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Police arrest apparent leader of 'Zizian' group
- aduffy 2y agoI keep seeing this bits and pieces of this story pop up, does anyone have an ELI5 on what the Ziz cult is?
- throwcatowayne 2y agohttps://zizians.info/ https://zizians.info/
- emmelaich 2y agohttps://zizians.info/ https://zizians.info/ A warning about them, started over five years ago.
- decimalenough 2y agoThis Wiki article is badly named, but it's still the best ELI5 overview I've seen: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_David_Maland https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_David_Maland
- idlewords 2y agoHave either of you ever met a five year old?
- zozbot234 2y agoInteresting challenge: put all of this crazy information into a LLM prompt and ask it to explain everything as if to a real five year old. Maybe the newer "Deep research" models could do it. (See also https://xkcd.com/547/ https://xkcd.com/547/ of course.)
- computerthings 2y ago[flagged]
- nl 2y agoThis works of course. I asked chat GPT to "ELI5 this:" and pasted the text from https://maxread.substack.com/p/the-zizians-and-the-rationalist-death https://maxread.substack.com/p/the-zizians-and-the-rationali... This is what it created: A journalist wrote a long article about a weird, extreme group called the “Zizians.” They’re a mix of radical thinkers from the Rationalist movement—a community of people obsessed with using logic to solve big problems, like AI safety or moral philosophy. The Zizians, led by a person named Ziz, took these ideas to an extreme, combining them with unusual beliefs about morality, consciousness, and even Star Wars-like "Sith" philosophy. This group has been connected to multiple violent incidents, including murders and standoffs with police. Some of its members have been arrested, gone into hiding, or mysteriously died. The author explains that Rationalist groups, while not inherently violent, often attract highly analytical but socially disconnected people, making them vulnerable to cult-like thinking. The article also touches on how similar communities—like Effective Altruists and AI researchers—can sometimes create intense, insular environments that lead to extreme behavior. Basically, the Zizians are an example of how even smart, logical people can end up in very bizarre and dangerous places when they take ideas too far.
- spondylosaurus 2y agoI tried to write a genuine ELI5 explanation but I'm not sure it's possible unless you can assume a five-year-old knows what "philosophy" means, lol. You could say "a group of people think that being smart gives them magic powers, and that most people are evil zombies, but they think everyone in their own special group is good and can do whatever they want" but you lose a lot of nuance.
- chatmasta 2y agoYou lose a lot of nuance but that’s actually a pretty good explanation because it reveals the obvious parallels to nearly every mainstream religion throughout history.
- gosub100 2y agoAh, the "no true 5-year-old" argument...
- dahdum 2y ago> Have either of you ever met a five year old? I expect you are simply trolling, but for those that are not aware ELI5 has been defined in popular culture for well over a decade. https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/ https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/
- aaron695 2y ago[dead]
- lupusreal 2y ago> following a traffic stop, United States Border Patrol agent David Maland was killed in a shootout with Teresa Youngblut, who was wounded, and German national Ophelia Bauckholt, who also died in the shootout. The pair were traveling south on Interstate 91 in Coventry, Vermont, when they were pulled over as part of a traffic stop.[1] The two were put under "periodic surveillance" nearly one week before the shooting after they were reported to be armed and wearing all-black tactical clothing when checking in to their hotel. So these guys were being surveilled for being armed and decked out in tactical gear, so the authorities send in a lone traffic cop to pull them over? And predictably, the cop is killed. This isn't the first time I've heard of this kind of thing happening. That agent was basically set up to die, sacrificed like a pawn by his superiors playing a sick game of chess. The same thing happened to Darian Jarott, who was directed by his boss to arrest an armed and dangerous meth smuggler without being briefed of the danger, despite the fact that the danger was clearly understood by his superiors (a tactical team with medics were stationed nearby, but Jarott was sent in alone without knowledge of this.) The meth smuggler stepped out of his truck with an AR-15, taking Jarott completely by surprise, and murdered him. The meth smuggler was then chased down and killed by the other officers and agents.
