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I think we have failed Alan Perlis who said “I think that it's extraordinarily important that we in computer science keep fun in computing. When it started out

by dartos 2y ago

I think we have failed Alan Perlis who said “I think that it's extraordinarily important that we in computer science keep fun in computing. When it started out, it was an awful lot of fun. Of course, the paying customers got shafted every now and then, and after a while we began to take their complaints seriously. We began to feel as if we really were responsible for the successful, error-free perfect use of these machines. I don't think we are. I think we're responsible for stretching them, setting them off in new directions, and keeping fun in the house. I hope the field of computer science never loses its sense of fun.” Computing has all but been drained of its fun. There are pockets trying to retain it, but it gets harder and harder.

DrillShopper 2y ago
The second half of that quote is often omitted but I would argue is as important as the first: "Above all I hope we don’t become missionaries. Don’t feel as if you’re Bible sales-men. The world has too many of those already. What you know about computing other people will learn. Don’t feel as if the key to successful computing is only in your hands. What’s in your hands I think and hope is intelligence: the ability to see the machine as more than when you were ﬁrst led up to it that you can make it more." I've seen a lot of people in this community be dismissive of those outside if it except when they can court them as customer. I think this is a mistake. I would argue that we hackers are the vanguard of technological progress (well, as far as computers and electronics are concerned), but the vanguard isn't the only part to be concerned with. There is the long tail of everyone else who finally get the refined, consumer result of the prototypes we hack together (either for our employers, the company we found, or the things we sell independently). We need to understand that and make sure their needs and their safety are kept in mind while working on things. You'd be surprised what people can learn and what changes they can make if they have a safe space to do it in and they have the confidence that if they make a mistake that it's not going to end in catastrophe - either financially or physically.
- dartos 2y ago
  Unfortunately it seems none of that matters in the face of a payday. I wonder how different tech would be if intel started in Europe. I feel like the culture in the US, at least at large, is entirely money focused.
  - nradov 2y ago
    In the early days of computing there were several European chip companies which competed with Intel. The Acorn RISC Machine (ARM) processors that are widely used today were originally designed in the UK in 1985. For better or worse, chip design and manufacturing is tremendously capital intensive so you have to focus on money to make it sustainable over the long term.
nradov 2y ago
With all due respect to Alan Perlis, he seems to have mixed up Computer Science with Software Engineering. Those are different things. There is generally somewhat less room for fun in engineering disciplines (although not zero).
- dartos 2y ago
  I’d argue that software engineering doesn’t normally have the same rigor that say structural engineering has. Every structure has the potential to kill the inhabitants, but all software does not have the potential to kill its users. The stakes are very different. There’s definitely room for fun as a software engineer working in most companies.
  - xeonmc 2y ago
    I’ve heard great things about the fun-loving culture of the programming team at a certain radiotherapy vendor...
    - dartos 2y ago
      I chose my words very carefully
rented_mule 2y ago
A real life example in closed source development in a tech company that I experienced directly... A team organically chose a cute mascot animal and started doing things like bringing in stuffed animals of that animal and including visual puns involving that animal in presentations. The manager leaned into it, which caused people to find even more ways to have fun with it. As the team grew and split, it became the mascot of the group of teams. Some engineers got together and wrote a short graphic novel explaining the emergence of the mascot in the group. Eventually one of the engineers designed a logo for the group that was a cartoon version of the animal and subtly incorporated the group name into it (the name was almost an Easter egg that had to be discovered, it was very clever). Stickers of the logo were made and given to new engineers when they joined the group. People would use "where did you put your stickers?" as an ice-breaker to have a first conversation with new people. Reserved people who were hesitant about giving presentations were encouraged by getting laughs from their visual puns. It was all very silly, but it made a lot of people feel included in the group soon after joining, opening connections and fostering better communication / collaboration. Highly tangible benefits were easy to spot. This lasted for the better part of a decade. When the leader of the group (the original manager that leaned into it) left that role, the new leader viewed all the silliness as a distraction. He didn't explicitly kill it, but he did lean away from it. He never included any references to it in his presentations. When asked to reimburse a batch of stickers for new hires, he said the company can't waste money on things like that (less than a dollar per new hire). He spent hours removing all references, usually in the form of textual puns, from documentation. In a year or so, the mascot was relegated to nostalgia. New people were no longer meeting as many people in their first week and cohesion suffered. There was less fun in general. It was a big part of the group's culture becoming much more sterile and detached. When asked about it, the new leader proudly called that sterility "professionalism". A lot of people that had been in the group for many years called it "one less reason to stay". Years after the mascot faded away, there are still group dinners of ten or more former employees of that group, that happen multiple times a year. A recurring topic of discussion at those dinners is how to find a place to work that is so motivating and has such great teamwork. The silliness and simple jokes around that mascot were a big part of what made that group so cohesive. In fact, they were both a symptom and a cause, creating a positive feedback loop that helped build and maintain the group's culture.
mycall 2y ago
First principles come to mind here. What does compute even mean? Understand a problem and finding way to calculate a solution to it. In modern days, this means digitialization of analog reality. Discrete and replayable patterns of sequences, creating automation and intelligent automata. How could that never be fun? When money is the driving force.

