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Argentina president faces impeachment calls over crypto crash

93 points by anigbrowl 2y ago

ChrisArchitect 2y ago
Related: Javier Milei backtracks on $4.4B memecoin after 'insiders' pocket $87M https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43072790 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43072790
jethronethro 2y ago
[flagged]
exceptione 2y ago
Austrian school of economics [1] and constitutional crisis huh? 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hayek#Dictatorship_and_totalitarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hayek#Dictatorship_a...
sega_sai 2y ago
To be honest it is unclear if this is grifting, or just stupidity. I think the latter is more likely. And stupidity is probably not impeachable...
- petsfed 2y ago
  At least in the US, "impeachable offense" is whatever the legislature will vote 2-to-1 for (which was revealed during the first Trump impeachment, and underscored why the second was such a farce. If 2/3 of the senate wouldn't convict a president stabbing a class of orphans on the capital steps, it doesn't really matter if its "legally" impeachable). Dunno if its as loosely defined in Argentina.
ks2048 2y ago
Meanwhile Trump's meme-coin was in the news cycle for about a day - until we all moved on to the next insane thing he did. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/$Trump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/$Trump
- bamboozled 2y ago
  Milei needs to do more insane things if he wants to keep his job.
  - vkou 2y ago
    That just means it's time to declare martial law, proscribe the legislature, and try to launch a coup.
  - lumost 2y ago
    Having an executive do crazy things all the time is unstable. Systems tend to evolve towards a stable state. A dictator with absolute power, an impeached executive, or a dictator removed by populace uprising are the likely outcomes of nonsensical positions.
    - UncleOxidant 2y ago
      I guess we'll see how long it takes here. So far I don't see massive general strikes anytime soon. Given how spread out the US is, you need to get a good chunk of the population to turn out and we're not close yet.
      - damnesian 2y ago
        Wait til people are really hurting and have nothing left to lose.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        UncleOxidant 2y ago
        The problem is that the demagogues will just convince many people that it wasn't really their fault, that this is the fault of the previous administration and they're just trying to "clean it up". That will likely work for a while. They don't have to convince everyone, just enough people to ensure that protests can't reach a critical mass.
1270018080 2y ago
Anarchocapitalism is just neoliberalism and crypto scams I guess.
- artistic_regard 2y ago
  [dead]
standeven 2y ago
First you need to have a cult-like following among your base and a partisan Supreme Court who owes you favors. Only then can you enrich yourself and your pals by abusing your position of power to promote meme-coins.
- readyplayernull 2y ago
  Second, fine the crypto companies to extract taxes, but don't close them and keep the scam going so you can fine them again every few years.
- Gibbon1 2y ago
  The cryptobro's and their meme coins and meme stocks reminds me of the idea that people often become what they hate.
  - ryan_lane 2y ago
    They haven't changed. The point from the beginning is scams and greed.
    - ryanschaefer 2y ago
      It’s interesting. I remember hearing something I agree with from one of Bloomberg’s podcasts (either Moneystuff or Odd Lots) that the ambiguous regulatory regime for crypto actually lead to the state we’re in. Summarizing, but what they generally said is that the actual “disruptive” attempts at technology from crypto (ICOs / DeFi) were selectively but heavily punished. Take XRP for an example of that. What wasn’t / isn’t punished is meme coins because they fail the Howey test and there’s not really anything that a body which regulates investments can do against something screaming “we are not an investment.”
      - ryan_lane 2y ago
        ICOs were being used by VCs to do rug pulls. Everyone buying at the ICO lost everything. DeFi promised absolutely insane interest rates, built on a house of cards. When the cards collapsed, everyone who invested in them lost everything. The issue isn't that they've selectively enforced things, it's that regulation is slow moving, and they can't keep up with the rate of new scam technology that comes out of crypto. To be honest, I don't see a significant difference between meme coins and ICOs. In a lot of the cases, the person who creates the meme coin is the one who reaps the most profit during rug pulls. Some meme coins have been around for such a long time that they're mostly used for pump/dump, but a lot of them are effectively ICOs under a different name.
toolz 2y ago
Seems like the news headlines should read "President makes a mistake that benefits crypto grifters, but luckily for the grifters the only blame seems to be attributed to the president because of a single tweet." I imagine taking the inflation rate (that was growing exponentially) from nearly 300% yearly to less than 3% monthly in less than a year isn't likely to be wildly popular to all the non-crypto grifters.
s1artibartfast 2y ago
Seems like a story without legs unless the opposition actually shows he benefited. Also, it seems like the BBC totally massacred the definition of a rug pull. >Some people online have accused Milei of what is known as a "rug pull" - where promoters of a cryptocurrency draw in buyers, only to stop trading activity and make off with the money It doesn't have anything to do with a trading freeze, and I don't think that happened here.
throwayaw84330 2y ago
I'm Argentinian and this is really unlikely. Political parties representing more than 1/2 of the members of the local equivalent of the "house of representatives" (first stage to make this happen) have already said they wouldn't vote for this. Like in the USA; each individual legislator can vote against their block; but the amount of these cases would be unprecedented (and then it also needs to be approved by 2/3 of the senate) This is the source, it's in Spanish though. They ask for a thorough investigation; but are very dismissive of the case for an impeachment. This is a political party that roughly has 30% of the seats; the president's own political party has also about 30%; https://www.clarin.com/politica/escandalo-cripto-pro-pide-investigacion-rigurosa-transparente-descarta-juicio-politico_0_SzYhyyVxfb.html https://www.clarin.com/politica/escandalo-cripto-pro-pide-in...
