8 ms·

Sleep & suspend doesn’t work on Windows either. Power control is the kind of stuff that benefits from very tight integration, and PCs just don’t have that. Fi

Sleep & suspend doesn’t work on Windows either. Power control is the kind of stuff that benefits from very tight integration, and PCs just don’t have that. Firmware is seen by most vendors as a pure cost to minimize, so you get a fragmented market full of subcontractors delivering the bare minimum that is considered “working”. Manufacturers also know most people aren’t going to use a big part of the functions they’re supposed to provide to OSes, and no one is really checking them, so it’s very common for devices to have only partial support for things they supposedly do.

bachmeier 2y ago
> Sleep & suspend doesn’t work on Windows either. What's strange is that it never used to be a problem. There are five Windows laptops floating around our house at various times (mixture of work and personal) and suspend works properly on none of them. Oddly, it works on my personal laptop with Debian Stable almost every time, failing maybe 1/25 times. Other distros are about the same as Windows.
- _cenw 2y ago
  Modern Standby. Windows wanted to do the Apple "power nap" stuff, but never realized how painful it'd be if you don't control all the hardware and have millions of different hardware permutations (with a lot of terrible drivers) instead of just a few. Not that it would've helped, half the time my machine is either overheating or off it seems to be wake timers doing windows updates (which yes, you can disable, but most wouldn't). I don't get why S3 sleep had to die for this, but it did.
  - lillecarl 2y ago
    I'm super happy with S0 on Linux. The implementation is all about doing as little as possible but effectively remain "on".
    - vladvasiliu 2y ago
      What's the point, though? If it doesn't actually do anything, why keep it on?
      - lillecarl 2y ago
        Because you don't have to reinitialize hardware if you don't shut it off. Which is hard and causes problems. It's easier to just go into power saving++. If you want your device to be off, power it off.
  - jorvi 2y ago
    > Windows wanted to do the Apple "power nap" stuff On Linux, you can run a systemd unit file that will trigger `rfkill` on sleep and a different `rfkill` invocation on wake and you effectively dodge all that crap because the laptop isn't connected to WiFi and thus will sit around realizing its spinning its wheels and wil shut down further down the s0 chain. > I don't get why S3 sleep had to die for this, but it did. Worse yet, the dirty little secret is that many laptops that offer both S0 and S3 will actually drain more energy in S3 than in S0 because the S3 mode has had poor QA.
- OvbiousError 2y ago
  My colleague showed me his windows machine recently. The rubber on the back around the fans has melted from the times he forgot to shut it down and sleep didn't trigger when he packed it away in his backpack.
  - dhon_ 2y ago
    Linus tech tips on YouTube did a video about a windows bug where sleeping while charging would allow the laptop to wake up to check for updates etc but often caused this issue of turning on in a bag
    - whizzter 2y ago
      It wouldn't happen that this feature was released around early/mid 2020? Windows sleep used to be semi-reliable but one it's been shit for a couple of years. (Any link to the video/docs for turning it off?)
      - dharmab 2y ago
        Search "LTT Windows Modern Standby" on YouTube. Sadly all the workarounds to turn it off no longer work reliably. For reliable sleep, buy a Framework (only current Windows laptop that still supports S3 Sleep) or Macbook.
      - isodude 2y ago
        TL;DR pull the the plug from the laptop _before_ closing the lid. That way it will not be sleeping thinking it got power from the wall.
kiwijamo 2y ago
Even Apple struggled to get it working perfectly in my experience across several models in the PPC/x86 era. Yes they are better(-ish) but when I had Apple laptops I'd still see weird sleep/wake issues in around 1 in every ~50 sleep/wake cycles. I also had one Apple laptop which had its battery going from 100% to 0% overnight during sleep requiring a cold start in the morning on a regular basis despite it being put to sleep the evening before and seemingly going to sleep without issues. Lenovo manages to do sleep/wake fine in Linux almost as well as Apple in my experience and I sleep/wake my Lenovo laptop regularly -- this is across two different models I have used so far (X1 and X390). Hopefully Apple has improved this in their ARM laptops but haven't used them much so can't really comment on ARM.