- aerostable_slug 2y agoFor what purpose? Do you think that if the meth smuggler had been met by two or more officers he would have acted differently?
- lupusreal 2y ago[flagged]
- MichaelZuo 2y agoHow is this more plausible then any of the alternative explanations? e.g. the decision makers could be incompetent, they might not care that much, they had some other contradicting information not publicly revealed, etc…
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- catlover76 2y ago[dead]
- matthewdgreen 2y agoI don't love podcasts as a medium, but this one provides a good overview of the group. https://soundcloud.com/trueanonpod/zizian-murder-cult-1 https://soundcloud.com/trueanonpod/zizian-murder-cult-1
- spondylosaurus 2y agohttps://maxread.substack.com/p/the-zizians-and-the-rationalist-death https://maxread.substack.com/p/the-zizians-and-the-rationali... This is (1) a thorough write-up (2) with quotes/info multiple sources (3) whose author is NOT affiliated with any of these communities.
- ChrisArchitect 2y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42897871 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42897871
- hoseja 2y agoThe last two paragraphs are really great.
- chatmasta 2y agoThe author may not be affiliated with the community, but he shares its affliction for longposting…
- nradov 2y agoReporter Andy Ngo has written several news articles about the the Ziz cult. https://thepostmillennial.com/andy-ngo-reports-trans-terror-trans-duo-revealed-as-suspects-in-killing-of-a-vermont-border-patrol-officer https://thepostmillennial.com/andy-ngo-reports-trans-terror-...
- KerrAvon 2y ago[flagged]
- unwise-exe 2y agoJust because he has, um, interesting ideas about what's worth covering or what lens to view things through, does not change that he does in fact report things and is therefore a reporter.
- m-ee 2y agoFor anyone unfamiliar with Andy Ngo he has an extreme far right bias and associates with the proud boys. Worth taking anything he says we a heap of salt.
- nradov 2y agoI'm unfamiliar with Andy Ngo's other activities, I just noticed that article and it seemed relevant. Is there anything factually incorrect in it?
- jjj123 2y agoIdk about factually incorrect, but the piece repeatedly misgenders the cultists, puts their names in scare quotes and favors their old names (and calls those old names their “real names”) and leads with “trans terror” in the headline. At every turn the purpose of the piece is demonize trans people, even if it got the facts right.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- akuchling 2y agoRebecca Watson wrote about them a week ago: https://skepchick.org/2025/02/the-rationalist-death-cult-spreading-mayhem/ https://skepchick.org/2025/02/the-rationalist-death-cult-spr...
- dullcrisp 2y agoThis one’s a good summary. Also why does it seem like everyone in California is in some cult?
- compiler-guy 2y agoThe availability heuristic. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic
- mindslight 2y agoWinter is a hard reality check.
- hilux 2y agoWe're not ALL in a cult, nor are we vegan, transgender, or math geniuses. (That last one is a pity, since I was a math major.)
- kragen 2y agoSeems pretty confused. The maxread piece linked above and the Wikipedia article linked below are a lot better.
- templeOSdotcom 2y agoA possibly mentally ill trans woman with the moniker Ziz developed a following blogging and posting on philosophy groups. Ziz developed that following into a cult.
- droptablemain 2y agoTransgender vegan murderous AI apocalyptic cult?
- Viliam1234 2y agoAlso anarchists, I think. Having many adjectives is nice, because it allows everyone to make this story be about their favorite topic.
- comrade1234 2y ago[flagged]
- butter999 2y agoFor what it's worth, I always downvote "I can't speak my mind because my opinions are too controversial" comments, but I don't downvote controversial comments if they're thoughtful. I think most of the time when people feel they can't speak their mind, the reality is that their opinions are shallow and poorly thought out, and they're not willing to receive that feedback or put more energy into formulating an opinion. If you're jumping to conclusions by looking at people's photos - you're probably not really coming to a considered conclusion based on the breadth of evidence. The downvotes you were anticipating were probably deserved.
