10 ms·

You Don't Need a Terminal Multiplexer on Your Desktop

40 points by matrixhelix 2y ago

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
simpaticoder 2y ago
Another great example of the eternal question, where the indirection go? Note that when browser tabs were invented this same debate happened.
- verdverm 2y ago
  Now I have terminal tabs in my IDE and can mix and split with code in all sorts of ways
- choobacker 2y ago
  +1. I think that about summarises it. Window managers can plausibly already do a lot of what other software can do, yet in practice, popular workflows tend to assume very little from the window manager. I try to avoid terminal multiplexers in favour of Sway/Emacs/dtach/SSH multiplexing, but I still often reach for tmux.
mm263 2y ago
I mean, if I'm having fun and I'm productive, why do I have to justify my setup? But if I would, I'd say that VSCode didn't support all of the Vim functionality, so I started using NeoVim and to avoid managing multiple terminal windows I use tmux.
- cf100clunk 2y ago
  >why do I have to justify my setup? Precisely. I just wasted all that time to read through that long opinion piece, only to shrug and think "to each their own."
- fambalamboni 2y ago
  [dead]
fambalamboni 2y ago
I use screen all the time in an SSH session. Locally, not so much. Although if I'm running something that I know will take hours, I tend to run that in Screen because I'm likely to nuke the terminal by accident.
- ykonstant 2y ago
  "Nuking the terminal by accident" is a serious thing for me; I do it all the time, though usually it is not a big deal. I have way too many terminal windows open because I do all sorts of chaotic nonsense and my "open terminal" shortcut is too convenient. What I really need, however, is a simple shortcut that yanks the terminal window from wherever it is, puts it in the current workspace and focuses on it. I keep postponing making it, it should be simple with xorg tools (can you do that in Wayland?).
  - rpdillon 2y ago
    I use Guake for this. I have it configured to fire up Tmux and then I have it bound to Ctrl Alt T, and it drops down a terminal anywhere I am: any desktop, any screen. I didn't read the entire article (I don't think it's particularly well-written or stems from any particular expertise in the domain), but I doubt the author addresses the huge advantage I see with terminal multiplexers, which is it allows me to cut and paste from the terminal without using a mouse, and allows me to log scroll back and capture sessions effectively in any terminal emulator I use, not just a fancy one like iTerm2.
  - komboozcha 2y ago
    This sounds like a great use case for tmux. Have one (1) terminal open, and as many panes/tabs/whatever as you need.
explorigin 2y ago
Came here for `nohup`. Learned about `disown` and `reptyr`. Nah, I'll just use `screen`.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
bee_rider 2y ago
The argument here seems to be: “the features you like about terminal multiplexers should be built into your terminal emulator, or your window manager, or I don’t see why they are really necessary.” Plus some complaints about influencers. Sure, I’ll just replace my perfectly functional window manager so I can avoid using a terminal multiplexer. Except I’ll still want a terminal multiplexer on servers, so I still need to be familiar with the way the tool works and I’ll still be happier if I have a nice config (sidenote: the article complains about needing very complicated configurations, but tmux is fine with like… 10 lines of configuration? You can solve the problem of over complicated configs by just not doing them). Overall it kind of feels like hipsterism or engagement bait. Complaining about “content creators” is a very popular way to show off your bona fides nowadays. I guess this is just going back and forth on “no, you are the influencer/engagement fisher” but I think tons of people have been using terminal multiplexers for decades because they are boring and practical. If someone made a YouTube or a TikTok about them, I guess… I dunno, let the kids have nice things too, <shrug>.
- floren 2y ago
  > Except I’ll still want a terminal multiplexer on servers Biggest reason not to use a terminal multiplexer locally, imo: There is nothing worse than hitting Ctrl-b twice for every action when you're also using the muxer remotely.
  - freedomben 2y ago
    I just have Ctrl-a set as the primary, and on remote boxes (where I run a tmux which ends up running inside a pane in my local tmux) I use Ctrl-b. Took about 20 minutes to get the muscle memory to adjust for it and now 15 years later I'm still very happy with it.
  - komboozcha 2y ago
    You can remap the prefix key...
    - Ethee 2y ago
schaefer 2y ago
From TFA: My impression is that the sole purpose of the terminal multiplexer hype train stems from a perceived sense of pseudo-elitism… —- Whoa there buddy. It’s fine to say: “I tried a thing, and it just wasn’t for me”. But to proceed from that point and onto: “so rather just letting things be, or making a good-faith effort to understand those with differing opinions, I’m going to project and harshly judge them” is such a downer. I guess what I’m trying to say is, I tried reading this blog and it just wasn’t for me.
- mvdtnz 2y ago