- sroussey 2y ago
  It’s much better on ARM. And their external monitor support is so much faster and reliable now. Having control over all their hardware has made a noticeable improvement.
  - tiagod 2y ago
    This is not my experience. My M1 Pro MacBook has very strange issues with sound over HDMI. I usually need to reboot it when I connect it to my TV or media won't play if the sound is output over HDMI.
    - smallpipe 2y ago
      Same here on an M1. If you find a solution…
    - Shadowmist 2y ago
      Every time I turn on my M1 Max Mac I have to unplug and replug the HDMI but other than that the machine is a dream to use.
    - bzzzt 2y ago
      That's annoying but could also be caused by the monitor or TV HDMI implementation.
mindcrime 2y ago
> Sleep & suspend doesn’t work on Windows either. Or Macintosh. My $DAYJOB Macbook sleeps properly about about 2 out of 10 times, at best. Most of the time it fails to sleep and by the next morning when I open it up, the battery is dead. :-( For comparison, my System76 laptop running PopOS! sleeps perfectly, every time with no issues. shrug
- stock_toaster 2y ago
  > Or Macintosh. My $DAYJOB Powerbook... You use a 20+ year old[1] PowerPC laptop for your dayjob? Talk about hardware longevity! [1]: Powerbooks were last made in 2006 I think?
  - mindcrime 2y ago
    Typo/brainfart/whatever. I meant to say Macbook. It's about 2 years old.
- vlovich123 2y ago
  > My $DAYJOB Macbook sleeps properly about about 2 out of 10 times, at best. Most of the time it fails to sleep and by the next morning when I open it up, the battery is dead. :-( Important to remember that work laptops typically install all sorts of crap spyware and fleet management software that causes the system to misbehave. That’s not as much on Apple although not protecting their brand against such software is on them.
  - mindcrime 2y ago
    Good point. And this machine does have the typical stack of enterprise spyware crapola. Curiously enough though, sleep / suspend do work occasionally. Just not consistently.
jml78 2y ago
Are there issues in Windows? Sure but if you give me 100 laptops, 80% will do this right without any issue. Maybe 30% of those laptops will work right on any Linux distro without major fucking around with bullshit trying to make it work. Yes those numbers are made up but I have been running versions of Linux since Slackware in the 90s. I still have a desktop with an amd cpu and nvidia gpu that I can’t get to sleep/suspend right. Works fine when dual boated in windows. I just gave up and manually do shit now when using Linux
- dharmab 2y ago
  Oh no, Windows Modern Standby is infamously terrible and unreliable. Here is a youtube video with millions of views explaining the problems in detail: https://youtu.be/OHKKcd3sx2c https://youtu.be/OHKKcd3sx2c
  - iamtedd 2y ago
    Two years ago, that video was published. Good thing it's all fixed now, eh! /s
- weberer 2y ago
  0% of new Windows laptops support proper S3 sleep mode since Microsoft gutted it in favor of "modern standby".
  - dharmab 2y ago
    Framework does! I think they might be the _only_ one to consistently support it.
- lenkite 2y ago
  Once upon a time, Windows sleep was reliable 99.xy% of the time. If you put a Windows laptop to sleep it stayed asleep cozily. Now its like an elderly nursing home patient who wakes up several times and raids the kitchen to eat all the time. The fall of a once great OS is sad to see. I guess AI matters more to Microsoft than their Core OS nowadays.
stephen_g 2y ago
I was amazed when I got an 11th-generation Intel NUC and it didn't sleep/wake properly. I would have expected it with a cheap clone, but this was a fully integrated computer made by the same people who designed and manufactured the processor itself! I can't remember if it ever fixed it - maybe after a year or two there were finally newer EFI and graphics drivers that fixed the issue, but maybe it never did? In the end I ended up getting a newer machine to replace it anyway and it became my home server so just runs Proxmox now and doesn't need to ever sleep...
- emmelaich 2y ago
  I know the NUC I had had it's ethernet port put PERMANENTLY to sleep. There was, eventually, a Windows program which hacked the device to take it out of sleep. But I had no Windows OS on it. Before I got around to installing enough Windows, the NUC died for other reasons :-(