- ranyume 2y ago
  More context. Other parties already said that impeachment is irresponsible at this stage. There are procedures to be done before considering that and the aim of the other powers (congress and justice) right now is to correct whatever is wrong with the executive's decision-making procedures. Obviously this would erode the executive's power as a result.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Jotalea 2y ago
There are some things to have in mind here: - the average person in Argentina has no clue how to buy crypto - the link was available once, for only 2 hours - to even think about buying it, you need some requirements such as a specific kind of wallet, previous interactions with certain crypto associated with that kind of wallet, have it linked to two sources, have your identity verified with the DNI (or other type of ID), and just then you could buy it. Once applied all these filters, the amount of people that got to buy this is ridiculously small for the opposites to say that he scammed the country. Take this with a grain of salt, since I'm far from being an expert on this topic. tl;dr: It was very difficult to get that coin.
- masijo 2y ago
  The fact that it was "hard to buy" is absolutely irrelevant.
  - GoldenMonkey 2y ago
    sure it does. more likely sophisticated investors bought in. who should be aware of the inherent risks of any meme coin.
  - moralestapia 2y ago
    It's not. Damages are an important component of a trial.
elzbardico 2y ago
Millei was reckless, but this is hardly ground for impeachment of an legally elected president. But this is the usual playbook from the left, manufactured outrage and opportunism.
Yeul 2y ago
After WW2 the Dutch government decided to replace the old currency with a new one. No crypto involved. It was done to wipe out all the cash profits people had made during the war. If you couldn't explain the source of your money adequately it was POOF gone. It was spectacularly successful.
- trogdor 2y ago
  > After WW2 the Dutch government decided to replace the old currency with a new one. It was done to wipe out all the cash profits people had made during the war. If you couldn't explain the source of your money adequately it was POOF gone. It was spectacularly successful. Would you link a source? I am unable to easily find anything online that substantiates your claim.
  - clydethefrog 2y ago
    It's a bit blunt summary. I will write a loose explanation based on a Dutch history TV programme's blog post, this event is called the "Lieftinck Tenner". [1] A few weeks after the new post-war government was installed, all hundred currency notes were declared invalid, out of the blue. All hundreds could be taken to the bank, where they were put on a blocked account for an indefinite period. Anyone who could not prove that they obtained the money in a honest way, their money would be taken and they would also be put on trial for black market trading. It was a rare case of the burden of proof being reversed in NL. The confiscation of the hundreds was only just the beginning. The next step was that all Dutch paper money was invalidated in one swoop on 26 September 1945. At the same time, all bank accounts were frozen. Everyone was given a week to bring their money to the bank. Everything was registered, including foreign currency holdings, life insurance contracts and recently concluded mortgages. Only the coins remained outside this purification. Salaries were not paid that week as not to disrupt the system; the following week the pay packets were doubled. For a week, from 26 September to 2 October, everyone had to survive on exactly the same amount: the famous "Lieftinck Tenner". For a short while, there is total economic equality in the Netherlands. It was not a tenner by the way, it was five notes of one guilder (1) and two of one rijksdaalder (2,50). It was a conscious decision not to pay out the money in one banknote, but in different denominations because no one else would have change. Lieftinck, the economic minister at the time, explained: “Money purification is not only necessary to track down black market profits and to hit those who have made black market profits, but also because, after five years of German extortion, we are as destitute as no one could imagine. Limiting the circulation of money must prevent disloyal elements from stealing all the available goods from the market due to their excess of money, whereby people with small fixed incomes will be duped.” From 3 October 1945, the money that has been frozen was gradually unblocked and replaced by freshly printed banknotes. There are only a few hundred million guilders of new money available, barely enough to pay wages. Lieftinck wants to hold on to the surrendered money for as long as possible, to prevent inflation and to detect the illegal war profits. As long as the monetary balance has not been restored, everyone gets enough money to live on, but it is not much. In retrospect, it is unbelievable how the whole of the Netherlands obediently accepts that Lieftinck keeps the piggy bank locked up indefinitely. The realisation "that it is simply necessary" was so widespread in the country that there was no notable protest against the blockade. (Also, in order to complete the monetary purification, Lieftinck introduced two drastic wealth taxes: a one-off wealth tax, and a special levy on capital obtained during the war. The latter levy in particular could be quite high: anyone who could not prove how they earned their money during the war was assessed 90% and thus lost almost everything.) The monetary purification was not completed until 1952, when the last amounts were unblocked. In seven years, Lieftinck had thoroughly reorganised the economy. The monetary balance has been restored and, moreover, the banking system has been unintentionally stimulated enormously. Thanks to the purification measures, for the first time in Dutch history almost everyone has a bank account, which means a huge boost for the Dutch banks. It is not sure if this move was also succesful in actually punishing the people that made cash profits during the war - there was a huge flight in capital goods of gold, jewelry, land, houses. Another example is a farmer laundering his money by buying a bull for hundred times the real price. Some researchers claim the government might have emphasized dealing with the war profiteers because such a radical national economic effort would not have received as much support otherwise. [1] https://anderetijden.nl/programma/1/Andere-Tijden/aflevering/610/Tientje-van-Lieftinck https://anderetijden.nl/programma/1/Andere-Tijden/aflevering...

