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> Just because someone wants to immigrate to the US doesn't mean they should be allowed. This is the underlying truth that is indisputable. Why? Why is it indi

> Just because someone wants to immigrate to the US doesn't mean they should be allowed. This is the underlying truth that is indisputable. Why? Why is it indisputable? America existed very prosperously for over 200 years with such a system - the only thing we did was weed out smuggling and criminals.

blindriver 2y ago
That was then, this is now. A country is allowed to enforce its borders and protect its citizens from an uncontrolled influx of foreigners.
- drekk 2y ago
  You didn't provide any analysis into why things are different now, and offered up a truism. A country is "allowed" to do anything it can get away with. Like declaring war on all of its neighbors. I don't feel like I need to be protected from foreigners. Why do you?
- eesmith 2y ago
  There are alternatives. The US existed very prosperously without the current system of asylum requests, immigration judges, Green Cards or Visas, while also enforcing its borders and protecting its citizens from an uncontrolled influx of foreigners. About 2% of the millions who arrived at Ellis Island were turned back. Norway does not require a visa or residency permit for foreigners to live on Svalbard. "Regardless of citizenship, persons can live and work in Svalbard indefinitely." (Wikipedia.) That said, there are "Regulations relating to rejection and expulsion of persons from Svalbard". They are applied equally to all citizens. And yes, it is possible for a foreigner to live in Svalbard, without need for a permit, and gain Norwegian citizenship.
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    Svalbard’s visa free status is by treaty (mostly with Russia), it is not something that Norway came up with on its own. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard_Treaty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard_Treaty
    - eesmith 2y ago
      And your point is ... what? That it's not possible for the US to come up with something like that on its own?
      - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
        I don't think any one country would do this on their own, but a contested region that caused people to cooperate surely would. Like if Antarctica was turned into an international region, a bunch of countries would make it visa free as a matter of treaty.
        eesmith 2y ago
        Okay, but the thesis is: "Just because someone wants to immigrate to the US doesn't mean they should be allowed. This is the underlying truth that is indisputable." There is part of Norway where anyone is allowed to immigrate to, so long as they follow the same rules which equally apply to Norwegian citizens. That one counter-example would seem to put the thesis into dispute. The appeal to 'uncontrolled influx of foreigners' is just strawman xenophobia, since even in the 19-oughts when immigration was one percent of the US population every year, there were still controls, and not everyone was accepted.
        seanmcdirmid 2y ago
        > There is part of Norway where anyone is allowed to immigrate to, so long as they follow the same rules which equally apply to Norwegian citizens. But it isn't really a part of Norway, or wouldn't be a part of Norway if Norway didn't give into Russian demands after WW2 (Russia had a claim on it as well, and it could have gone their way instead). That is a fluke, it isn't something Norway exactly wanted, but it was something they were willing to accept. You still need a Schengen visa to get there (since you have to transit through Norway proper, Russia doesn't do flights there anymore). They will immediately kick you out if you don't have means to stay (regardless of nationality), so the whole influx of foreigners moving into Svalbard to squat w/o a job is simply not allowed (since you need money for a hotel or apartment or you'll freeze to death/get eaten by polar bears...and there are only a limited number of those available). > The appeal to 'uncontrolled influx of foreigners' is just strawman xenophobia While it may still be a strawman, Svalbard doesn't really provide for an effective counter-example as evidence.
milesrout 2y ago
>America existed very prosperously for over 200 years with such a system The difference is visible in maps of "foreign country where most non-native residents come from" across the US. Before the 1970s, this was very diverse. People came to the US from all over. They came, learnt English, and became Americans. In the decades since, the map has become a single colour in every state from North to South because the overwhelming majority of immigrants are illegal immigrants from a single pretty impoverished country. They move to the US, do not integrate, don't learn English, and don't become Americans. And guess what? People don't like it.
- jmpman 2y ago
  Are you talking about Mexicans? I live in Arizona, which has been a recipient of Mexican immigration at scale for longer than most other states. The Mexican immigrants do integrate, they do learn English, and within a couple generations they’re very much Americans. Sure, first generation commonly struggle with learning the language. Second generation have gone through our school system and speak perfect English. My third generational Mexican friends/family are very much Americans.
  - RajT88 2y ago
    I live in Illinois, where some towns I have lived in had a 49% Latino population. Most people learned English. Most before they came here. People who cannot speak it are rare and are disadvantaged by that fact. But also - the US has no official language specifically because the founders did not know which language would become predominant! English, Spanish, French and German were the major candidates and we still have French, Spanish and German speaking communities of native born citizens whose families have been here hundreds of years.

