5 ms·
Tesla would be fucked without tariffs.
by Despegar 2y ago
Tesla would be fucked without tariffs.
- werdnapk 2y agoIt's more the sanctions than the tariffs.
- xp84 2y agoWould you want for all cars to be made in China, the way all computers and smartphones are? I can't imagine any other outcome.
- Despegar 2y agoYeah I don't care
- loloquwowndueo 2y agoThat’s how the free market works, right?
- sergiotapia 2y agohas to be both ways for that to work. china can't just do whatever and tariff american companies to hell, right?
- slt2021 2y agoTesla shanghai exists GM also has factories in China tariff concerns should be discussed via WTO, not unilateral sanctions. otherwise all this "rules based order" is not worth paper it is written on
- SauciestGNU 2y agoThe "rules based order" is just an American invention to give our government something to talk about besides international law, which the US has basically always ignored.
- slt2021 2y agono, you cannot enforce rules based order on the whole world when it suits you (to force everyone use USD for reserves and global trade, allowing USA to borrow unlimited money for free and export inflation to entire world), but the moment it doesnt suit you - just abandon it. why would anyone trust usa's word if any agreement/word/promise can be torn unilaterally?
- macintux 2y ago> why would anyone trust usa's word if any agreement/word/promise can be torn unilaterally? I suspect we're going to see the answer to that question play out over the next several years.
- SauciestGNU 2y agoI agree with you, I'm trying to add color to the situation by pointing out that America has benefited from this invention stemming from the conditions of pax americana where the alternative is international law via the UN and ICC and other institutions that are perhaps more independent than the US would like.
- rsynnott 2y ago> china can't just do whatever and tariff american companies to hell, right? In general, the US would introduce retaliatory tariffs in that scenario; the game theory of the situation basically requires that. Despite popular belief, the CCP is also not actually completely immune to public discontent (it often seems to be really quite scared of it), and would likely be willing to kick off a major trade war, as it would cause price increases.
- Dig1t 2y agoYes it certainly is. You can see the effects of the free market in many industries which have been decimated by globalization. We used to be able to get a manufacturing job which would provide for a family, but decided it was okay to allow big corps to use slave labor on the other side of the planet and just ship everything across the world (not great for carbon emissions). Just look at the rust belt. It’s not a bad idea to say that we should have the free market stop at our border. Other countries don’t play by the same rules that we do and can even have entire industries propped up by a foreign government in order to take up market share.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- conception 2y agoWe are the richest nation on the planet. The reason the rust belt exists is because we decided it was better to have the most billionaires than to invest and care for our people. It’s entirely possible to help raise other countries out of poverty, which globalism has, and take care of your people. We just didn’t.
- Dig1t 2y agoI'm not sure what you mean by "care for our own people". I would say that providing an abundance of meaningful work that can feed a family is one of the best ways we can care for our own people. We have unions and high wages, and having good paying jobs for people who don't want to or can't afford to attend University means that people from all walks of life can have some prosperity. Removing industry from an area brings nothing but misery to the people who live there. Are you suggesting that some sort of communism should have been implemented in the rust belt where we give these people free money or something? The Chinese market is way larger than the US one, they have everything they need to lift themselves out of poverty by building things for themselves. The US became the richest country in the world by building everything here and reaping the rewards with greatly increased prosperity. There is no reason to send all our good paying jobs to the other side of the world, and ship all goods across literally the entire planet, the process of which emits and insane amount of C02, just so that the owners of mega corporations can make a few extra dollars per unit.
- j7ake 2y agoCompanies shouldn’t be taking handouts from the US government. Let capitalism dictate where the cars get made. It is the American way.
- porphyra 2y agoI don't mind having all my computers and smartphones made in China. And I didn't mind when both cars and electronics were made in Japan.
- kevin_thibedeau 2y agoJapan hit its peak before surveillance capitalism became pervasive. They also categorically fail at developing complex software. The Chinese won't make that mistake.
- sockaddr 2y agoYou consider technological/economic dominance by Japan or China to be equivalent threat classes?
- KerrAvon 2y agoWhat's your alternative to dominance by China? Dominance by Elon Musk? American industry has been fucking the dog since the 1980's. This is what we deserve.
