5 ms·

Court Documents Shed New Light on DOGE Activity at Treasury Department

104 points by jbegley 2y ago

4ndrewl 2y ago
[flagged]
- josefresco 2y ago
  They seem quick today, I'll give this another 7 minutes.
- jc_811 2y ago
  Yeah kind of disappointed how every article around what’s going on in the current administration is getting flagged almost immediately. As long as the discussions remain civil and discuss these topics in a nuanced manner - they should not be getting flagged.
  - josefresco 2y ago
    I've remailed Dang twice now (and I suggest you do the same), it needs to be addressed. Maybe the flag tool removed or throttled for a period of time.
    - evilduck 2y ago
      OTOH, https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic. These are pretty off topic based on site guidelines. I don't personally need a HN rehash of AP News.
      - hooverd 2y ago
        I'd call this "interesting new phenomenon"
        evilduck 2y ago
        What's interesting or new about it? It's deeply concerning politically and as a US Citizen, but there's nothing happening that hasn't happened numerous times throughout history. There's nothing intellectually interesting or stimulating on these stories and there's dozens and dozens of other websites available to get into political debates if that's your motive.
        josefresco 2y ago
        > but there's nothing happening that hasn't happened numerous times throughout history I respectfully, and with great concern, disagree.
        snowwrestler 2y ago
        I would hope HN is one of the few places where people can set aside the political partisan wars and talk about the information security aspects of what the new administration is doing.
        keernan 2y ago
        The ABA, lawfare, and many trial attorneys have been sending 'red alerts' that there is mounting evidence this administration intends to demonstrate the fragility of our democracy by taking the position SCOTUS has no authority over the Executive. If that is not 'interesting or new', then we are already truly f*ked.
    - Mistletoe 2y ago
      It just needs to be removed forever. Upvotes and downvotes work just fine on Reddit and other sites. Flagging is used on HN as a censorship tool and I can’t imagine how the community allows it to continue. Flagging should be used for something like gore on the front page and it should be a report to mods button that when misused gets the user in hot water.
  - rpeden 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - andrewflnr 2y ago
      The top of most threads here are anti-Trump, as far as I've seen.
      - rpeden 2y ago
        Come to think of it, it's probably my fault for gravitating toward threads that are going to rile me up. It's been a weird few weeks in Canada - everyone has seemingly united around strong anti-US sentiment. That's true even in the staunchly conservative part of Ontario where I live that would normally be more sympathetic toward a Republican administration in the US. So there's probably some confirmation bias at play, too. I've been caught up in the whirlwind going on around me and maybe I've just been more likely to notice things that reinforce everything else I've been seeing. I actually appreciate fellow HN users giving me a polite reality check. I'll save the complaining for Reddit.
        andrewflnr 2y ago
        Well, anti-US sentiment isn't weird when the deranged president of your military superpower former ally to the south proposes invading you. Stay sane, if you can. Hug your cats. (:
    - Mistletoe 2y ago
      They all finally showed their true colors and what motivates them deep down- the ability to make even more money, humanity be damned.
      - rpeden 2y ago
        This reply is extra funny given my edited message. And it might still be true.
    - ToValueFunfetti 2y ago
- snowwrestler 2y ago
  I hope not because this is a detailed, well-reported article by an experienced journalist based on court documents provided under oath. And it clarifies some earlier sensational reporting. Edit to add: The author is Kim Zetter: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Zetter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Zetter
  - trothamel 2y ago
    I'd also say that there's a lot of technical detail in this, about how government systems work and what sort of access the doge-associated treasury employees have to them. That seems like the sort of news about this that HN should keep.
  - 38 2y ago
    https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Zetter https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Zetter
- tayo42 2y ago
  This will probably stay becasue it paints the Elon doge thing as at least neutral and the media in general as hysterical. If this is all true I don't get how these departments are being shut down then. Whole thing is messy
  - pauloday 2y ago
    Nope, took about an hour but it's flagged now. IMO the people doing the flagging just don't want anyone to think about this stuff at all.
TurkishPoptart 2y ago
GAO reported that there's over $200 B in fraudulent payments made a year, so it seems perfectly reasonable to let DOGE in and review that. It's new, it's messy, and unusual, but it's absolutely necessary.
- sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago
  The problem is that there are legal definitions for fraud, but Trump and Musk are very prone to calling any spending they don't personally agree with "fraud". The rule of law is important. This is not rule of law.
- cantSpellSober 2y ago
  It's more nuanced than "let DOGE in and review that" > Gioeli [told the court], however, that Elez may have "occasionally" taken screen shots of payment system data or records to share with a second DOGE employee working with him at Treasury
- snowwrestler 2y ago
  I think there may be a false dichotomy in some people’s minds between a new emphasis on detecting fraud, and existing emphasis on maintaining the security of sensitive data and mission-critical systems. This article shows at least some evidence that Treasury is actually trying to do both. And that existing security professionals have been involved in the process.
- mikecx 2y ago
  I don't question the need for an audit. I do question having a ketamine fueled oligarch and a rag-tag group of 20 year old software developers doing an audit, pretending audits take days, and somehow only finding things conservatives hate as waste/fraud.
  - alistairSH 2y ago
    But government agencies ARE audited! EDIT - since apparently HN doesn't believe me, auditing the executive branch is one of the primary functions of the GAO. This started in 1997. And while DoD's finances are still extremely problematic, the government overall has made massive strides in making itself auditable and accountable. And there are very low levels of actual fraud being found. While statements like the "DoD failed it's audit" are technically true, it's not because fraud was uncovered - instead it's because of decades of poor accountability, a problem the government has been actively working on correctling for nearly 20 years.
1970-01-01 2y ago
This reads as a list of security fundamentals, however it is a "never at all acceptable" list; A blueprint for generating resume generating events. Nobody in a controlled environment could justify giving same-day hire developers write access to prod. Any mature financial institution would have asses hitting doors before the end of the day.
EcommerceFlow 2y ago
DOGE has shown how screwed up the balance between the 3 branches has gotten. The executive should have the power to fire/remove executive associated departments/employees, obviously. The executive should not be able to authorize drone strikes/war without congressional hearings (which has been occurring for decades at this point) etc.
- alistairSH 2y ago
  That ignores the history of how the government came to be run by a class of largely apolitical, professional bureaucrats. The government used to turn over almost entirely with each administration. This wasn't good - the loss of institutional knowledge was largely thought to be harmful. So, the country decided to protect many of the bureaucrats, with only the top tier being political appointees.
  - diogocp 2y ago
    Well, the problem is that they are not "largely apolitical". They should be, but if they aren't, and if they are incapable of faithfully executing orders that go against their political preferences, they should be fired. The loss of institutional knowledge is unfortunate, but the loss of democratic control over the bureaucracy is unacceptable.
    - alistairSH 2y ago
      Except that's largely not true - government agencies always (with very rare exception) implement the will of Congress, as directed by the President. Never (in modern times) have rank-and-file government employees been required to pledge fealty to the president (vs the Constitution). That's happening now. Never (in modern times) has the President purged massive swaths of agencies with whom he's had run-ins in the past (DoJ, FBI, etc). Or, in the case of USAID, it's Musk taking revenge because they had the nerve to investigate Starling outages over Ukraine. Much of what we're seeing today is petty revenge.
      - 2y ago

