9 ms·

Doge-affiliated employee expected to seek access to IRS system

54 points by doener 2y ago

frereubu 2y ago
I wonder if this Trump presidency is the point where everyone who's said "you should treat all data as if it's public" are about to be proved right, although perhaps not in the way they expected.
- darkhorn 2y ago
  [flagged]
- janice1999 2y ago
  ... all the data of poor people that is.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- JohnTHaller 2y ago
  Trump and Musk's data won't be public, of course. Heck, Trump won't even release his tax returns.
cs702 2y ago
There's a thick, bright red line on the floor, as it were. On this side on the line, you have a country whose government respects the private tax data of citizens, controlling who has access to it with some kind of due process. On the other side of the line, you have a country that does not. Let's hope the US government, via DOGE, remains on this side of the line.
- jredwards 2y ago
  You know they won't.
- chatmasta 2y ago
  I’m not sure how thick that red line really is. I find it hard to believe that this IRS database is used strictly by the IRS and not shared with other agencies (whether in the intelligence community or otherwise). Frankly it doesn’t even matter - the NSA could plant somebody in the IRS and get access to it anyway. Overall I agree with your premise. There are certainly some safeguards already in place. But even those aren’t foolproof (e.g. an IRS employee leaked 45’s tax returns to NYT). The data is collected and it’s indexed in an automated retrieval system. Any barriers to that will inevitably be circumvented.
- know-how 2y ago
  [dead]
- kccoder 2y ago
  Trump, Musk, et al aren't known for respecting boundaries, norms, conventions, ... They don't have concern nor respect for the citizens they "serve". They only care about themselves, everyone else be damned. No chance they don't continue to cross every line they encounter.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- xethos 2y ago
  Yes, those dictatorial hellscapes of Sweden, Norway, and Finland. Or did you mean the other countries that have public tax returns? Like I'm not saying this isn't new to the US, and I'm not saying the Nordic models are perfect. But the hysteria in this comment is over the top, and allows others to dismiss why this is likely a bad idea without thinking.
  - LastTrain 2y ago
    Maybe tax returns should be public, maybe they shouldn't, but what does that have to do with what is going on here? This is currently private data being made available to a select few, currently without oversight.
    - xethos 2y ago
      GP's comment regarding the "Thick, bright red line on the floor" implies tax returns seeing the light of day should never happen in a democratic state. I take issue with that. I consider the terminology used in the comment to be hysterical, which allows Trump supporters to dismiss the entire story more easily. As far as without oversight: not reporting the entire chain of command does not mean there isn't one. The employee needed certain security clearances to access the system, and they've been granted them (per TFA) I think we agree on at least a few points though: Neither of us trust the current administration to actually vet who gets security clearance, to trust this is being done in good faith, to believe it will make a realistic difference in tax evasion (especially for the rich), that the time would not be better spent better financing the IRS, or that access will be used responsibly. I don't think this is a good idea. But let's minimize the histronics and over-the-top language. There's lots to criticize without allowing detractors an easy win.
      - LastTrain 2y ago
        I have a better idea. Let's not normalize what is happening. Let's not try to make people feel like chumps for having standards.
jokoon 2y ago
I don't know if latter news are just entertainment or history-making events. Whatever is happening in Washington, it doesn't sound like the president's opponents are going to try to stop him, for now. It sounds like this will keep going. This news cycle is going beyond anxiogenic like it was around 2017-18. I never know if I am witnessing something absurd or if it's the beginning of something serious. I generally prefer to think that my anxiety is blowing things out of proportion. As any adult would say, I keep saying "it's going to be fine". I am french, not american, so generally I am just more worried about NATO and Ukraine.
- the_snooze 2y ago
  >it doesn't sound like the president's opponents are going to try to stop him What opponents? The GOP that's been completely remade in the President's image? Or the Democrats that don't control any levers of power in Washington?
- Trasmatta 2y ago
  > Whatever is happening in Washington, it doesn't sound like the president's opponents are going to try to stop him, for now. It sounds like this will keep going. They are trying, but severely limited. The president has control over all 3 branches of government (including both halls of Congress).
  - anon2549 2y ago
    Isn't it funny, then, that when the Democrats had all three branches of government, the Republicans remained a reasonably effective opposition. The Democrats are failing at that, and it's wrong to say that's because they're actually powerless. They aren't. What they are is ineffective.
    - manfre 2y ago
      When the group in power is following the laws and procedures, it is usually quite easy to obstruct. When the group in power is not following the laws and procedures, you have the current situation.
askonomm 2y ago
When Idiocracy the comedy film becomes a documentary.
xnx 2y ago
I would only be in support of this if it were part of everyone's taxes being public as others have advocated: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/13/opinion/sunday/taxes-public.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/13/opinion/sunday/taxes-publ...
ck2 2y ago
When a President publicly hangs his felony mugshot next to all the other paintings of the previous Presidents he's announcing his identity and belief system and making his criminal past part of his future so it all becomes meaningless Combined with this quote, expect people to be disappearing soon, actually he technically has already erased certain classes of people on paper, so physically next is not a big step from there. * https://media.zenfs.com/en/buzzfeed_articles_778/15b6c083febab478f3df9f9f6476dc46 https://media.zenfs.com/en/buzzfeed_articles_778/15b6c083feb... That quote was made in week 4. There are over 200 more weeks to go. What law is going to be too far when he's not running for re-election one way or another?
abernard1 2y ago
As a history refresher: DOGE is part of the USDS, created by Barack Obama in 2014. Dealing with PII was an overt part of their remit, as the Medicare system (written in COBOL) had substantial difficulties dealing with regulatory change, and it was to be modernized. As special government employees, they were 1) consultants not appointed through the regular process and 2) had widespread access to software systems and private data across the federal government. And yes, many of them were the age of current DOGE employees. At its height, there were 700+ employees with varying levels of access like this. Accessing PII is normal for federal contractors, even young ones. I worked on the maintenance database for the F-35 strike fighter when I was 23. There are tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people through the federal system and contractors with access to information like this.
- nathanaldensr 2y ago
  Thank you for introducing some facts into this cesspool of handwringing and pearl-clutching. Of course, facts will be downvoted, but we both expect that.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  Apart from the access being normal, even if it weren’t, it is bizarre that people are obsessing over these details daily. The same people did not care what their administration did daily previously. They probably also were happy to see Trump’s tax returns leaked. They didn’t care when various large security breaches happened last year. But suddenly privacy is a life and death issue. This is partisanship taken to an extreme degree.
- LastTrain 2y ago
  This one has been fascinating to watch because it is moving so fast it is almost not leaving enough time for the conservative universe to marshal their rationalization machine. This is not being run like the USDS at all, there is no oversight, no published protocols, no firewalling. Basically, no rules. This ain't normal, and you shouldn't be trying to convince people it is.
josefritzishere 2y ago
All your financial data, in the hands of idiot teenagers who already accidently laid off nuclear regulators, and posted an unlocked database. great. That's leaking within days
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
[dupe] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43073471 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43073471

