15 ms·

I mean the article dances around it. I hate to say this, but we have to face reality. It is empathy that is in great part responsible for for the crime ridden

I mean the article dances around it. I hate to say this, but we have to face reality. It is empathy that is in great part responsible for for the crime ridden shit show that is much of SF. How do we balance empathy while making SF not a gigantic pile of shit? I don't think there is an answer here. It's choose one, or choose the other.

slantedview 2y ago
I thought it was expensive housing.
- ninetyninenine 2y ago
  You thought wrong. SF gave out free syringes and created laws that were empathetic to robbers and thieves. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/san-francisco-sign-stolen-goods/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/san-francisco-sign-stolen-...
  - kurikuri 2y ago
    What does that snopes article have to do with what you said? Free syringes make sense because people will find disease-prone means to get their fix, and then they end up in emergency rooms requiring more expensive care.
    - ninetyninenine 2y ago
      The sign is a satirical prank made to show awareness of a specific law.
  - majormajor 2y ago
    Which part of that link is the part you mean to emphasize? Is it just Prop 47? Cause then a more direct link to it than to a picture of a fake sign would probably be more compelling. (And in that case, that's not a city-level law anyway.)
    - ninetyninenine 2y ago
      The sign illustrates the spirit of the law. I'd rather talk about that then the technicalities of a legal document.
  - notthemessiah 2y ago
    > SF ... created laws that were empathetic to robbers and thieves. You're right in that SF does way too much to accommodate robber barons, tech moguls, heavily-subsidized Silicon Valley industries, and housing speculators.
  - ta1243 2y ago
    That link proves you wrong
  - bongripper 2y ago
    [dead]
  - throw16180339 2y ago
    The sign refers to Proposition 47 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_California_Proposition_47 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_California_Proposition_47), a statewide initiative that passed in 2014; it's absurd to blame the city of San Francisco for it.
archagon 2y ago
"We have to face reality" is a thought-terminating cliche. The causes of homelessness are myriad and there's a ton of conservative propaganda denigrating left-leaning politics. Also, many would beg to differ that SF is a "gigantic pile of shit."
- ninetyninenine 2y ago
  So? Did I say it wasn't myriad? Tons of SF policies are responsible for it. >Also, many would beg to differ that SF is a "gigantic pile of shit." It's like the myriad of people living in North Korea who think it's the greatest country in the world. There's reality and then there's people who don't face it.
  - archagon 2y ago
    > Tons of SF policies are responsible for it. Which ones? Are there stats showing before/after unhoused numbers? > There's reality and then there's people who don't face it. I guess I'm just too brainwashed to be miserable living in the Mission.
    - ninetyninenine 2y ago
      Are you not aware that San Francisco was the site of the biggest population exodus out of any city? You may not be miserable but if you’re unable to comprehend why that exodus happened then you’re completely out of touch. I’m too lazy to find stats and stats may not exist anyway. You don’t need science to prove to you the ground exists when you get up in the morning. You use your common sense for that.
      - archagon 2y ago
        I'm hearing a lot of appeal to emotion, not facts. With regard to migration, I frequently see expensive CoL and remote work vis-a-vis the pandemic cited as primary reasons, not homelessness or crime. If you have reputable sources saying otherwise, please cite them.
james4k 2y ago
Empathy created the housing crisis?
- ninetyninenine 2y ago
  prop 47 and free syringes. The housing crisis extends across the bay area and SF is noticeably shittier then most places int he bay area. So it's likely not the housing crisis that is the reason why SF is particularly bad.
  - notthemessiah 2y ago
    San Francisco doesn't even have free Narcan, which many US cities do. And of course syringes will flood the streets when you don't have safe injection sites. SF needs to learn from Portugal on how to address the drug crises. Also, it just needs to build denser to accommodate housing demand.
    - slater 2y ago
      > San Francisco doesn't even have free Narcan It does: https://www.sf.gov/information--overdose-prevention-resources-nightlife https://www.sf.gov/information--overdose-prevention-resource...
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - vlovich123 2y ago
    People always say this, and yet it just seems more like SF is the tip of the spear to changes that the rest of the area faces. I remember when people were decrying the homeless epidemic in SF only for El Camino in South Bay to start having significant homeless population spring up. And then LA’s housing problem also got markedly worse. And people decry that it’s “Californian” politics only for the same problems to pop up later in their neck of the woods. These are growing systemic national and global problems with our social fabric falling apart and the response for many seems to be “take care of me first”. You even see it with the huge political backlash globally.
xivzgrev 2y ago
I mean, empathy for a criminal is ensuring they have their day in court. Free counsel if they can’t afford. Innocent until proven guilty. But their rights can’t trump victims, that’s not justice. Like someone else mentioned prop 47 was a bad idea.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  > empathy for a criminal is ensuring they have their day in court. Free counsel if they can’t afford. Innocent until proven guilty That's not empathy. Empathy is being sympathetic to someone based on how similar they are to you. You're talking about much older, less relative concepts, such as equality under the law and limits on what the state can do to people.
ncr100 2y ago
Ah Empathy is not what screwed up these guys' childhoods. Don't blame empathy without acknowledging that both of these people are black in America. There are so many reasons why this happened and it's way more than just San Francisco being supposedly more empathetic. Rhetorically speaking, how about the fact that China is quite happy to supply precursor drugs to help make fentanyl cheap? How is that related to San Francisco's perceived empathy? Again, rhetorically. It makes me angry that this problem is reduced so frequently when it's been proven time and time and time to be a complex problem. It's almost like citizens / voters / taxpayers are willing to play sport with this problem in order to score some kinds of points around being right, or to avoid the sense of blaming oneself, because they know they can do something about it and yet they aren't. Being honest is a big part of making progress with this, and I think honestly this problem is way more complex than many of us have actually appropriately characterized. The article goes a long way towards characterizing the problem well, by talking about each individuals, perspectives, situations, and how the system succeeded or fails, knocking them off the path to gaining public support.

