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We have some really phoning it in zoom folks we've hired who do their job semi ok but are just awful and don't contribute to culture, are super dialed out. I d

We have some really phoning it in zoom folks we've hired who do their job semi ok but are just awful and don't contribute to culture, are super dialed out. I don't want to totally damn them, because they have families and lives and other things going. But I've had a number of coworkers tell me they have re-adapted their code review to say near nothing (it won't be well received) and to otherwise end their own good-culture practices to adapt to really hostile remote culture. The thing is, this isn't at all zoom. This isn't remote. It's companies that are just shit poor bad about letting bottom up knowledge trickle up. It's about terrible management that has made being in touch with their workforce hard. And in most cases, that's not the workforce: it's the management, it's the company. It's easier to do this job of running a company in person, to spy & get information. But it's your laziness, it's your being awful at your job, that makes you rely on this in-touch layer.

Uehreka 2y ago
> We have some really dialing it in zoom folks we've hired Do you mean “phoning it in”? Being “dialed in” and “phoning it in” are opposites, it was a little unclear which you meant from context.
- jauntywundrkind 2y ago
  Updated, yes.
gotoeleven 2y ago
How do you get people to stop looking at their fucking phones during zoom meetings? Sure if we had a magic perfect management fairy that could sprinkle perfect management skills on the managers maybe people would be better at working remotely but people are mostly lazy and will mostly do whatever they can get away with. And its way easier to get away with looking at your fucking phone during a zoom meeting than an in person meeting.
- harry8 2y ago
  How do you get management to take their job seriously? Sure if we had magic perfect meeting dust but people are mostly lazy…
- prododev 2y ago
  [dead]
- ryandrake 2y ago
  If people are checked out during meetings, maybe they don't really have to be there. When I set up a meeting I try to ensure only people who really, really need to be there are invited. Way too many meetings are like: "1. Eng Lead Presenter, 2. VP who's receiving the update, and 3-10. Team members involved in the project." If 3-10 are not expected to speak/contribute and already know what 1 is presenting, why the fuck are they there? To sit there and pick their noses? They could be a lot more focused and productive back at their desks (or not connected to video conference). I don't invite them, and if I invite them by mistake and they know they aren't contributing, I expect them to decline and not show up! I don’t want tourists at my meetings. Companies where non-contributors and non-receivers feel pressured to come to meetings just to show their faces are Doing It Wrong.
  - gotoeleven 2y ago
    Nope suppose they do need to be there and they arent listening because they're sending text messages and then when they are asked for their opinion they are lost because they weren't listening. This is the norm for zoom meetings.
    - hardlianotion 2y ago
      this is fixed for in person meetings is it?
    - dijksterhuis 2y ago
      it sounds to me like they don’t believe they need to be there / to care about the meeting, but you do. that’s sounds like the real problem you need to address, the real underlying conflict between you and them. so… why don’t they care about your meeting…? if you can fix that problem, you might naturally solve the phone problem. they might start giving a shit.
dijksterhuis 2y ago
i sort of agree wit your sentiment, although probably would use more nuanced language about it. i’ve had this exact conversation with my 70+ still working father so many times now. i’ve heard the rant in the article over and over again. and, like, he blames remote work too. “its the fucking zoom bullshit”. but then i explain to him how i do remote work and suddenly gets it. like, remote working means you are required to work in a more direct and efficient way. you have to work hard at comms. you have to write everything with purpose. no “oh hey did you look at X”. instead “hey we need X done by T because otherwise Y. if you need to speak to P about it, they’re available this afternoon. contact me if anything is unclear and i’ll explain it to you on a call asap. let me know when you’ve read this please.”. like, i’ve debugged a production outage on my phone with other devs while in a doctors waiting room. the problem is, yeah, a lot of people do treat it like a chance to sit at home doing the bare minimum. and i think you kind of hit the nail on the head for something i hadn’t clocked. they can get away with it because “management” utterly suck at their jobs and haven’t adapted. like, i hear about people stuck in zoom meetings all the time… WHY?!? you don’t need face to face comms to work remotely. at all. it’s clinging on to the old ways of doing things! up until now i’d been putting it down to a purely generational “can’t teach old dogs new tricks” thing. maybe it kind of is, just not in a way i’d seen before.
- spondylosaurus 2y ago
  Bingo. Remote work requires/rewards good communication, and amplifies the ill effects of poor communication. You have to put in the effort, but a lot of people don't know how or don't think they need to!
- greesil 2y ago
  What I've noticed is that people don't seem to have the attention span to read the document or memo I wrote, and the meeting is so they can get the TL;DR.
  - dijksterhuis 2y ago
    oh god yeah these people do my head in. i haven’t found a good strategy for them yet.