54 points by doener 2y ago

I wonder if this Trump presidency is the point where everyone who's said "you should treat all data as if it's public" are about to be proved right, although perhaps not in the way they expected.

darkhorn 2y ago
[flagged]
janice1999 2y ago
... all the data of poor people that is.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
JohnTHaller 2y ago
Trump and Musk's data won't be public, of course. Heck, Trump won't even release his tax returns.

cs702 2y ago

There's a thick, bright red line on the floor, as it were. On this side on the line, you have a country whose government respects the private tax data of citizens, controlling who has access to it with some kind of due process. On the other side of the line, you have a country that does not. Let's hope the US government, via DOGE, remains on this side of the line.

jredwards 2y ago
You know they won't.
chatmasta 2y ago
I’m not sure how thick that red line really is. I find it hard to believe that this IRS database is used strictly by the IRS and not shared with other agencies (whether in the intelligence community or otherwise). Frankly it doesn’t even matter - the NSA could plant somebody in the IRS and get access to it anyway. Overall I agree with your premise. There are certainly some safeguards already in place. But even those aren’t foolproof (e.g. an IRS employee leaked 45’s tax returns to NYT). The data is collected and it’s indexed in an automated retrieval system. Any barriers to that will inevitably be circumvented.
know-how 2y ago
[dead]
kccoder 2y ago
Trump, Musk, et al aren't known for respecting boundaries, norms, conventions, ... They don't have concern nor respect for the citizens they "serve". They only care about themselves, everyone else be damned. No chance they don't continue to cross every line they encounter.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
xethos 2y ago
Yes, those dictatorial hellscapes of Sweden, Norway, and Finland. Or did you mean the other countries that have public tax returns? Like I'm not saying this isn't new to the US, and I'm not saying the Nordic models are perfect. But the hysteria in this comment is over the top, and allows others to dismiss why this is likely a bad idea without thinking.
- LastTrain 2y ago
  Maybe tax returns should be public, maybe they shouldn't, but what does that have to do with what is going on here? This is currently private data being made available to a select few, currently without oversight.
  - xethos 2y ago
    GP's comment regarding the "Thick, bright red line on the floor" implies tax returns seeing the light of day should never happen in a democratic state. I take issue with that. I consider the terminology used in the comment to be hysterical, which allows Trump supporters to dismiss the entire story more easily. As far as without oversight: not reporting the entire chain of command does not mean there isn't one. The employee needed certain security clearances to access the system, and they've been granted them (per TFA) I think we agree on at least a few points though: Neither of us trust the current administration to actually vet who gets security clearance, to trust this is being done in good faith, to believe it will make a realistic difference in tax evasion (especially for the rich), that the time would not be better spent better financing the IRS, or that access will be used responsibly. I don't think this is a good idea. But let's minimize the histronics and over-the-top language. There's lots to criticize without allowing detractors an easy win.
    - LastTrain 2y ago
      I have a better idea. Let's not normalize what is happening. Let's not try to make people feel like chumps for having standards.