bachmeier 2y ago

> Sleep & suspend doesn’t work on Windows either. What's strange is that it never used to be a problem. There are five Windows laptops floating around our house at various times (mixture of work and personal) and suspend works properly on none of them. Oddly, it works on my personal laptop with Debian Stable almost every time, failing maybe 1/25 times. Other distros are about the same as Windows.

_cenw 2y ago
Modern Standby. Windows wanted to do the Apple "power nap" stuff, but never realized how painful it'd be if you don't control all the hardware and have millions of different hardware permutations (with a lot of terrible drivers) instead of just a few. Not that it would've helped, half the time my machine is either overheating or off it seems to be wake timers doing windows updates (which yes, you can disable, but most wouldn't). I don't get why S3 sleep had to die for this, but it did.
- lillecarl 2y ago
  I'm super happy with S0 on Linux. The implementation is all about doing as little as possible but effectively remain "on".
  - vladvasiliu 2y ago
    What's the point, though? If it doesn't actually do anything, why keep it on?
    - lillecarl 2y ago
      Because you don't have to reinitialize hardware if you don't shut it off. Which is hard and causes problems. It's easier to just go into power saving++. If you want your device to be off, power it off.
- jorvi 2y ago
  > Windows wanted to do the Apple "power nap" stuff On Linux, you can run a systemd unit file that will trigger `rfkill` on sleep and a different `rfkill` invocation on wake and you effectively dodge all that crap because the laptop isn't connected to WiFi and thus will sit around realizing its spinning its wheels and wil shut down further down the s0 chain. > I don't get why S3 sleep had to die for this, but it did. Worse yet, the dirty little secret is that many laptops that offer both S0 and S3 will actually drain more energy in S3 than in S0 because the S3 mode has had poor QA.
OvbiousError 2y ago
My colleague showed me his windows machine recently. The rubber on the back around the fans has melted from the times he forgot to shut it down and sleep didn't trigger when he packed it away in his backpack.
- dhon_ 2y ago
  Linus tech tips on YouTube did a video about a windows bug where sleeping while charging would allow the laptop to wake up to check for updates etc but often caused this issue of turning on in a bag
  - whizzter 2y ago
    It wouldn't happen that this feature was released around early/mid 2020? Windows sleep used to be semi-reliable but one it's been shit for a couple of years. (Any link to the video/docs for turning it off?)
    - dharmab 2y ago
      Search "LTT Windows Modern Standby" on YouTube. Sadly all the workarounds to turn it off no longer work reliably. For reliable sleep, buy a Framework (only current Windows laptop that still supports S3 Sleep) or Macbook.
    - isodude 2y ago
      TL;DR pull the the plug from the laptop _before_ closing the lid. That way it will not be sleeping thinking it got power from the wall.

kiwijamo 2y ago

Even Apple struggled to get it working perfectly in my experience across several models in the PPC/x86 era. Yes they are better(-ish) but when I had Apple laptops I'd still see weird sleep/wake issues in around 1 in every ~50 sleep/wake cycles. I also had one Apple laptop which had its battery going from 100% to 0% overnight during sleep requiring a cold start in the morning on a regular basis despite it being put to sleep the evening before and seemingly going to sleep without issues. Lenovo manages to do sleep/wake fine in Linux almost as well as Apple in my experience and I sleep/wake my Lenovo laptop regularly -- this is across two different models I have used so far (X1 and X390). Hopefully Apple has improved this in their ARM laptops but haven't used them much so can't really comment on ARM.