104 points by jbegley 2y ago

4ndrewl 2y ago

[flagged]

josefresco 2y ago
They seem quick today, I'll give this another 7 minutes.
jc_811 2y ago
Yeah kind of disappointed how every article around what’s going on in the current administration is getting flagged almost immediately. As long as the discussions remain civil and discuss these topics in a nuanced manner - they should not be getting flagged.
- josefresco 2y ago
  I've remailed Dang twice now (and I suggest you do the same), it needs to be addressed. Maybe the flag tool removed or throttled for a period of time.
  - evilduck 2y ago
    OTOH, https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic. These are pretty off topic based on site guidelines. I don't personally need a HN rehash of AP News.
    - hooverd 2y ago
      I'd call this "interesting new phenomenon"
      - evilduck 2y ago
        What's interesting or new about it? It's deeply concerning politically and as a US Citizen, but there's nothing happening that hasn't happened numerous times throughout history. There's nothing intellectually interesting or stimulating on these stories and there's dozens and dozens of other websites available to get into political debates if that's your motive.
        josefresco 2y ago
        > but there's nothing happening that hasn't happened numerous times throughout history I respectfully, and with great concern, disagree.
        snowwrestler 2y ago
        I would hope HN is one of the few places where people can set aside the political partisan wars and talk about the information security aspects of what the new administration is doing.
        keernan 2y ago
        The ABA, lawfare, and many trial attorneys have been sending 'red alerts' that there is mounting evidence this administration intends to demonstrate the fragility of our democracy by taking the position SCOTUS has no authority over the Executive. If that is not 'interesting or new', then we are already truly f*ked.
  - Mistletoe 2y ago
    It just needs to be removed forever. Upvotes and downvotes work just fine on Reddit and other sites. Flagging is used on HN as a censorship tool and I can’t imagine how the community allows it to continue. Flagging should be used for something like gore on the front page and it should be a report to mods button that when misused gets the user in hot water.
- rpeden 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - andrewflnr 2y ago
    The top of most threads here are anti-Trump, as far as I've seen.
    - rpeden 2y ago
      Come to think of it, it's probably my fault for gravitating toward threads that are going to rile me up. It's been a weird few weeks in Canada - everyone has seemingly united around strong anti-US sentiment. That's true even in the staunchly conservative part of Ontario where I live that would normally be more sympathetic toward a Republican administration in the US. So there's probably some confirmation bias at play, too. I've been caught up in the whirlwind going on around me and maybe I've just been more likely to notice things that reinforce everything else I've been seeing. I actually appreciate fellow HN users giving me a polite reality check. I'll save the complaining for Reddit.
      - andrewflnr 2y ago
        Well, anti-US sentiment isn't weird when the deranged president of your military superpower former ally to the south proposes invading you. Stay sane, if you can. Hug your cats. (:
  - Mistletoe 2y ago
    They all finally showed their true colors and what motivates them deep down- the ability to make even more money, humanity be damned.
    - rpeden 2y ago
      This reply is extra funny given my edited message. And it might still be true.
  - ToValueFunfetti 2y ago
snowwrestler 2y ago
I hope not because this is a detailed, well-reported article by an experienced journalist based on court documents provided under oath. And it clarifies some earlier sensational reporting. Edit to add: The author is Kim Zetter: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Zetter https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Zetter
- trothamel 2y ago
  I'd also say that there's a lot of technical detail in this, about how government systems work and what sort of access the doge-associated treasury employees have to them. That seems like the sort of news about this that HN should keep.
- 38 2y ago
  https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Zetter https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Zetter
tayo42 2y ago
This will probably stay becasue it paints the Elon doge thing as at least neutral and the media in general as hysterical. If this is all true I don't get how these departments are being shut down then. Whole thing is messy
- pauloday 2y ago
  Nope, took about an hour but it's flagged now. IMO the people doing the flagging just don't want anyone to think about this stuff at all.