  He's right though. Same for people who use TUI editors. Let's just call a spade a spade.
  - komboozcha 2y ago
    Heh. I still remember when we made fun of people for not being able to hack it on the terminal (and we were all still using screen back then to be productive). Tech is such an irrational pop culture. Nobody has respect for history, and anything old is automatically labeled elitist. Where did we go wrong?
  - rpdillon 2y ago
    He's not right. There's a whole host of features and functionality that terminal multiplexers bring to the table that he doesn't even begin to address. For such a long article it's actually quite shallow.
- komboozcha 2y ago
  Lmao yeah, a hype train that began in checks notes 1987 when screen was released. These children have zero knowledge of history or the craft itself, and I wish we could take away their computers.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
hyperman1 2y ago
I started to use tmux on remote machines to stop them disconnecting me when the network changes or the laptop sleeps. (Damn you systemd for breaking that, too) Then I started multiple tmux panes remotely because it was great for dumping the long process monitoring next to the long process Then I started using tmux panes remotely for task switching. Then I started using tmux locally because I already knew all the keybindings and tricks. And there are still multiple browsers, IDEs and whatnots in other windows. At no point, the points the article touches had any relevancy. It just grew on me. So you all do whatever floats your boat, and I'll continue doung mine.
- freedomben 2y ago
  Just a side note, I think mosh is a much better tool for stopping the disconnections from network changes or laptop sleeps. It uses UDP under the hood instead of TCP so it seamlessly supports roaming (changing of IP addresses). Also brings some great performance improvements as well, especially when the remote process is dumping lots of text to standard out
  - dingaling 2y ago
    After a while though, particularly on flakey connections, I end up with dozens of stale mosh sessions on each server, all listening for inbound connections that will never come. The quickest way to clear them seems to be pkill mosh and then reconnect. It's a known bug with no anticipated fix.
  - mmh0000 2y ago
    Yes, mosh is great. Except, neither RHEL nor SLES include it in the base repo. This means getting it approved and installed on servers in most enterprises is never ever going to happen. Thus, mosh is dead to me (a poor sysadmin who lives under constant fear of The Security Team).
    - freedomben 2y ago
      Good point. It also requires opening some UDP ports, which many security teams balk at. Real shame though because it makes life a lot better.
komboozcha 2y ago
I do, because I'm a professional who needs to get work done, instead of dicking around in React all day and writing edgelord blog posts about 40-year-old tools.
Mar0 2y ago
Feels like it's totally missing the point of why tmux is used on desktop and in a very arrogant tone. Windows manager saves layouts. I want to save both layout and states. I want to be able to quickly switch from one project workspace to another, without having to use ctrl+z and fg or creating term windows everytime. Also, a lot of people use one workspace for one app on their WM (1 for terminal, 1 for browser, etc...) I like that my terminal has its own workspace, so I don't have to pollute the workspaces of my WM with tons of different terminal windows. Maybe spend more time understanding the problem that is trying to be solved before writing a long ass arrogant article?
tolerance 2y ago
This is a great example of engaging writing that fails to convey an appreciable message and even though I use tmux locally and I had a thought the other day that I should stop, I hope that the author can channel their energy toward a better formula for thoughts.
dpc_01234 2y ago
Arrogant and pointless? You want to use a GUI, go for it. To me, just because most of my workflow doesn't need to change irrespective if I'm working locally or via ssh, is already making terminal multiplexer a win. Also, there's something to be said about terminal just being a more productive way to work with computers. The constrains that a terminal puts on software used in it, make the individual pieces compose with each other way better, precisely because text composes better than graphic interfaces. (That's why "visual programming" will always suck.) My workflow for decades now is entirely terminal with terminal multiplexer and a browser window. The graphical interface works better for exploratory work when I'm mostly navigating and consuming information, like clicking around the web, the textual interface works better for actual precise control and interaction with software. The "GUI" for me is just for changing if my browser/terminal are displayed side by side or maximized and switching between them.
kristianp 2y ago
I tend to agree with this guy. I like using multiple windows or tabs in konsole and dont use tmux etc. If you're spending time sshing into remote machines tmux etc is the way to go. Although when I remote in I still don't use tmux or screen in general. I prefer using nohup for long running processes or even just keep the laptop from sleeping by plugging it in.