93 points by anigbrowl 2y ago

Related: Javier Milei backtracks on $4.4B memecoin after 'insiders' pocket $87M https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43072790 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43072790

jethronethro 2y ago

[flagged]

exceptione 2y ago

Austrian school of economics [1] and constitutional crisis huh? 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hayek#Dictatorship_and_totalitarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hayek#Dictatorship_a...

sega_sai 2y ago

To be honest it is unclear if this is grifting, or just stupidity. I think the latter is more likely. And stupidity is probably not impeachable...

petsfed 2y ago
At least in the US, "impeachable offense" is whatever the legislature will vote 2-to-1 for (which was revealed during the first Trump impeachment, and underscored why the second was such a farce. If 2/3 of the senate wouldn't convict a president stabbing a class of orphans on the capital steps, it doesn't really matter if its "legally" impeachable). Dunno if its as loosely defined in Argentina.

ks2048 2y ago

Meanwhile Trump's meme-coin was in the news cycle for about a day - until we all moved on to the next insane thing he did. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/$Trump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/$Trump

bamboozled 2y ago
Milei needs to do more insane things if he wants to keep his job.
- vkou 2y ago
  That just means it's time to declare martial law, proscribe the legislature, and try to launch a coup.
- lumost 2y ago
  Having an executive do crazy things all the time is unstable. Systems tend to evolve towards a stable state. A dictator with absolute power, an impeached executive, or a dictator removed by populace uprising are the likely outcomes of nonsensical positions.
  - UncleOxidant 2y ago
    I guess we'll see how long it takes here. So far I don't see massive general strikes anytime soon. Given how spread out the US is, you need to get a good chunk of the population to turn out and we're not close yet.
    - damnesian 2y ago
      Wait til people are really hurting and have nothing left to lose.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - UncleOxidant 2y ago
        The problem is that the demagogues will just convince many people that it wasn't really their fault, that this is the fault of the previous administration and they're just trying to "clean it up". That will likely work for a while. They don't have to convince everyone, just enough people to ensure that protests can't reach a critical mass.