- xp84 2y ago> This is what we deserve. This attitude is why Trump won. A statement like that sounds like you've stopped trying to make anything better, or to articulate a competing plan and convince voters to support it. So, in this way, the self-loathing defeatism is partly responsible for people like Trump gaining more power.
- rangestransform 2y agoThis is what the UAW deserves anyways for throwing around their weight to keep the US in the dark ages of EVs
- xp84 2y agoIs it the UAW who has forced the automakers to make primarily those high-profit trucks, and to only design terrible EVs? In my opinion the reason why we're in the dark ages of EVs is that a majority of Americans have range anxiety so our EVs have to weigh a lot and cost a lot to have 250 mile batteries, whereas everywhere else you can buy a car with an 80 mile range for a price poor people can actually afford. Note - the range anxiety is both because of our car-centric (sub)urban design encouraging lifestyles where you drive 100 miles a day, and because of how a large number of urban dwellers and even suburban non-rich have no garages to do home charging. (And it's objectively far worse to own an EV for anyone who can't charge it at home.) All of this causes people to refuse to buy cars with say, 75-100 miles of range unless they're hybrids.
- almostgotcaught 2y agoit's amazing to me when people on hn (supposed champions of meritocracy and innovation and free markets etc) are so scared of actual free trade. like what are you scared of? equilibration in wages? the only reason to be scared of that is because you're afraid of your purchasing power going down but that means of course your current purchasing power comes at the expense of someone else's. and if you don't buy that argument - "it's not a zero-sum game you communist!" - then you have nothing to be scared of (because your purchasing power will remain high) and you should support truly free trade.
- joyeuse6701 2y agoI think it’s obvious that free trade is good when it’s just a matter of competition between private citizens. It is clearly problematic when it is weaponized to destroy a nation-state’s industrial output surreptitiously.
- almostgotcaught 2y ago> it is weaponized to destroy a nation-state’s industrial output surreptitiously are we talking about the US or China or Canda or Mexico here? i can't keep track of who the "bad guys" are that are supposedly weaponizing and who the victims are.
- c0nducktr 2y agoWho destroyed a nation-states industrial output?
- nimos 2y agoInstead lets have them made in a place that has threatened to take over ~4 sovereign nations in the past three weeks? Yeah I'll take the 1/2 price cars thanks.
- xp84 2y agoCan you in any way separate in your mind the idea of the USA as a nation of 300,000,000 people, who need jobs and who all benefit from having safe and good quality cars, from the trolling actions of a few politicians? With statements like yours, it feels like the left is rooting for the most catastrophic outcomes possible for that whole country, just to spite Trump. Even though we'd all lose and Trump wouldn't be affected either way.
- nimos 2y agoWell there are another 7.6 billion people on this planet many of whom are already feeling the consequences of the "trolling actions of a few politicians". I'm not American or a "leftist" for reference. I have no ill will towards the American people, neither the Chinese or any other. Governments on the other hand.... But regardless if I can buy a car for 1/2 the cost from one belligerent major power over another. Yeah - I'll take the half price car.
- xp84 2y agoPardon my assumption -- if you're not in America, America's tariffs on their imports don't impact availability of cheap Chinese cars (should you want to trust them).
- seanmcdirmid 2y agoYou are assuming that all posters on HN are American? An Australian, for example, doesn't care if their car is made in china or not, they are taking the cheaper car! Many countries don't have local auto producers, and they are just going to take the best deal, and that's going to be Chinese. > With statements like yours, it feels like the left is rooting for the most catastrophic outcomes possible for that whole country, just to spite Trump. Even though we'd all lose and Trump wouldn't be affected either way. This only makes sense if the poster is American though right? Otherwise, they are just being pragmatic.
- tokioyoyo 2y agoEven if we consider "China is funding the companies to no end" argument... well, frankly, I wish US would do the same. It is pretty damn cool to see incredible technological progress in huge scale.
- rtsil 2y agoThe various incentives, tax rebates and ZEV credits that Tesla (and other EV manufacturers) benefited and still benefit from are also government funding, so the US already do the same.
- tokioyoyo 2y agoI think US does it in a very small scale, compared to China, and their ideological missions.