blindriver 2y ago

That was then, this is now. A country is allowed to enforce its borders and protect its citizens from an uncontrolled influx of foreigners.

drekk 2y ago
You didn't provide any analysis into why things are different now, and offered up a truism. A country is "allowed" to do anything it can get away with. Like declaring war on all of its neighbors. I don't feel like I need to be protected from foreigners. Why do you?
eesmith 2y ago
There are alternatives. The US existed very prosperously without the current system of asylum requests, immigration judges, Green Cards or Visas, while also enforcing its borders and protecting its citizens from an uncontrolled influx of foreigners. About 2% of the millions who arrived at Ellis Island were turned back. Norway does not require a visa or residency permit for foreigners to live on Svalbard. "Regardless of citizenship, persons can live and work in Svalbard indefinitely." (Wikipedia.) That said, there are "Regulations relating to rejection and expulsion of persons from Svalbard". They are applied equally to all citizens. And yes, it is possible for a foreigner to live in Svalbard, without need for a permit, and gain Norwegian citizenship.
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  Svalbard’s visa free status is by treaty (mostly with Russia), it is not something that Norway came up with on its own. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard_Treaty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard_Treaty
  - eesmith 2y ago
    And your point is ... what? That it's not possible for the US to come up with something like that on its own?
    - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
      I don't think any one country would do this on their own, but a contested region that caused people to cooperate surely would. Like if Antarctica was turned into an international region, a bunch of countries would make it visa free as a matter of treaty.
      - eesmith 2y ago
        Okay, but the thesis is: "Just because someone wants to immigrate to the US doesn't mean they should be allowed. This is the underlying truth that is indisputable." There is part of Norway where anyone is allowed to immigrate to, so long as they follow the same rules which equally apply to Norwegian citizens. That one counter-example would seem to put the thesis into dispute. The appeal to 'uncontrolled influx of foreigners' is just strawman xenophobia, since even in the 19-oughts when immigration was one percent of the US population every year, there were still controls, and not everyone was accepted.
        seanmcdirmid 2y ago
        > There is part of Norway where anyone is allowed to immigrate to, so long as they follow the same rules which equally apply to Norwegian citizens. But it isn't really a part of Norway, or wouldn't be a part of Norway if Norway didn't give into Russian demands after WW2 (Russia had a claim on it as well, and it could have gone their way instead). That is a fluke, it isn't something Norway exactly wanted, but it was something they were willing to accept. You still need a Schengen visa to get there (since you have to transit through Norway proper, Russia doesn't do flights there anymore). They will immediately kick you out if you don't have means to stay (regardless of nationality), so the whole influx of foreigners moving into Svalbard to squat w/o a job is simply not allowed (since you need money for a hotel or apartment or you'll freeze to death/get eaten by polar bears...and there are only a limited number of those available). > The appeal to 'uncontrolled influx of foreigners' is just strawman xenophobia While it may still be a strawman, Svalbard doesn't really provide for an effective counter-example as evidence.

milesrout 2y ago

>America existed very prosperously for over 200 years with such a system The difference is visible in maps of "foreign country where most non-native residents come from" across the US. Before the 1970s, this was very diverse. People came to the US from all over. They came, learnt English, and became Americans. In the decades since, the map has become a single colour in every state from North to South because the overwhelming majority of immigrants are illegal immigrants from a single pretty impoverished country. They move to the US, do not integrate, don't learn English, and don't become Americans. And guess what? People don't like it.

jmpman 2y ago
Are you talking about Mexicans? I live in Arizona, which has been a recipient of Mexican immigration at scale for longer than most other states. The Mexican immigrants do integrate, they do learn English, and within a couple generations they’re very much Americans. Sure, first generation commonly struggle with learning the language. Second generation have gone through our school system and speak perfect English. My third generational Mexican friends/family are very much Americans.
- RajT88 2y ago
  I live in Illinois, where some towns I have lived in had a 49% Latino population. Most people learned English. Most before they came here. People who cannot speak it are rare and are disadvantaged by that fact. But also - the US has no official language specifically because the founders did not know which language would become predominant! English, Spanish, French and German were the major candidates and we still have French, Spanish and German speaking communities of native born citizens whose families have been here hundreds of years.