jokoon 2y ago

I don't know if latter news are just entertainment or history-making events. Whatever is happening in Washington, it doesn't sound like the president's opponents are going to try to stop him, for now. It sounds like this will keep going. This news cycle is going beyond anxiogenic like it was around 2017-18. I never know if I am witnessing something absurd or if it's the beginning of something serious. I generally prefer to think that my anxiety is blowing things out of proportion. As any adult would say, I keep saying "it's going to be fine". I am french, not american, so generally I am just more worried about NATO and Ukraine.

the_snooze 2y ago
>it doesn't sound like the president's opponents are going to try to stop him What opponents? The GOP that's been completely remade in the President's image? Or the Democrats that don't control any levers of power in Washington?
Trasmatta 2y ago
> Whatever is happening in Washington, it doesn't sound like the president's opponents are going to try to stop him, for now. It sounds like this will keep going. They are trying, but severely limited. The president has control over all 3 branches of government (including both halls of Congress).
- anon2549 2y ago
  Isn't it funny, then, that when the Democrats had all three branches of government, the Republicans remained a reasonably effective opposition. The Democrats are failing at that, and it's wrong to say that's because they're actually powerless. They aren't. What they are is ineffective.
  - manfre 2y ago
    When the group in power is following the laws and procedures, it is usually quite easy to obstruct. When the group in power is not following the laws and procedures, you have the current situation.

askonomm 2y ago

When Idiocracy the comedy film becomes a documentary.

xnx 2y ago

I would only be in support of this if it were part of everyone's taxes being public as others have advocated: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/13/opinion/sunday/taxes-public.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/13/opinion/sunday/taxes-publ...

ck2 2y ago

When a President publicly hangs his felony mugshot next to all the other paintings of the previous Presidents he's announcing his identity and belief system and making his criminal past part of his future so it all becomes meaningless Combined with this quote, expect people to be disappearing soon, actually he technically has already erased certain classes of people on paper, so physically next is not a big step from there. * https://media.zenfs.com/en/buzzfeed_articles_778/15b6c083febab478f3df9f9f6476dc46 https://media.zenfs.com/en/buzzfeed_articles_778/15b6c083feb... That quote was made in week 4. There are over 200 more weeks to go. What law is going to be too far when he's not running for re-election one way or another?

abernard1 2y ago

As a history refresher: DOGE is part of the USDS, created by Barack Obama in 2014. Dealing with PII was an overt part of their remit, as the Medicare system (written in COBOL) had substantial difficulties dealing with regulatory change, and it was to be modernized. As special government employees, they were 1) consultants not appointed through the regular process and 2) had widespread access to software systems and private data across the federal government. And yes, many of them were the age of current DOGE employees. At its height, there were 700+ employees with varying levels of access like this. Accessing PII is normal for federal contractors, even young ones. I worked on the maintenance database for the F-35 strike fighter when I was 23. There are tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people through the federal system and contractors with access to information like this.

nathanaldensr 2y ago
Thank you for introducing some facts into this cesspool of handwringing and pearl-clutching. Of course, facts will be downvoted, but we both expect that.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
Apart from the access being normal, even if it weren’t, it is bizarre that people are obsessing over these details daily. The same people did not care what their administration did daily previously. They probably also were happy to see Trump’s tax returns leaked. They didn’t care when various large security breaches happened last year. But suddenly privacy is a life and death issue. This is partisanship taken to an extreme degree.
LastTrain 2y ago
This one has been fascinating to watch because it is moving so fast it is almost not leaving enough time for the conservative universe to marshal their rationalization machine. This is not being run like the USDS at all, there is no oversight, no published protocols, no firewalling. Basically, no rules. This ain't normal, and you shouldn't be trying to convince people it is.

josefritzishere 2y ago

All your financial data, in the hands of idiot teenagers who already accidently laid off nuclear regulators, and posted an unlocked database. great. That's leaking within days

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

[dupe] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43073471 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43073471