell without a steep discount The smart thing to do is to buy them second-hand already.

GuB-42 2y ago
It is smart and it isn't, there is a reason second-hand tools can be cheap. The problem is that when you are on a project, you need the thing right now, I am sure the author could have found what he needed for a fraction of the price second-hand, be he also wanted a working washing machine. Not spend a couple of weeks with dirty laundry waiting for the right tools to arrive. The local hardware store is expensive, but here, it is worth it. You can avoid this problem by planning ahead, but it requires knowing in advance what tools you will need, and the answer is essentially "everything". That's how you find yourself with a home workshop. If you want a home workshop, that's certainly the right thing to do, but it takes space and a bit of investment, even with good deals. And you may find yourself with tools you will never use. I know, my father left me with a bunch of quality tools he got for cheap. I am grateful for it, even though I didn't use most of them (he didn't either), some of them turned out to be useful, and the unused ones may find some use later. But it is also a good thing that I have a place for them, because that's a lot of stuff.
- KolmogorovComp 2y ago
  When you need them right now for half a day, like the author you rent them, and eventually plan to buy them. Obviously I am talking about the expensive gear.
bluGill 2y ago
All too often second hand tools are worn out. There are some great deals out there, but tool restoration needs to be your hobby to make it worthwhile. My hobby is building things, not restoring tools and building the perfect shop. Nothing wrong with any of the above hobbies (I've restored a fair number of tools myself and spent a lot of time making my shop better), but you only live so long. Sometimes it is worth spending a few grand on a tool that will just work so you can get on with your 'real' projects.
- kjs3 2y ago
  Don't dumpster dive, go to a pawn shop or buy the tool your mechanic wants to sell off cheap. My mechanic friends go to 'estate sales'/garage sales in upscale neighborhoods and consistently picks up the set of SnapOns or decent DeWalt power tool for pennies on the dollar because some rich bro wanted to tell his friends about how he only buys 'the best' and only used it once. One pal grabbed a ~15 year old Milwaukee reciprocating saw for us$20 a while back...it looked like the prev owner never even opened the case. OTOH...I guess that's really just trading the tool restoration hobby with the cruising yard sales for deals hobby.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    Estate sales take a lot of time. Occasionally you'll find a treasure trove, but more often than not, they're just selling a dead person's junk. The best source of tools I've recently found was a local machine shop going out of business. I chatted briefly with the owner, who was retiring, and he could not find anyone else willing to learn the business/invest/take over. So he sold everything in his shop. Lots of good stuff.
    - kjs3 2y ago
      Congrats on the score (why don't I ever stumble on those), but I suspect the ratio of 'yard sales with good stuff' to 'retiring from machine shop and everything must go cheap' is pretty skewed.

rnewme 2y ago

Don't forget that for certain jobs cost of repair might be more than buying new one, that for a lot of jobs you'll get horrible service and will spend double time and money to get things done again properly etc.

any1 2y ago

> Personally I would have bought the good drill BTW, it is expensive, but it is one of the most used tool Yes, a good drill is a must-have for any home-owner. Anecdotally, I've owned a "prosumer grade" power drill ever since I bought my first apartment and I've used it a lot more than I originally anticipated. It's held up remarkably against a lot of use and abuse over a decade. Well, I've replaced the chuck and applied some epoxy to the plastic housing, but it still works. :) Is it a good drill? I'd say that it's not great, but it's been good enough. I've also bought some "consumer grade" tools and I would not recommend buying those even if you can buy it for cheaper than it costs to rent a proper tool. Sometimes, you get lucky with those tools, but most of the time, they are not worth the price of the box they come in. Often, the problem is that even though the tool doesn't exactly fall apart in your hands (this has happened to me), the precision of the result is just unworkable and you waste a bunch of time dealing with issues you otherwise wouldn't have. Buy once, cry once. ;)

toss1 2y ago
Absolutely! The one thing I've been taught by one of my mentors, and consistently found true, whether working on home, automobile, bicycles, or in shop, is: Get the best tool that you can for the job. E.g.: In powered tools, always go for the brushless motor version (lighter, better power, smoother, more durable). Better to buy 2nd hand Matco/Snap-On than consumer wrenches etc. than cheap hand tools (Sure the mid-price ones might also have a lifetime warranty, but the turnaround time won't help you in the field; get ones that will break more rarely in the first place). Whatever the situation, do a bit of research and find what is best. The good tools will be a joy to use every time and save a myriad of frustrated swear-fests over your lifetime. And they'll last longer. Buy once, cry once, indeed!