sroussey 2y ago
It’s much better on ARM. And their external monitor support is so much faster and reliable now. Having control over all their hardware has made a noticeable improvement.
- tiagod 2y ago
  This is not my experience. My M1 Pro MacBook has very strange issues with sound over HDMI. I usually need to reboot it when I connect it to my TV or media won't play if the sound is output over HDMI.
  - smallpipe 2y ago
    Same here on an M1. If you find a solution…
  - Shadowmist 2y ago
    Every time I turn on my M1 Max Mac I have to unplug and replug the HDMI but other than that the machine is a dream to use.
  - bzzzt 2y ago
    That's annoying but could also be caused by the monitor or TV HDMI implementation.

mindcrime 2y ago

> Sleep & suspend doesn’t work on Windows either. Or Macintosh. My $DAYJOB Macbook sleeps properly about about 2 out of 10 times, at best. Most of the time it fails to sleep and by the next morning when I open it up, the battery is dead. :-( For comparison, my System76 laptop running PopOS! sleeps perfectly, every time with no issues. shrug

stock_toaster 2y ago
> Or Macintosh. My $DAYJOB Powerbook... You use a 20+ year old[1] PowerPC laptop for your dayjob? Talk about hardware longevity! [1]: Powerbooks were last made in 2006 I think?
- mindcrime 2y ago
  Typo/brainfart/whatever. I meant to say Macbook. It's about 2 years old.
vlovich123 2y ago
> My $DAYJOB Macbook sleeps properly about about 2 out of 10 times, at best. Most of the time it fails to sleep and by the next morning when I open it up, the battery is dead. :-( Important to remember that work laptops typically install all sorts of crap spyware and fleet management software that causes the system to misbehave. That’s not as much on Apple although not protecting their brand against such software is on them.
- mindcrime 2y ago
  Good point. And this machine does have the typical stack of enterprise spyware crapola. Curiously enough though, sleep / suspend do work occasionally. Just not consistently.

jml78 2y ago

Are there issues in Windows? Sure but if you give me 100 laptops, 80% will do this right without any issue. Maybe 30% of those laptops will work right on any Linux distro without major fucking around with bullshit trying to make it work. Yes those numbers are made up but I have been running versions of Linux since Slackware in the 90s. I still have a desktop with an amd cpu and nvidia gpu that I can’t get to sleep/suspend right. Works fine when dual boated in windows. I just gave up and manually do shit now when using Linux

dharmab 2y ago
Oh no, Windows Modern Standby is infamously terrible and unreliable. Here is a youtube video with millions of views explaining the problems in detail: https://youtu.be/OHKKcd3sx2c https://youtu.be/OHKKcd3sx2c
- iamtedd 2y ago
  Two years ago, that video was published. Good thing it's all fixed now, eh! /s
weberer 2y ago
0% of new Windows laptops support proper S3 sleep mode since Microsoft gutted it in favor of "modern standby".
- dharmab 2y ago
  Framework does! I think they might be the _only_ one to consistently support it.
lenkite 2y ago
Once upon a time, Windows sleep was reliable 99.xy% of the time. If you put a Windows laptop to sleep it stayed asleep cozily. Now its like an elderly nursing home patient who wakes up several times and raids the kitchen to eat all the time. The fall of a once great OS is sad to see. I guess AI matters more to Microsoft than their Core OS nowadays.

stephen_g 2y ago

I was amazed when I got an 11th-generation Intel NUC and it didn't sleep/wake properly. I would have expected it with a cheap clone, but this was a fully integrated computer made by the same people who designed and manufactured the processor itself! I can't remember if it ever fixed it - maybe after a year or two there were finally newer EFI and graphics drivers that fixed the issue, but maybe it never did? In the end I ended up getting a newer machine to replace it anyway and it became my home server so just runs Proxmox now and doesn't need to ever sleep...

emmelaich 2y ago
I know the NUC I had had it's ethernet port put PERMANENTLY to sleep. There was, eventually, a Windows program which hacked the device to take it out of sleep. But I had no Windows OS on it. Before I got around to installing enough Windows, the NUC died for other reasons :-(