- lmm 2y ago> If you're jumping to conclusions by looking at people's photos - you're probably not really coming to a considered conclusion based on the breadth of evidence. There's a reason "me or your lying eyes" is a joke. At some point you have to be willing to look at something rather than thinking yourself into a position when you can't see what's in front of you.
- butter999 2y agoI invite you to elaborate, because because while I see how it's true you should draw conclusions from what you see in general, abstract terms, I don't understand what you mean to imply in the context of the comment I made (eg "don't judge a book by it's cover" or "if you're judging a book by it's cover, don't be surprised or claim victimhood if you get the feedback you've come to errant conclusions").
- lmm 2y agoWhat I'm saying is that looking at a photo is a reality-check and a valuable one. Yes, sometimes something isn't what it looks like. But often things are exactly what they look like. If your elaborate theory leads you to one conclusion, and looking at the photo leads you to another, you should at least consider the possibility that it's the elaborate theory that's wrong.
- decimalenough 2y agoSeems to be blocked outside the US, here's a mirror: https://archive.is/wr33g https://archive.is/wr33g
- mzajc 2y agoWorks from Europe, might be something else.
- ChrisArchitect 2y agoIt's an AP story, widely syndicated everywhere. https://apnews.com/article/zizians-killings-border-patrol-bf599db6b9ec354c68ed5ff4d5701b84 https://apnews.com/article/zizians-killings-border-patrol-bf...
- zozbot234 2y agoBackground: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42897871 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42897871 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42877910 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42877910
- dang 2y agoThanks—macroexpanded: The Zizians and the rationalist death cult - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42897871 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42897871 - Feb 2025 (205 comments) String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians' - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42877910 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42877910 - Jan 2025 (858 comments)
- mvdtnz 2y ago[flagged]
- _--__--__ 2y agoit's very common for violent cults of personality to target potential members who are social outsiders, there's a dual benefit that such individual are more likely to offer loyalty in exchange for membership and they also provide ideological cover as the cult can blend in to a larger perceived movement the fact that this particular set of outsiders creates skewed media reactions (from total misdirection on one end to unfair over indexing on the other) is a novel third benefit
- mvdtnz 2y agoI don't doubt at all that that's a major or even complete explanation of why trans women have been targeted by this cult. I am most certainly not making the claim that they're doing this because they are trans. I just think that it's interesting that this very notable fact is being ignored - if this group were made up entirely of right wing men, or ballet dancers, or museum curators this would no doubt be reported on.
- _--__--__ 2y agoYeah I agree, I think that this is just a case where the transness of the cult members was actually beneficial in a Darwinian memetics sense - there have been public warnings about the Zizians for half a decade but they were all pattern matched to 'bigoted transphobic fear mongering' and excluded from the Overton Window. It took the random murder of a federal agent (which got media coverage on an entirely separate axis of attention) to break this, and I wonder how long Ziz would have walked free even if the group continued to commit less headline worthy crimes.
- userbinator 2y agoThe Overton Window has also shifted significantly within the past year or so.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- ChrisArchitect 2y agoSource: https://apnews.com/article/zizians-killings-border-patrol-bf599db6b9ec354c68ed5ff4d5701b84 https://apnews.com/article/zizians-killings-border-patrol-bf...
- buckle8017 2y ago[flagged]
- Nasrudith 2y agoNXIVM is something different and comes from another crowd, at least that is the only other recent notorious sex cult which comes to mind. (Although I only remembered the name as Nexium.)
- huberway 2y agoCan we talk about how the Rationalists seem to attract mentally unstable people to their trainings in mental technology, while also targeting the young with so-called rationality camps? If at the apex of an organization you have a person who has organized his life in such a way as to have sex with several other people, and if many people involved in the movement pay a tithe to the organization or charities it designates, and if many of the members of this organization go crazy thinking about the impending hell (of AGI), how is this different from a cult?