bluGill 2y ago

He had a good drill - just not one powerful enough for a whole saw which takes a lot more power. I have a drill that powerful, and I reach for my much less powerful drill anyway most of the time because when you don't need the power the lighter drill is better.

kjs3 2y ago
That's the thing I've learned about drills...you unfortunately need 2. One is the probably battery powered for doing random light drilling conveniently for relatively short periods of time around the house. Two is a probably corded, high power drill for everything else.
- GuB-42 2y ago
  And in addition to that, there is a good chance for you to need a rotary hammer at some point. A regular drill in percussion mode can drill in stone or concrete in theory, but it will be 10 times the effort, if you can make it at all. Rotary hammers are not interchangeable with regular "high power" drills because the bits are mounted differently, though you can make do with a chuck adapter.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    If you're regularly drilling metal, you might want an air drill, too. Which gives you an excuse to buy a quality air compressor, which justifies even more pneumatic tools...
    - kjs3 2y ago
      which justifies even more pneumatic tools There lies the path to madness...
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- abanana 2y ago
  Agreed. My 24V DeWalt cordless drill is the best tool I've ever bought, but tough masonry requires the pro-grade Bosch corded, although its price annoyed me when its chuck turned out to be crap. A friend, who worked at the place I bought that Bosch drill, chose to spend £14.99 on the cheapest corded drill he could find, then was surprised to find it didn't have enough power to actually drill a hole. It's the one type of tool I'd treat as an exception to the idea of buying cheap first, especially if you're young and moving into your first home - a good one will do its job well and last decades.

michaelt 2y ago

> And cumulatively, these things are not cheap, A few decades ago you'd be completely right - but these days, tools are cheaper than ever. Washing machine hose, £7 [1] Hole saws, £8 [2] Wrench £8 [3] Spade drill bits £6 [4] Adequate drill £35 [5] So £64 for the lot - about US$ 80. If you're in tech, the value of the time you spend driving to the store will probably be higher than all the tools you'll buy while you're there. And if you're thinking "Oh at those prices the tools will be low quality" I can assure you, they'll be good enough for this job. [1] https://www.toolstation.com/washing-machine-hose/p17946 https://www.toolstation.com/washing-machine-hose/p17946 [2] https://www.toolstation.com/holesaw-kit/p23014 https://www.toolstation.com/holesaw-kit/p23014 [3] https://www.toolstation.com/minotaur-water-pump-pliers/p83250 https://www.toolstation.com/minotaur-water-pump-pliers/p8325... [4] https://www.toolstation.com/flat-wood-drill-bit-set/p44945 https://www.toolstation.com/flat-wood-drill-bit-set/p44945 [5] https://www.toolstation.com/black-decker-500w-hammer-drill/p47968 https://www.toolstation.com/black-decker-500w-hammer-drill/p...

subhro 2y ago
> So £64 for the lot - about US$ 80. If you're in tech, the value of the time you spend driving to the store will probably be higher than all the tools you'll buy while you're there. Unless you are billing by the hour (ie in consulting), you are driving to the store during the time you would be parking your butt in the couch and viewing, reading or thinking about something that does not generate cash. At least that is what it is for me. If you literally lose money by driving to the store, your argument holds. > And if you're thinking "Oh at those prices the tools will be low quality" I can assure you, they'll be good enough for this job. Maybe they are, maybe they are not. I tinker with cars and motorcycles. Every single piece of my tools is Snap-On or something really comparable. If I use a cheap Chinese brand and round off a nut, that is really going to hurt. It will hurt more than what it hurt to buy a socket set for close to $200. Also, if you are approaching something the first time, low quality tools will get you bad experience that will resist, maybe prevent you from trying it again. I might be one of those weird ones, but for me, Buy once, cry once.
- andiareso 2y ago

fnord77 2y ago

Many public libraries have tools to lend. At least in California.

