7 ms·

> So what do we do about it when we don’t even know what questions to ask before setting out on any software project, especially one that ostensibly seems routi

> So what do we do about it when we don’t even know what questions to ask before setting out on any software project, especially one that ostensibly seems routine? Well, taking the story as metaphor a bit further… there were several opportunities to learn more about which questions to ask, without so many trips to the hardware store. I’m surprised not to see any mention of that in this section about lessons learned. Coming back to the topic of software, I’m not opposed to exploratory work as a requirements-gathering exercise. But at a certain point it bears a lot more fruit to stop doing and start finding out what you don’t know as a dedicated effort. When you can take one figurative trip to the hardware store with a big shopping list and set of open questions, you’re bound to spend more of your labor in an effective and relatively straightforward way.

afro88 2y ago
Yes, I was surprised that the learning wasn't along the lines of "measure twice, cut once". But also, he trusted his dependent team / vendor too much (the new home builder) and assumed that part was done correctly when he started. I feel like in the software world, if you're integrating an SDK into a new project for example, you'd look around a bit to confirm you can integrate it like you have in the past on older projects. There's nothing wrong with poking around the codebase a bit, or doing a proof of concept, to get a better handle on the estimate.
TeMPOraL 2y ago
Honestly, I feel the real lesson here is that, if you want accurate estimates, the job needs to be done end-to-end by someone who's done the exact same thing before - and because things change, "before" really means "recently". If you're not going to be moving houses every couple months, this means passing the buck to someone else. That is, the job needs to be done by some professional installers, because they're in a position to do the same thing day after day, and can gradually adapt to variance and evolution of products (and plumbing, and homes). Also, and that's a second step, from the POV of those installers, it would be ideal if they could also pick the washing machine for you - they'd just pick pick the minimum amount of machines[0] to cover common scenarios, and specialize in installing them. That would significantly improve accuracy of their estimates. But this is, unfortunately, how we get to turning everything in life into a service, and it doesn't sit well with me. I'm willing to accept bad estimates if it means I get to pick and own stuff. After all, this is the model ISPs operate on, and we all know what kind of hardware they install. My first criterion for picking ISPs has always been whether they let you put your own router in place of theirs.
- qwertox 2y ago
  In Germany this wouldn't be possible due to shortage of skilled workers. You'd have to settle with one who at least might have a bigger toolbox, but they wouldn't to an end-to-end analysis beforehand and would prefer to get the job done fast even if sluggishly. Recently I asked for quotes on adding a power socket to a din-rail fuse box. Easy job: cut two cables to proper length, screw one of them to the neutral rail, use a splitter after the fuse to get phase. "We don't do that, ask your power company". "Don't have time, 80€ before taxes, in 8 months". I would do it myself, but it's in the shared area of an apartment house and the slightest issue with it would void pretty much all my insurances.
  - mewpmewp2 2y ago
    > "We don't do that, ask your power company" I've been getting a lot of the same, from reputable companies, and then if I want a single person to get it all done, I have to have a connection I can definitely trust and does quality?
  - immibis 2y ago
    The flip side is: change careers to electrical trade and you won't have a shortage of work for a while.
- michaelt 2y ago
  > the job needs to be done by some professional installers, because they're in a position to do the same thing day after day, Possibly - it depends on the situation. In my experience, the transaction costs of getting people in can be pretty high. After all, if a guy has to drive 40 minutes to me, perform a 10 minute job, then drive 40 minutes back - I gotta expect to pay for 90 minutes of his time. And if some install jobs involve lifting a 160 lbs machine by hand, that's a two-man job - now I'm paying for two guys for 90 minutes. Or they want to see the job to check if it needs two guys before they can quote accurately - meaning another round trip. Oh, and my job doesn't let me work from home, so I gotta take a day off work.
  - mewpmewp2 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

afro88 2y ago

Yes, I was surprised that the learning wasn't along the lines of "measure twice, cut once". But also, he trusted his dependent team / vendor too much (the new home builder) and assumed that part was done correctly when he started. I feel like in the software world, if you're integrating an SDK into a new project for example, you'd look around a bit to confirm you can integrate it like you have in the past on older projects. There's nothing wrong with poking around the codebase a bit, or doing a proof of concept, to get a better handle on the estimate.

TeMPOraL 2y ago

Honestly, I feel the real lesson here is that, if you want accurate estimates, the job needs to be done end-to-end by someone who's done the exact same thing before - and because things change, "before" really means "recently". If you're not going to be moving houses every couple months, this means passing the buck to someone else. That is, the job needs to be done by some professional installers, because they're in a position to do the same thing day after day, and can gradually adapt to variance and evolution of products (and plumbing, and homes). Also, and that's a second step, from the POV of those installers, it would be ideal if they could also pick the washing machine for you - they'd just pick pick the minimum amount of machines[0] to cover common scenarios, and specialize in installing them. That would significantly improve accuracy of their estimates. But this is, unfortunately, how we get to turning everything in life into a service, and it doesn't sit well with me. I'm willing to accept bad estimates if it means I get to pick and own stuff. After all, this is the model ISPs operate on, and we all know what kind of hardware they install. My first criterion for picking ISPs has always been whether they let you put your own router in place of theirs.

qwertox 2y ago
In Germany this wouldn't be possible due to shortage of skilled workers. You'd have to settle with one who at least might have a bigger toolbox, but they wouldn't to an end-to-end analysis beforehand and would prefer to get the job done fast even if sluggishly. Recently I asked for quotes on adding a power socket to a din-rail fuse box. Easy job: cut two cables to proper length, screw one of them to the neutral rail, use a splitter after the fuse to get phase. "We don't do that, ask your power company". "Don't have time, 80€ before taxes, in 8 months". I would do it myself, but it's in the shared area of an apartment house and the slightest issue with it would void pretty much all my insurances.
- mewpmewp2 2y ago
  > "We don't do that, ask your power company" I've been getting a lot of the same, from reputable companies, and then if I want a single person to get it all done, I have to have a connection I can definitely trust and does quality?
- immibis 2y ago
  The flip side is: change careers to electrical trade and you won't have a shortage of work for a while.
michaelt 2y ago
> the job needs to be done by some professional installers, because they're in a position to do the same thing day after day, Possibly - it depends on the situation. In my experience, the transaction costs of getting people in can be pretty high. After all, if a guy has to drive 40 minutes to me, perform a 10 minute job, then drive 40 minutes back - I gotta expect to pay for 90 minutes of his time. And if some install jobs involve lifting a 160 lbs machine by hand, that's a two-man job - now I'm paying for two guys for 90 minutes. Or they want to see the job to check if it needs two guys before they can quote accurately - meaning another round trip. Oh, and my job doesn't let me work from home, so I gotta take a day off work.
- mewpmewp2 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]