slantedview 2y ago

I thought it was expensive housing.

ninetyninenine 2y ago
You thought wrong. SF gave out free syringes and created laws that were empathetic to robbers and thieves. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/san-francisco-sign-stolen-goods/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/san-francisco-sign-stolen-...
- kurikuri 2y ago
  What does that snopes article have to do with what you said? Free syringes make sense because people will find disease-prone means to get their fix, and then they end up in emergency rooms requiring more expensive care.
  - ninetyninenine 2y ago
    The sign is a satirical prank made to show awareness of a specific law.
- majormajor 2y ago
  Which part of that link is the part you mean to emphasize? Is it just Prop 47? Cause then a more direct link to it than to a picture of a fake sign would probably be more compelling. (And in that case, that's not a city-level law anyway.)
  - ninetyninenine 2y ago
    The sign illustrates the spirit of the law. I'd rather talk about that then the technicalities of a legal document.
- notthemessiah 2y ago
  > SF ... created laws that were empathetic to robbers and thieves. You're right in that SF does way too much to accommodate robber barons, tech moguls, heavily-subsidized Silicon Valley industries, and housing speculators.
- ta1243 2y ago
  That link proves you wrong
- bongripper 2y ago
  [dead]
- throw16180339 2y ago
  The sign refers to Proposition 47 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_California_Proposition_47 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_California_Proposition_47), a statewide initiative that passed in 2014; it's absurd to blame the city of San Francisco for it.

archagon 2y ago

"We have to face reality" is a thought-terminating cliche. The causes of homelessness are myriad and there's a ton of conservative propaganda denigrating left-leaning politics. Also, many would beg to differ that SF is a "gigantic pile of shit."

ninetyninenine 2y ago
So? Did I say it wasn't myriad? Tons of SF policies are responsible for it. >Also, many would beg to differ that SF is a "gigantic pile of shit." It's like the myriad of people living in North Korea who think it's the greatest country in the world. There's reality and then there's people who don't face it.
- archagon 2y ago
  > Tons of SF policies are responsible for it. Which ones? Are there stats showing before/after unhoused numbers? > There's reality and then there's people who don't face it. I guess I'm just too brainwashed to be miserable living in the Mission.
  - ninetyninenine 2y ago
    Are you not aware that San Francisco was the site of the biggest population exodus out of any city? You may not be miserable but if you’re unable to comprehend why that exodus happened then you’re completely out of touch. I’m too lazy to find stats and stats may not exist anyway. You don’t need science to prove to you the ground exists when you get up in the morning. You use your common sense for that.
    - archagon 2y ago
      I'm hearing a lot of appeal to emotion, not facts. With regard to migration, I frequently see expensive CoL and remote work vis-a-vis the pandemic cited as primary reasons, not homelessness or crime. If you have reputable sources saying otherwise, please cite them.

james4k 2y ago

Empathy created the housing crisis?

ninetyninenine 2y ago
prop 47 and free syringes. The housing crisis extends across the bay area and SF is noticeably shittier then most places int he bay area. So it's likely not the housing crisis that is the reason why SF is particularly bad.
- notthemessiah 2y ago
  San Francisco doesn't even have free Narcan, which many US cities do. And of course syringes will flood the streets when you don't have safe injection sites. SF needs to learn from Portugal on how to address the drug crises. Also, it just needs to build denser to accommodate housing demand.
  - slater 2y ago
    > San Francisco doesn't even have free Narcan It does: https://www.sf.gov/information--overdose-prevention-resources-nightlife https://www.sf.gov/information--overdose-prevention-resource...
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- vlovich123 2y ago
  People always say this, and yet it just seems more like SF is the tip of the spear to changes that the rest of the area faces. I remember when people were decrying the homeless epidemic in SF only for El Camino in South Bay to start having significant homeless population spring up. And then LA’s housing problem also got markedly worse. And people decry that it’s “Californian” politics only for the same problems to pop up later in their neck of the woods. These are growing systemic national and global problems with our social fabric falling apart and the response for many seems to be “take care of me first”. You even see it with the huge political backlash globally.

xivzgrev 2y ago

I mean, empathy for a criminal is ensuring they have their day in court. Free counsel if they can’t afford. Innocent until proven guilty. But their rights can’t trump victims, that’s not justice. Like someone else mentioned prop 47 was a bad idea.

robertlagrant 2y ago
> empathy for a criminal is ensuring they have their day in court. Free counsel if they can’t afford. Innocent until proven guilty That's not empathy. Empathy is being sympathetic to someone based on how similar they are to you. You're talking about much older, less relative concepts, such as equality under the law and limits on what the state can do to people.

ncr100 2y ago

Ah Empathy is not what screwed up these guys' childhoods. Don't blame empathy without acknowledging that both of these people are black in America. There are so many reasons why this happened and it's way more than just San Francisco being supposedly more empathetic. Rhetorically speaking, how about the fact that China is quite happy to supply precursor drugs to help make fentanyl cheap? How is that related to San Francisco's perceived empathy? Again, rhetorically. It makes me angry that this problem is reduced so frequently when it's been proven time and time and time to be a complex problem. It's almost like citizens / voters / taxpayers are willing to play sport with this problem in order to score some kinds of points around being right, or to avoid the sense of blaming oneself, because they know they can do something about it and yet they aren't. Being honest is a big part of making progress with this, and I think honestly this problem is way more complex than many of us have actually appropriately characterized. The article goes a long way towards characterizing the problem well, by talking about each individuals, perspectives, situations, and how the system succeeded or fails, knocking them off the path to gaining public support.