JoshTriplett 2y ago

> The alternatives are to pay tradesmen, which will cost you, and you may not have one available right now. The flipside is that they will probably already have the tools they need, or know exactly where to get them, and typically be able to solve the problem in 0-1 trips to stores. And then, when you're done, you don't need to store a bunch of tools and parts. DIY makes sense if you either 1) enjoy it or 2) are in a position to need to spend your time to save money (and carefully evaluate tradeoffs about when it would cost you more money to DIY because a professional will have everything they need and you don't and won't need it again).

subhro 2y ago
> DIY makes sense if you either 1) enjoy it or 2) are in a position to need to spend your time to save money (and carefully evaluate tradeoffs about when it would cost you more money to DIY because a professional will have everything they need and you don't and won't need it again). First hand experience. I have a 2 story house. I was going crazy with people walking upstairs while I was trying to work in my office downstairs. Got hold of a flooring guy who has hundreds of glowing positive reviews, and offered multiple references. He wanted to rip out the carpet and screw the floorboard to the joists, more. Got his work contract and added the clause that he will not get paid unless the sounds stay gone for 3 months after the job. Paid a premium for the clause. The creaking came back in 2 months and the impact noise never went away. Got hold of another guy and he said, sorry can't do anything about the noise beyond what is already done. The third one said the same as well. Finally got frustrated enough to do my own research and came up with materials and techniques that I had to "import" from California to Washington. Bought a bunch of tools. Now I have no noise, and as a bonus, ran conduit in the floor to have OS2 fiber everywhere in the house. DIY is not always about saving money. It is also about getting the job done so it stays done and not doing the bare minimum to make it legal and to get paid.
- mschild 2y ago
  Unfortunately, I have made the same experience. We bought an old (1930s) 2 story single-family home last year which needed to be gutted almost entirely. Except the plumber, all trade folks we had tried to cut corners and delivered subpar quality. Even the ones that came recommended. We did a lot of the destruction work ourselves as that was not complicated or dangerous (under the guidance of a structural engineer and proper protective equipment). Our walls are entirely out of brick and not 100% straight. Our plasterer somehow managed to make them curvy. He is licensed in my country and not some general handyman. We had to sand down the walls ourselves to get them straight. He tried to charge us for that. Electrician started the job but now never shows up. We still have some of his tools he left here, but won't answer texts or calls. Family member thankfully is an electrician but doesn't live close to us. We paid them to plan everything for us, we'd install it, they'd come check and do the mains connection. Drywallers put drywall on walls that shouldn't have any. We provided them plans that clearly detailed instructions. They admitted they were wrong but still wanted to charge us for the work. We ended up doing most the work ourselves. Not necessarily because we wanted to, but calling, organizing, and ultimately arguing and running after the trades folks was such a pain in the ass. At some point I decided to keep track of much time I spent on quality checks and running after them and I figured out it wouldve taken me less time (and money) to just do it myself from the get go.

xattt 2y ago

I’ve had similar experiences as the author, so I’ve started to “overbuy/overprovision” at the store for my projects. If I end up not needing a part, I can return it. If I do, I saved myself a trip. I don’t know if there are any analogies to software development.

recursive 2y ago
> If I end up not needing a part, I can return it. If I do, I saved myself a trip. Returning it also cost you a trip.
- genewitch 2y ago
  Nah. This is fallacious. The return isn't time sensitive (within reason, usually 14-30 days most places here) whereas "I need pipe dope or we can't shower" is time sensitive.
Pxtl 2y ago
There is, but it's awful: The "just use the giant library/framework to solve the small problem" approach. Like, I need to store a value or two for this local filesystem-oriented application. Not a lot, just like a "time since last check". YAGNI solution: just dump json to a file. Frameworky solution: Sqlite. You'll eventually need more, and Sqlite is not significantly harder than dumping json to a file, although it feels heavier. Like starting up a small web-project by pulling in webpack and react. If you don't pull in the frameworks ASAP, eventually you'll accidentally find yourself NIHing yourself into Greenspun's Rule. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun%27s_tenth_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun%27s_tenth_rule

naet 2y ago

I'm lucky enough to live about 5 minutes from multiple different tool libraries. They've always had any tools I need in surprisingly good condition. Makes a lot of sense for people like me that wouldn't need a hole saw more than once or twice a year at most to share one with the community instead of buying it myself. If I was using something all the time though I would definitely buy my own. I have always been a little envious of friends with a great workshop of tools and supplies in their garage. I don't have the space for it or do enough tool related work to personally justify it for myself though.