Uehreka 2y ago

> We have some really dialing it in zoom folks we've hired Do you mean “phoning it in”? Being “dialed in” and “phoning it in” are opposites, it was a little unclear which you meant from context.

jauntywundrkind 2y ago
Updated, yes.

gotoeleven 2y ago

How do you get people to stop looking at their fucking phones during zoom meetings? Sure if we had a magic perfect management fairy that could sprinkle perfect management skills on the managers maybe people would be better at working remotely but people are mostly lazy and will mostly do whatever they can get away with. And its way easier to get away with looking at your fucking phone during a zoom meeting than an in person meeting.

harry8 2y ago
How do you get management to take their job seriously? Sure if we had magic perfect meeting dust but people are mostly lazy…
prododev 2y ago
[dead]
ryandrake 2y ago
If people are checked out during meetings, maybe they don't really have to be there. When I set up a meeting I try to ensure only people who really, really need to be there are invited. Way too many meetings are like: "1. Eng Lead Presenter, 2. VP who's receiving the update, and 3-10. Team members involved in the project." If 3-10 are not expected to speak/contribute and already know what 1 is presenting, why the fuck are they there? To sit there and pick their noses? They could be a lot more focused and productive back at their desks (or not connected to video conference). I don't invite them, and if I invite them by mistake and they know they aren't contributing, I expect them to decline and not show up! I don’t want tourists at my meetings. Companies where non-contributors and non-receivers feel pressured to come to meetings just to show their faces are Doing It Wrong.
- gotoeleven 2y ago
  Nope suppose they do need to be there and they arent listening because they're sending text messages and then when they are asked for their opinion they are lost because they weren't listening. This is the norm for zoom meetings.
  - hardlianotion 2y ago
    this is fixed for in person meetings is it?
  - dijksterhuis 2y ago
    it sounds to me like they don’t believe they need to be there / to care about the meeting, but you do. that’s sounds like the real problem you need to address, the real underlying conflict between you and them. so… why don’t they care about your meeting…? if you can fix that problem, you might naturally solve the phone problem. they might start giving a shit.

dijksterhuis 2y ago

i sort of agree wit your sentiment, although probably would use more nuanced language about it. i’ve had this exact conversation with my 70+ still working father so many times now. i’ve heard the rant in the article over and over again. and, like, he blames remote work too. “its the fucking zoom bullshit”. but then i explain to him how i do remote work and suddenly gets it. like, remote working means you are required to work in a more direct and efficient way. you have to work hard at comms. you have to write everything with purpose. no “oh hey did you look at X”. instead “hey we need X done by T because otherwise Y. if you need to speak to P about it, they’re available this afternoon. contact me if anything is unclear and i’ll explain it to you on a call asap. let me know when you’ve read this please.”. like, i’ve debugged a production outage on my phone with other devs while in a doctors waiting room. the problem is, yeah, a lot of people do treat it like a chance to sit at home doing the bare minimum. and i think you kind of hit the nail on the head for something i hadn’t clocked. they can get away with it because “management” utterly suck at their jobs and haven’t adapted. like, i hear about people stuck in zoom meetings all the time… WHY?!? you don’t need face to face comms to work remotely. at all. it’s clinging on to the old ways of doing things! up until now i’d been putting it down to a purely generational “can’t teach old dogs new tricks” thing. maybe it kind of is, just not in a way i’d seen before.

spondylosaurus 2y ago
Bingo. Remote work requires/rewards good communication, and amplifies the ill effects of poor communication. You have to put in the effort, but a lot of people don't know how or don't think they need to!
greesil 2y ago
What I've noticed is that people don't seem to have the attention span to read the document or memo I wrote, and the meeting is so they can get the TL;DR.
- dijksterhuis 2y ago
  oh god yeah these people do my head in. i haven’t found a good strategy for them yet.