1270018080 2y ago

Anarchocapitalism is just neoliberalism and crypto scams I guess.

artistic_regard 2y ago
[dead]

standeven 2y ago

First you need to have a cult-like following among your base and a partisan Supreme Court who owes you favors. Only then can you enrich yourself and your pals by abusing your position of power to promote meme-coins.

readyplayernull 2y ago
Second, fine the crypto companies to extract taxes, but don't close them and keep the scam going so you can fine them again every few years.
Gibbon1 2y ago
The cryptobro's and their meme coins and meme stocks reminds me of the idea that people often become what they hate.
- ryan_lane 2y ago
  They haven't changed. The point from the beginning is scams and greed.
  - ryanschaefer 2y ago
    It’s interesting. I remember hearing something I agree with from one of Bloomberg’s podcasts (either Moneystuff or Odd Lots) that the ambiguous regulatory regime for crypto actually lead to the state we’re in. Summarizing, but what they generally said is that the actual “disruptive” attempts at technology from crypto (ICOs / DeFi) were selectively but heavily punished. Take XRP for an example of that. What wasn’t / isn’t punished is meme coins because they fail the Howey test and there’s not really anything that a body which regulates investments can do against something screaming “we are not an investment.”
    - ryan_lane 2y ago
      ICOs were being used by VCs to do rug pulls. Everyone buying at the ICO lost everything. DeFi promised absolutely insane interest rates, built on a house of cards. When the cards collapsed, everyone who invested in them lost everything. The issue isn't that they've selectively enforced things, it's that regulation is slow moving, and they can't keep up with the rate of new scam technology that comes out of crypto. To be honest, I don't see a significant difference between meme coins and ICOs. In a lot of the cases, the person who creates the meme coin is the one who reaps the most profit during rug pulls. Some meme coins have been around for such a long time that they're mostly used for pump/dump, but a lot of them are effectively ICOs under a different name.

toolz 2y ago

Seems like the news headlines should read "President makes a mistake that benefits crypto grifters, but luckily for the grifters the only blame seems to be attributed to the president because of a single tweet." I imagine taking the inflation rate (that was growing exponentially) from nearly 300% yearly to less than 3% monthly in less than a year isn't likely to be wildly popular to all the non-crypto grifters.

s1artibartfast 2y ago

Seems like a story without legs unless the opposition actually shows he benefited. Also, it seems like the BBC totally massacred the definition of a rug pull. >Some people online have accused Milei of what is known as a "rug pull" - where promoters of a cryptocurrency draw in buyers, only to stop trading activity and make off with the money It doesn't have anything to do with a trading freeze, and I don't think that happened here.

throwayaw84330 2y ago

I'm Argentinian and this is really unlikely. Political parties representing more than 1/2 of the members of the local equivalent of the "house of representatives" (first stage to make this happen) have already said they wouldn't vote for this. Like in the USA; each individual legislator can vote against their block; but the amount of these cases would be unprecedented (and then it also needs to be approved by 2/3 of the senate) This is the source, it's in Spanish though. They ask for a thorough investigation; but are very dismissive of the case for an impeachment. This is a political party that roughly has 30% of the seats; the president's own political party has also about 30%; https://www.clarin.com/politica/escandalo-cripto-pro-pide-investigacion-rigurosa-transparente-descarta-juicio-politico_0_SzYhyyVxfb.html https://www.clarin.com/politica/escandalo-cripto-pro-pide-in...

ranyume 2y ago
More context. Other parties already said that impeachment is irresponsible at this stage. There are procedures to be done before considering that and the aim of the other powers (congress and justice) right now is to correct whatever is wrong with the executive's decision-making procedures. Obviously this would erode the executive's power as a result.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Jotalea 2y ago

There are some things to have in mind here: - the average person in Argentina has no clue how to buy crypto - the link was available once, for only 2 hours - to even think about buying it, you need some requirements such as a specific kind of wallet, previous interactions with certain crypto associated with that kind of wallet, have it linked to two sources, have your identity verified with the DNI (or other type of ID), and just then you could buy it. Once applied all these filters, the amount of people that got to buy this is ridiculously small for the opposites to say that he scammed the country. Take this with a grain of salt, since I'm far from being an expert on this topic. tl;dr: It was very difficult to get that coin.

masijo 2y ago
The fact that it was "hard to buy" is absolutely irrelevant.
- GoldenMonkey 2y ago
  sure it does. more likely sophisticated investors bought in. who should be aware of the inherent risks of any meme coin.
- moralestapia 2y ago
  It's not. Damages are an important component of a trial.

elzbardico 2y ago

Millei was reckless, but this is hardly ground for impeachment of an legally elected president. But this is the usual playbook from the left, manufactured outrage and opportunism.

