5 ms·

Every time each one of these actions finally appears in front of a court, it is almost always stopped in whole or part. There's a growing list I don't have han

by ck2 2y ago

Every time each one of these actions finally appears in front of a court, it is almost always stopped in whole or part. There's a growing list I don't have handy but easy to google I get part of the strategy is exhaustion and make sure no-one wants to ever work for federal government again but what exactly happens when they run out of agencies to destroy and refuse court orders to restore?

fncypants 2y ago
And what happens when they're successful even in part and we dump a lot of unemployed workers all at once into the job market in the private sector? Measured and calculated reform is one things. Smashing things without addressing what happens next is just kindergarten level stupidity. But then again, maybe crashing the job market with masses of unemployed, which will drive down wages and labor bargaining power, is exactly their strategy.
- 6stringmerc 2y ago
  Very good perspective and I’m genuinely curious how this - in time - may interact with the H1B / skilled worker Visa programs in the US. For all the discussions about re-training for workforce needs, I see a genuinely human conflict perhaps around the corner.
justinator 2y ago
> There's a growing list I don't have handy but easy to google If you wanna talk about it, please make this list. Unless your theory of compliance via exhaustion applies to you too. And in that case they won. And we're all going to lose.
- bodhi_mind 2y ago
  https://www.justsecurity.org/107087/tracker-litigation-legal-challenges-trump-administration/ https://www.justsecurity.org/107087/tracker-litigation-legal...
  - justinator 2y ago
    An excellent resource. Everyone should check this page out. It's... not short.
inciampati 2y ago
To date there is no evidence that any court order has been respected. The crisis continues.
dmazin 2y ago
I am just praying for the day that Musk takes on the Pentagon. They will destroy him. (There's a reason Bannon is egging him on to do it.) And if they don't... well, Pentagon is one agency where we know the financial inefficiency is legendary.
drc37 2y ago
Actually, most of the items that an activist judge initially blocked have since been overturned and allowed to progress through higher-court judges.
- freejazz 2y ago
  There's several judges that have made decisions adverse to Elon's actions and I'm not sure why you think they are activist aside from Elon's self-serving description of them. Where did you see that their decisions were overturned, I have not seen that anywhere. The last I did see on the issue is that Elon is calling for all of them to be impeached.
- singleshot_ 2y ago
  Would you mind providing a caption for such an appeal that the administration has won? I’d love to read it. Right now I’m only finding the CA1 upholding the funding freeze, and CA9 is about to take up the birthright citizenship order.
ARandumGuy 2y ago
> I get part of the strategy is exhaustion and make sure no-one wants to ever work for federal government again It's difficult to tell what their strategy is. There's so much chaos going on that it's impossible to say for sure what the end game is. But we can make some guesses. They could be assuming the supreme court overturns the lower courts, allowing them to do everything unopposed. They may be trying to overwhelm the system, allowing at least some stuff to get through. They may be trying to drive out federal employees, weakening the federal bureaucracy. Or they might just be idiots who are moving fast without stopping to consider the consequences of their actions. Ultimately, regardless of their specific end goal, the best course to stop them is to try and slow them down at every opportunity. We may not be able to fully stop them, but the more we can slow them down, the more we can minimize the damage.
freejazz 2y ago
Elon is calling for any judge that opposes his actions to be impeached.
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  He can call for that all day, its not going to matter. A major reason they are relying on executive fiat protected by a passive Congress is that even a Republican Congress doesn't want recorded votes on most of their agenda, good luck getting their political retaliation through a process that takes a majority in the House followed by a supermajority that would require substantial Democratic support in the Senate.
  - freejazz 2y ago
    I'm not convinced it wont matter. And I don't agree with your reasoning why.
  - kagakuninja 2y ago
    Elon / Trump will ignore court orders they don't like, they are basically doing that already. The only remedy will be impeachment. It is extremely unlikely that Republicans will remove Trump from office, and so the coup will continue.
    - dragonwriter 2y ago
      > Elon / Trump will ignore court orders they don't like, they are basically doing that already. Yes, but weaken the appearance of legality may make it difficult for them to continue to secure compliance with their dictates. > The only remedy will be impeachment. The only remaining legal remedy will be impeachment, but as long as he can secure compliance, a conviction and order removing him by the Senate is no different than an order to stop a particular action from a court. However, eroding the cultural relevance of the principal of legality makes it increasingly likely that the there will be resort to extralegal (whether expressly illegal or in a deep grey zone law does not address because it is impossible for the situation it concerns to exist while the law is functioning in any meaningful way) remedies at some point.
keernan 2y ago
JD Vance has made clear they are following the pre-election script: The Judiciary does not have the constitutional authority to compel the Executive to do, or stop doing, anything. They are simply going to ignore SCOTUS and, since SCOTUS has zero enforcement mechanism, there is nothing SCOTUS can do about it. PS US Marshals are part of the Executive Branch.

by ck2 2y ago

fncypants 2y ago

And what happens when they're successful even in part and we dump a lot of unemployed workers all at once into the job market in the private sector? Measured and calculated reform is one things. Smashing things without addressing what happens next is just kindergarten level stupidity. But then again, maybe crashing the job market with masses of unemployed, which will drive down wages and labor bargaining power, is exactly their strategy.