- palisade 2y agoThat cult is kind of the opposite tho, they were looking forward to the impending hell of AGI and thought they were doing things that would get on the good side of the evil overseer AI of the future. If anything they weren't going crazy over it they felt comforted.
- plagiarist 2y agoThey are too rational for religion but desperately need meaning (or whatever) so they convinced themselves they could literally talk directly to god (after he exists he will simulate their exact personalities at this exact moment in time).
- arresin 2y agoThese are the people too smart for regular cults?
- Wololooo 2y agoThe unfortunate truth is that everyone can be manipulated and everyone can be conditioned. It just takes time and/or the right circumstances. This includes propaganda.
- rtkwe 2y agoThey probably believe(d) they are/were but cults exploit a lot of fundamental human biases, desires and weaknesses. Pretty much anyone could fall in with a cult given the right approach. IMO all believing you're too smart for a cult gets you is a blind spot that lets the right cult sneak up on you even easier.
- akomtu 2y agoI'll copy someone's comment from a related thread: G.K.Chesterton knew it, 100 years ago: "... insanity is often marked by the dominance of reason and the exclusion of creativity and humour. Pure reason is inhuman. The madman’s mind moves in a perfect, but narrow, circle, and his explanation of the world is comprehensive, at least to him." It's a very common failure mode, in fact. We tend to swipe inconvenient emotions under the rug, into our subconscious basement. Those emotions don't disappear, and their fumes start poisoning the mind, who believes that it sees clearly. Instead, it quickly surrounds itself with a shell of illusion. In that imaginary castle it sits and slowly goes insane. A simple self-test is asking yourself: do you feel compassion to those around you? Mind alone cannot create compassion, it comes from above to guide the mind. That's also why living a solitary life is a bad idea, especially when your mind wants to self-isolate to guard its precious inner world.
- dsabanin 2y agoCrazy, I've just been in Media, PA on my sons birthday this Friday. Didn't expect to see it in the national news.
- xinuc 2y agoWhy this kind of news can popup here regularly, while any news about other massacres always get banned?
- fortran77 2y agoBecause this one is Silicon Valley / Tech adjacent.
- yahoozoo 2y ago[dead]
- hollerith 2y agoSome of the attempts in this comment section to tar the entire rationalist community with the Zizian brush are ideologically motivated. The third most popular ideology in the US is the hope that technological progress will lead to a good future. (The most popular ideology is Christianity, with Leftism in second place. Note that a single person can subscribe to more than one ideology.) In contrast, the rationalist community grew around publications by Eliezer Yudkowsky written with the hope that they would help people realize that AI research is dangerous [1]. Of course, if technological progress is your ideology, then you are going to resist the idea that the most exciting and powerful technology of the decade is dangerous. [1] More history here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42902731 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42902731
- mannerheim 2y agoThere's also the other time the rationalist community made national news, when a similar cult accidentally gambled away ten billion dollars in cryptocurrency.
- hollerith 2y agoEffective altruism has different roots than the rationalists (although, yes, the 2 communities have become close over the years). I have seen any statement by Sam Bankman-Fried where he identified as a rationalist.
- mannerheim 2y agoWell, if we're ignoring everyone else's descriptions of SBF, Caroline Ellison had a tumblr on which she repeatedly self-identified as a rationalist: https://caroline.milkyeggs.com/worldoptimization https://caroline.milkyeggs.com/worldoptimization
- guerrilla 2y agoThis isn't true. https://maxread.substack.com/p/the-zizians-and-the-rationalist-death https://maxread.substack.com/p/the-zizians-and-the-rationali...
- reverendsteveii 2y agoGiven that people with an agenda have already tried to make this about illegal immigration and failed, I look forward to them trying to make it about trans people instead. It's already a standard play in the book to take any headline-grabbing violent crime and try to blame it on a trans person, so when that's actually true there are absolutely gonna be people who think the whole community needs to answer for it.