LeifCarrotson 2y ago

Those workshop tools, much like automotive equipment, yard tools, or kitchen supplies, do not fit neatly in a Marie Kondo de-cluttering "Get rid of it if you haven't used it in 6 months" model. You may not have used a 60mm hole saw, ball joint press spacer, trenching spade, or the coarse insert for your cheese grater in 6 months, but that doesn't mean you should get rid of that item. Instead, I think of it more as the capacity to do arbitrary tasks with those tool sets. Each task will require a random assortment of sub-components, and getting any single task done efficiently is likely to require a pretty well-stocked workshop. One way to solve this problem is by delegating it to tradesmen, but I personally think that cooking, home repair, gardening, and (to an increasingly smaller extent) automotive maintenance are things that well-rounded homeowners should be able to do the basics (which requires having the tools) by themselves. I do wish that our society did a better job of sharing these supplies - we've got what I consider to be a good relationship with our neighbors, and yet everyone on my street has their own cordless drill, their own lawnmower, their own Kitchenaid, their own wrenches, and so on, even though the vast majority of these objects are only used for at most a few hours per month. All of them are taking up space, all of them are slowly deteriorating due to entropy/rust/general obsolesence, all of them cost money...and yet each household must to have their own.

nuancebydefault 2y ago
The tragedy of the commons... If you keep tools for several families to use... when you need one of them, it either cannot be found or is broken. This is often because lack of maintenance, administration, knowledge and willingness to read the manual.
NegativeLatency 2y ago
Might be a tool library by you if you live in the right city: https://www.neptl.org https://www.neptl.org
jmb99 2y ago
> and (to an increasingly smaller extent) automotive maintenance I disagree, with the cost of maintenance these days. The cheapest shops in my area (large city, Canada) charge $110/h, reputable (and/or German) charge $125-$150/h, and dealerships start there and go up. I know people paying $100 for a seasonal tire change (swapping rims, not dismount/remount), plus storage for your off-season tires. A good jack and stand set is $180 ish, and you can either buy a breaker bar for $30 or an impact for $100, along with a torque wrench for $40, and be set for life for tire changes. The tools will pay for themselves in a year and then save you every year thereafter. And you now have the basics to do the easy-to-get-to stuff like brakes and suspension components, saving you even more. Of all the trades, automotive is one of the easiest (and cheapest) to start doing yourself, aside from maybe plumbing. Especially if you have a second car to rely on in case you’re not confident in your ability to get a job done on time.

userbinator 2y ago

comments here and elsewhere about how you don't need much possessions From the advocates of "you will own nothing and be happy".

larusso 2y ago

I assembled a large collection of tools over the years. And I‘m always happy when a project has a surprise moment like described in the article and I have just the right tool for that. In the other case I tend to make sure it won’t happen again. And on that note. I tend to buy professional grade tools. Not just because there mainly better, have more features or are more accurate it’s also that they come with a higher Garantie and being able to buy spare parts if needed is an added bonus.

bityard 2y ago

The primary reason I do most of my DIY home repair is because 9 times out of 10, I have been severely underwhelmed with the quality and workmanship of the "professionals" I have hired. Even armed with a written scope of work and diagrams, and assurances that they will do the work exactly how I'm asking, they still just do whatever they want and then hand me the bill. Over the years, I have accumulated the tools (and importantly: knowledge!) to do almost any home repair or remodeling. The main things I won't touch are those that require extensive experience to get right (drywall mudding a whole room), those that require a whole team (replacing a roof), or those that require big expensive machines (a clogged sewer line with the clog halfway out to the road).