6stringmerc 2y ago
Very good perspective and I’m genuinely curious how this - in time - may interact with the H1B / skilled worker Visa programs in the US. For all the discussions about re-training for workforce needs, I see a genuinely human conflict perhaps around the corner.

justinator 2y ago

> There's a growing list I don't have handy but easy to google If you wanna talk about it, please make this list. Unless your theory of compliance via exhaustion applies to you too. And in that case they won. And we're all going to lose.

bodhi_mind 2y ago
https://www.justsecurity.org/107087/tracker-litigation-legal-challenges-trump-administration/ https://www.justsecurity.org/107087/tracker-litigation-legal...
- justinator 2y ago
  An excellent resource. Everyone should check this page out. It's... not short.

inciampati 2y ago

To date there is no evidence that any court order has been respected. The crisis continues.

dmazin 2y ago

I am just praying for the day that Musk takes on the Pentagon. They will destroy him. (There's a reason Bannon is egging him on to do it.) And if they don't... well, Pentagon is one agency where we know the financial inefficiency is legendary.

drc37 2y ago

Actually, most of the items that an activist judge initially blocked have since been overturned and allowed to progress through higher-court judges.

freejazz 2y ago
There's several judges that have made decisions adverse to Elon's actions and I'm not sure why you think they are activist aside from Elon's self-serving description of them. Where did you see that their decisions were overturned, I have not seen that anywhere. The last I did see on the issue is that Elon is calling for all of them to be impeached.
singleshot_ 2y ago
Would you mind providing a caption for such an appeal that the administration has won? I’d love to read it. Right now I’m only finding the CA1 upholding the funding freeze, and CA9 is about to take up the birthright citizenship order.

ARandumGuy 2y ago

> I get part of the strategy is exhaustion and make sure no-one wants to ever work for federal government again It's difficult to tell what their strategy is. There's so much chaos going on that it's impossible to say for sure what the end game is. But we can make some guesses. They could be assuming the supreme court overturns the lower courts, allowing them to do everything unopposed. They may be trying to overwhelm the system, allowing at least some stuff to get through. They may be trying to drive out federal employees, weakening the federal bureaucracy. Or they might just be idiots who are moving fast without stopping to consider the consequences of their actions. Ultimately, regardless of their specific end goal, the best course to stop them is to try and slow them down at every opportunity. We may not be able to fully stop them, but the more we can slow them down, the more we can minimize the damage.

freejazz 2y ago

Elon is calling for any judge that opposes his actions to be impeached.

dragonwriter 2y ago
He can call for that all day, its not going to matter. A major reason they are relying on executive fiat protected by a passive Congress is that even a Republican Congress doesn't want recorded votes on most of their agenda, good luck getting their political retaliation through a process that takes a majority in the House followed by a supermajority that would require substantial Democratic support in the Senate.
- freejazz 2y ago
  I'm not convinced it wont matter. And I don't agree with your reasoning why.
- kagakuninja 2y ago
  Elon / Trump will ignore court orders they don't like, they are basically doing that already. The only remedy will be impeachment. It is extremely unlikely that Republicans will remove Trump from office, and so the coup will continue.
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    > Elon / Trump will ignore court orders they don't like, they are basically doing that already. Yes, but weaken the appearance of legality may make it difficult for them to continue to secure compliance with their dictates. > The only remedy will be impeachment. The only remaining legal remedy will be impeachment, but as long as he can secure compliance, a conviction and order removing him by the Senate is no different than an order to stop a particular action from a court. However, eroding the cultural relevance of the principal of legality makes it increasingly likely that the there will be resort to extralegal (whether expressly illegal or in a deep grey zone law does not address because it is impossible for the situation it concerns to exist while the law is functioning in any meaningful way) remedies at some point.

keernan 2y ago

JD Vance has made clear they are following the pre-election script: The Judiciary does not have the constitutional authority to compel the Executive to do, or stop doing, anything. They are simply going to ignore SCOTUS and, since SCOTUS has zero enforcement mechanism, there is nothing SCOTUS can do about it. PS US Marshals are part of the Executive Branch.