40 points by matrixhelix 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Another great example of the eternal question, where the indirection go? Note that when browser tabs were invented this same debate happened.

verdverm 2y ago
Now I have terminal tabs in my IDE and can mix and split with code in all sorts of ways
choobacker 2y ago
+1. I think that about summarises it. Window managers can plausibly already do a lot of what other software can do, yet in practice, popular workflows tend to assume very little from the window manager. I try to avoid terminal multiplexers in favour of Sway/Emacs/dtach/SSH multiplexing, but I still often reach for tmux.

mm263 2y ago

I mean, if I'm having fun and I'm productive, why do I have to justify my setup? But if I would, I'd say that VSCode didn't support all of the Vim functionality, so I started using NeoVim and to avoid managing multiple terminal windows I use tmux.

cf100clunk 2y ago
>why do I have to justify my setup? Precisely. I just wasted all that time to read through that long opinion piece, only to shrug and think "to each their own."
fambalamboni 2y ago
[dead]

fambalamboni 2y ago

I use screen all the time in an SSH session. Locally, not so much. Although if I'm running something that I know will take hours, I tend to run that in Screen because I'm likely to nuke the terminal by accident.

ykonstant 2y ago
"Nuking the terminal by accident" is a serious thing for me; I do it all the time, though usually it is not a big deal. I have way too many terminal windows open because I do all sorts of chaotic nonsense and my "open terminal" shortcut is too convenient. What I really need, however, is a simple shortcut that yanks the terminal window from wherever it is, puts it in the current workspace and focuses on it. I keep postponing making it, it should be simple with xorg tools (can you do that in Wayland?).
- rpdillon 2y ago
  I use Guake for this. I have it configured to fire up Tmux and then I have it bound to Ctrl Alt T, and it drops down a terminal anywhere I am: any desktop, any screen. I didn't read the entire article (I don't think it's particularly well-written or stems from any particular expertise in the domain), but I doubt the author addresses the huge advantage I see with terminal multiplexers, which is it allows me to cut and paste from the terminal without using a mouse, and allows me to log scroll back and capture sessions effectively in any terminal emulator I use, not just a fancy one like iTerm2.
- komboozcha 2y ago
  This sounds like a great use case for tmux. Have one (1) terminal open, and as many panes/tabs/whatever as you need.

explorigin 2y ago

Came here for `nohup`. Learned about `disown` and `reptyr`. Nah, I'll just use `screen`.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

bee_rider 2y ago

The argument here seems to be: “the features you like about terminal multiplexers should be built into your terminal emulator, or your window manager, or I don’t see why they are really necessary.” Plus some complaints about influencers. Sure, I’ll just replace my perfectly functional window manager so I can avoid using a terminal multiplexer. Except I’ll still want a terminal multiplexer on servers, so I still need to be familiar with the way the tool works and I’ll still be happier if I have a nice config (sidenote: the article complains about needing very complicated configurations, but tmux is fine with like… 10 lines of configuration? You can solve the problem of over complicated configs by just not doing them). Overall it kind of feels like hipsterism or engagement bait. Complaining about “content creators” is a very popular way to show off your bona fides nowadays. I guess this is just going back and forth on “no, you are the influencer/engagement fisher” but I think tons of people have been using terminal multiplexers for decades because they are boring and practical. If someone made a YouTube or a TikTok about them, I guess… I dunno, let the kids have nice things too, <shrug>.

floren 2y ago
> Except I’ll still want a terminal multiplexer on servers Biggest reason not to use a terminal multiplexer locally, imo: There is nothing worse than hitting Ctrl-b twice for every action when you're also using the muxer remotely.
- freedomben 2y ago
  I just have Ctrl-a set as the primary, and on remote boxes (where I run a tmux which ends up running inside a pane in my local tmux) I use Ctrl-b. Took about 20 minutes to get the muscle memory to adjust for it and now 15 years later I'm still very happy with it.
- komboozcha 2y ago
  You can remap the prefix key...
  - Ethee 2y ago

schaefer 2y ago

From TFA: My impression is that the sole purpose of the terminal multiplexer hype train stems from a perceived sense of pseudo-elitism… —- Whoa there buddy. It’s fine to say: “I tried a thing, and it just wasn’t for me”. But to proceed from that point and onto: “so rather just letting things be, or making a good-faith effort to understand those with differing opinions, I’m going to project and harshly judge them” is such a downer. I guess what I’m trying to say is, I tried reading this blog and it just wasn’t for me.