- slt2021 2y agoWhat is so special about EV cars? its just an appliance to move from point A to point B, even the electric motor inside EV is from household appliances like washer/dryer. the question should be: Should American consumers be allowed to drive green environmentally friendly cars for $10k or should they be forced to shell out $50k (+interest) to billionaire elon musk
- sodality2 2y ago> What is so special about EV cars? Irrespective of what country, and your belief/disbelief in the threat level, you have to see that a highly internet-reliant device that would bring much of the country anywhere (thanks to car-centric infrastructure) would be a perfect target for a hostile nation, no? With one click you cripple the workforce. Again, speaking nothing of which country is or is not hostile.
- slt2021 2y agohow would that car get access to Internet, if wireless providers are controlled by the USA ? Verizon, ATT, Tmobile and their APNs are controlled by the FCC, and any regulation can force vehicle traffic to be isolated if there is credible threat. but, why would BYD or other nation sabotage its own future profits by bricking cars?? it doesn't make sense. if I sell you gadget, I would never brick it, cause I am going to lose all future profits
- sodality2 2y ago> how would that car get access to Internet, if wireless providers are controlled by the USA ? > Verizon, ATT, Tmobile and their APNs are controlled by the FCC, and any regulation can force vehicle traffic to be isolated if there is credible threat. This response would *not* be soon enough. One response from a server, and the car could be bricked forever, explode/short circuit causing a fire, self-drive into the nearest government building, etc. A car is a huge weapon, especially when remotely controlled. This software could be pre-installed from the factory, with commands injected via side channels. I could imagine a hundred ways to do this. > but, why would BYD or other nation sabotage its own future profits by bricking cars?? it doesn't make sense. I'm precluding this situation with a background level of hostility between nations... they don't care about maximizing profit, but maximizing damage. It would be a government stepping in forcing this.
- cute_boi 2y agoYes, if it means I would have to buy car that costs an arms and a leg like tesla.
- tayo42 2y agoThere's different cars for different needs. F150 is the best selling vehicle in the US even though there are cheaper pick ups and cars in general. There is alot if variety for cars. The US market can't be the only market keeping every European and Asian car manufacturer in business.
- rsynnott 2y agoThis _hasn't_ happened in Europe, which has lower tariff barriers on Chinese cars. BYD has about 15-20% of the EV market, as do VW, Stelantis, Tesla, Hyundai and BMW (unlike the US or China the European market doesn't have one clearly dominant player in EVs); no other Chinese manufacturer really moves the needle (though MG (SAIC) is regionally popular).
- outlace 2y agoAll American car companies would be
- throwaway5752 2y agoTesla is fucked. On 12/17/24 they hit a 52 week high around $490 per share. Since then, in less than two months, they have lost one third of their value. https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/TSLA/ https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/TSLA/ Musk has single-handedly alienated his core domestic buying demographic in favor of a group that, when polled, says they would not consider an EV at rates of around 70%. EU markets in which TSLA was viable but contested are even worse. This while Tesla's strongest international competitor is passing on units sold, executing better, and underpricing them. As someone who has followed Tesla since the Model S, previously held Musk in some regard, and test drove a Model 3 I find this such an abject travesty of an outcome for what should have been a great US based global car maker and someone who had the potential to accomplish such good for the world with their incredible wealth and privilege.
- tokioyoyo 2y agoTo my understanding, the ridiculous stock price and valuation have absolutely nothing to do with the car business. It's basically the potential hopes and dreams of what the leadership can do with direct access to US government.
- sockaddr 2y agoYup. And don't buy the line that Elon made Tesla a success. They had the core tech and talent to build an EV (without all the other bullshit he added) before he came along. Given enough time they could have been something on their own too.
- amazingamazing 2y ago> Given enough time they could have been something on their own too. This is based off what? Couldn’t this be argued for literally any company?
- dlivingston 2y agoThis is most definitely not true. Tesla was barely more than an electric powertrain and battery combo when Musk took over. The first production Roadsters even reused the chassis from Porsche 911s (IIRC). Other US competitors aren't at parity with Tesla or BYD. Nikola went bust. Legacy automakers turned out mediocre EVs. Rivian is the only true competitor, but they are a luxury brand and don't have Tesla's crown jewel (the Supercharger network).
- mikl 2y agoSo would all the other western automakers. The lower wage- and energy costs in China would strangle them all.
- seanmcdirmid 2y agoTesla sells a lot of cars in China (made in China) and exports lots of cars it makes in China to countries like Australia.
- drawkward 2y agoAnd without EV subsidies