by dartos 2y ago

DrillShopper 2y ago

The second half of that quote is often omitted but I would argue is as important as the first: "Above all I hope we don’t become missionaries. Don’t feel as if you’re Bible sales-men. The world has too many of those already. What you know about computing other people will learn. Don’t feel as if the key to successful computing is only in your hands. What’s in your hands I think and hope is intelligence: the ability to see the machine as more than when you were ﬁrst led up to it that you can make it more." I've seen a lot of people in this community be dismissive of those outside if it except when they can court them as customer. I think this is a mistake. I would argue that we hackers are the vanguard of technological progress (well, as far as computers and electronics are concerned), but the vanguard isn't the only part to be concerned with. There is the long tail of everyone else who finally get the refined, consumer result of the prototypes we hack together (either for our employers, the company we found, or the things we sell independently). We need to understand that and make sure their needs and their safety are kept in mind while working on things. You'd be surprised what people can learn and what changes they can make if they have a safe space to do it in and they have the confidence that if they make a mistake that it's not going to end in catastrophe - either financially or physically.

dartos 2y ago
Unfortunately it seems none of that matters in the face of a payday. I wonder how different tech would be if intel started in Europe. I feel like the culture in the US, at least at large, is entirely money focused.
- nradov 2y ago
  In the early days of computing there were several European chip companies which competed with Intel. The Acorn RISC Machine (ARM) processors that are widely used today were originally designed in the UK in 1985. For better or worse, chip design and manufacturing is tremendously capital intensive so you have to focus on money to make it sustainable over the long term.

nradov 2y ago

With all due respect to Alan Perlis, he seems to have mixed up Computer Science with Software Engineering. Those are different things. There is generally somewhat less room for fun in engineering disciplines (although not zero).

dartos 2y ago
I’d argue that software engineering doesn’t normally have the same rigor that say structural engineering has. Every structure has the potential to kill the inhabitants, but all software does not have the potential to kill its users. The stakes are very different. There’s definitely room for fun as a software engineer working in most companies.
- xeonmc 2y ago
  I’ve heard great things about the fun-loving culture of the programming team at a certain radiotherapy vendor...
  - dartos 2y ago
    I chose my words very carefully

rented_mule 2y ago

A real life example in closed source development in a tech company that I experienced directly... A team organically chose a cute mascot animal and started doing things like bringing in stuffed animals of that animal and including visual puns involving that animal in presentations. The manager leaned into it, which caused people to find even more ways to have fun with it. As the team grew and split, it became the mascot of the group of teams. Some engineers got together and wrote a short graphic novel explaining the emergence of the mascot in the group. Eventually one of the engineers designed a logo for the group that was a cartoon version of the animal and subtly incorporated the group name into it (the name was almost an Easter egg that had to be discovered, it was very clever). Stickers of the logo were made and given to new engineers when they joined the group. People would use "where did you put your stickers?" as an ice-breaker to have a first conversation with new people. Reserved people who were hesitant about giving presentations were encouraged by getting laughs from their visual puns. It was all very silly, but it made a lot of people feel included in the group soon after joining, opening connections and fostering better communication / collaboration. Highly tangible benefits were easy to spot. This lasted for the better part of a decade. When the leader of the group (the original manager that leaned into it) left that role, the new leader viewed all the silliness as a distraction. He didn't explicitly kill it, but he did lean away from it. He never included any references to it in his presentations. When asked to reimburse a batch of stickers for new hires, he said the company can't waste money on things like that (less than a dollar per new hire). He spent hours removing all references, usually in the form of textual puns, from documentation. In a year or so, the mascot was relegated to nostalgia. New people were no longer meeting as many people in their first week and cohesion suffered. There was less fun in general. It was a big part of the group's culture becoming much more sterile and detached. When asked about it, the new leader proudly called that sterility "professionalism". A lot of people that had been in the group for many years called it "one less reason to stay". Years after the mascot faded away, there are still group dinners of ten or more former employees of that group, that happen multiple times a year. A recurring topic of discussion at those dinners is how to find a place to work that is so motivating and has such great teamwork. The silliness and simple jokes around that mascot were a big part of what made that group so cohesive. In fact, they were both a symptom and a cause, creating a positive feedback loop that helped build and maintain the group's culture.

mycall 2y ago

First principles come to mind here. What does compute even mean? Understand a problem and finding way to calculate a solution to it. In modern days, this means digitialization of analog reality. Discrete and replayable patterns of sequences, creating automation and intelligent automata. How could that never be fun? When money is the driving force.