mvdtnz 2y ago
He's right though. Same for people who use TUI editors. Let's just call a spade a spade.
- komboozcha 2y ago
  Heh. I still remember when we made fun of people for not being able to hack it on the terminal (and we were all still using screen back then to be productive). Tech is such an irrational pop culture. Nobody has respect for history, and anything old is automatically labeled elitist. Where did we go wrong?
- rpdillon 2y ago
  He's not right. There's a whole host of features and functionality that terminal multiplexers bring to the table that he doesn't even begin to address. For such a long article it's actually quite shallow.
komboozcha 2y ago
Lmao yeah, a hype train that began in checks notes 1987 when screen was released. These children have zero knowledge of history or the craft itself, and I wish we could take away their computers.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

hyperman1 2y ago

I started to use tmux on remote machines to stop them disconnecting me when the network changes or the laptop sleeps. (Damn you systemd for breaking that, too) Then I started multiple tmux panes remotely because it was great for dumping the long process monitoring next to the long process Then I started using tmux panes remotely for task switching. Then I started using tmux locally because I already knew all the keybindings and tricks. And there are still multiple browsers, IDEs and whatnots in other windows. At no point, the points the article touches had any relevancy. It just grew on me. So you all do whatever floats your boat, and I'll continue doung mine.

freedomben 2y ago
Just a side note, I think mosh is a much better tool for stopping the disconnections from network changes or laptop sleeps. It uses UDP under the hood instead of TCP so it seamlessly supports roaming (changing of IP addresses). Also brings some great performance improvements as well, especially when the remote process is dumping lots of text to standard out
- dingaling 2y ago
  After a while though, particularly on flakey connections, I end up with dozens of stale mosh sessions on each server, all listening for inbound connections that will never come. The quickest way to clear them seems to be pkill mosh and then reconnect. It's a known bug with no anticipated fix.
- mmh0000 2y ago
  Yes, mosh is great. Except, neither RHEL nor SLES include it in the base repo. This means getting it approved and installed on servers in most enterprises is never ever going to happen. Thus, mosh is dead to me (a poor sysadmin who lives under constant fear of The Security Team).
  - freedomben 2y ago
    Good point. It also requires opening some UDP ports, which many security teams balk at. Real shame though because it makes life a lot better.

komboozcha 2y ago

I do, because I'm a professional who needs to get work done, instead of dicking around in React all day and writing edgelord blog posts about 40-year-old tools.

Mar0 2y ago

Feels like it's totally missing the point of why tmux is used on desktop and in a very arrogant tone. Windows manager saves layouts. I want to save both layout and states. I want to be able to quickly switch from one project workspace to another, without having to use ctrl+z and fg or creating term windows everytime. Also, a lot of people use one workspace for one app on their WM (1 for terminal, 1 for browser, etc...) I like that my terminal has its own workspace, so I don't have to pollute the workspaces of my WM with tons of different terminal windows. Maybe spend more time understanding the problem that is trying to be solved before writing a long ass arrogant article?

tolerance 2y ago

This is a great example of engaging writing that fails to convey an appreciable message and even though I use tmux locally and I had a thought the other day that I should stop, I hope that the author can channel their energy toward a better formula for thoughts.

dpc_01234 2y ago

Arrogant and pointless? You want to use a GUI, go for it. To me, just because most of my workflow doesn't need to change irrespective if I'm working locally or via ssh, is already making terminal multiplexer a win. Also, there's something to be said about terminal just being a more productive way to work with computers. The constrains that a terminal puts on software used in it, make the individual pieces compose with each other way better, precisely because text composes better than graphic interfaces. (That's why "visual programming" will always suck.) My workflow for decades now is entirely terminal with terminal multiplexer and a browser window. The graphical interface works better for exploratory work when I'm mostly navigating and consuming information, like clicking around the web, the textual interface works better for actual precise control and interaction with software. The "GUI" for me is just for changing if my browser/terminal are displayed side by side or maximized and switching between them.

kristianp 2y ago

I tend to agree with this guy. I like using multiple windows or tabs in konsole and dont use tmux etc. If you're spending time sshing into remote machines tmux etc is the way to go. Although when I remote in I still don't use tmux or screen in general. I prefer using nohup for long running processes or even just keep the laptop from sleeping by plugging it in.