Yeul 2y ago

After WW2 the Dutch government decided to replace the old currency with a new one. No crypto involved. It was done to wipe out all the cash profits people had made during the war. If you couldn't explain the source of your money adequately it was POOF gone. It was spectacularly successful.

trogdor 2y ago
> After WW2 the Dutch government decided to replace the old currency with a new one. It was done to wipe out all the cash profits people had made during the war. If you couldn't explain the source of your money adequately it was POOF gone. It was spectacularly successful. Would you link a source? I am unable to easily find anything online that substantiates your claim.
- clydethefrog 2y ago
  It's a bit blunt summary. I will write a loose explanation based on a Dutch history TV programme's blog post, this event is called the "Lieftinck Tenner". [1] A few weeks after the new post-war government was installed, all hundred currency notes were declared invalid, out of the blue. All hundreds could be taken to the bank, where they were put on a blocked account for an indefinite period. Anyone who could not prove that they obtained the money in a honest way, their money would be taken and they would also be put on trial for black market trading. It was a rare case of the burden of proof being reversed in NL. The confiscation of the hundreds was only just the beginning. The next step was that all Dutch paper money was invalidated in one swoop on 26 September 1945. At the same time, all bank accounts were frozen. Everyone was given a week to bring their money to the bank. Everything was registered, including foreign currency holdings, life insurance contracts and recently concluded mortgages. Only the coins remained outside this purification. Salaries were not paid that week as not to disrupt the system; the following week the pay packets were doubled. For a week, from 26 September to 2 October, everyone had to survive on exactly the same amount: the famous "Lieftinck Tenner". For a short while, there is total economic equality in the Netherlands. It was not a tenner by the way, it was five notes of one guilder (1) and two of one rijksdaalder (2,50). It was a conscious decision not to pay out the money in one banknote, but in different denominations because no one else would have change. Lieftinck, the economic minister at the time, explained: “Money purification is not only necessary to track down black market profits and to hit those who have made black market profits, but also because, after five years of German extortion, we are as destitute as no one could imagine. Limiting the circulation of money must prevent disloyal elements from stealing all the available goods from the market due to their excess of money, whereby people with small fixed incomes will be duped.” From 3 October 1945, the money that has been frozen was gradually unblocked and replaced by freshly printed banknotes. There are only a few hundred million guilders of new money available, barely enough to pay wages. Lieftinck wants to hold on to the surrendered money for as long as possible, to prevent inflation and to detect the illegal war profits. As long as the monetary balance has not been restored, everyone gets enough money to live on, but it is not much. In retrospect, it is unbelievable how the whole of the Netherlands obediently accepts that Lieftinck keeps the piggy bank locked up indefinitely. The realisation "that it is simply necessary" was so widespread in the country that there was no notable protest against the blockade. (Also, in order to complete the monetary purification, Lieftinck introduced two drastic wealth taxes: a one-off wealth tax, and a special levy on capital obtained during the war. The latter levy in particular could be quite high: anyone who could not prove how they earned their money during the war was assessed 90% and thus lost almost everything.) The monetary purification was not completed until 1952, when the last amounts were unblocked. In seven years, Lieftinck had thoroughly reorganised the economy. The monetary balance has been restored and, moreover, the banking system has been unintentionally stimulated enormously. Thanks to the purification measures, for the first time in Dutch history almost everyone has a bank account, which means a huge boost for the Dutch banks. It is not sure if this move was also succesful in actually punishing the people that made cash profits during the war - there was a huge flight in capital goods of gold, jewelry, land, houses. Another example is a farmer laundering his money by buying a bull for hundred times the real price. Some researchers claim the government might have emphasized dealing with the war profiteers because such a radical national economic effort would not have received as much support otherwise. [1] https://anderetijden.nl/programma/1/Andere-Tijden/aflevering/610/Tientje-van-Lieftinck https://anderetijden.nl/programma/1/Andere-Tijden/aflevering...