TurkishPoptart 2y ago

GAO reported that there's over $200 B in fraudulent payments made a year, so it seems perfectly reasonable to let DOGE in and review that. It's new, it's messy, and unusual, but it's absolutely necessary.

sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago
The problem is that there are legal definitions for fraud, but Trump and Musk are very prone to calling any spending they don't personally agree with "fraud". The rule of law is important. This is not rule of law.
cantSpellSober 2y ago
It's more nuanced than "let DOGE in and review that" > Gioeli [told the court], however, that Elez may have "occasionally" taken screen shots of payment system data or records to share with a second DOGE employee working with him at Treasury
snowwrestler 2y ago
I think there may be a false dichotomy in some people’s minds between a new emphasis on detecting fraud, and existing emphasis on maintaining the security of sensitive data and mission-critical systems. This article shows at least some evidence that Treasury is actually trying to do both. And that existing security professionals have been involved in the process.
mikecx 2y ago
I don't question the need for an audit. I do question having a ketamine fueled oligarch and a rag-tag group of 20 year old software developers doing an audit, pretending audits take days, and somehow only finding things conservatives hate as waste/fraud.
- alistairSH 2y ago
  But government agencies ARE audited! EDIT - since apparently HN doesn't believe me, auditing the executive branch is one of the primary functions of the GAO. This started in 1997. And while DoD's finances are still extremely problematic, the government overall has made massive strides in making itself auditable and accountable. And there are very low levels of actual fraud being found. While statements like the "DoD failed it's audit" are technically true, it's not because fraud was uncovered - instead it's because of decades of poor accountability, a problem the government has been actively working on correctling for nearly 20 years.

1970-01-01 2y ago

This reads as a list of security fundamentals, however it is a "never at all acceptable" list; A blueprint for generating resume generating events. Nobody in a controlled environment could justify giving same-day hire developers write access to prod. Any mature financial institution would have asses hitting doors before the end of the day.

EcommerceFlow 2y ago

DOGE has shown how screwed up the balance between the 3 branches has gotten. The executive should have the power to fire/remove executive associated departments/employees, obviously. The executive should not be able to authorize drone strikes/war without congressional hearings (which has been occurring for decades at this point) etc.

alistairSH 2y ago
That ignores the history of how the government came to be run by a class of largely apolitical, professional bureaucrats. The government used to turn over almost entirely with each administration. This wasn't good - the loss of institutional knowledge was largely thought to be harmful. So, the country decided to protect many of the bureaucrats, with only the top tier being political appointees.
- diogocp 2y ago
  Well, the problem is that they are not "largely apolitical". They should be, but if they aren't, and if they are incapable of faithfully executing orders that go against their political preferences, they should be fired. The loss of institutional knowledge is unfortunate, but the loss of democratic control over the bureaucracy is unacceptable.
  - alistairSH 2y ago
    Except that's largely not true - government agencies always (with very rare exception) implement the will of Congress, as directed by the President. Never (in modern times) have rank-and-file government employees been required to pledge fealty to the president (vs the Constitution). That's happening now. Never (in modern times) has the President purged massive swaths of agencies with whom he's had run-ins in the past (DoJ, FBI, etc). Or, in the case of USAID, it's Musk taking revenge because they had the nerve to investigate Starling outages over Ukraine. Much of what we're seeing today is petty revenge.
    - 2y ago