9 ms·

Reviving the joy and honor of working with your hands (2015)

133 points by skadamat 2y ago

robomc 2y ago
> It’s all part of the sharp decline in vocational education — shop class — in this nation that began in the 1980s as blue collars became unfashionable and the emphasis shifted to a college education. Yeah that's what happened. They became "unfashionable", rather than hopelessly precarious due to structural economic changes.
- almosthere 2y ago
  What is wild to me about that, is that there is a huge untapped market for 1 man builds. If I can go out and build a house twice a year for 150-200k each, and sell them for 400-500k, then I'm way ahead of what I would get as a remote developer. And 400-500 is conservative, in the right market, 600-700. What bothers me is gatekeeping the capital to do this, as well as the "apprenticeship" requirements to get your gen con license. It would solve two problems simultaneously - something laid off engineers can easily do (they are problem solvers and fast learners). I'm building my own house, and it's ridiculously easy (not all parts). I hope to build more after and sell them.
  - nancyminusone 2y ago
    If that's what's bothering you, there's no way in hell I'd hire you to build a house.
    - quesera 2y ago
      That's unnecessarily hostile. House building is not that difficult. And literally zero of the licensed trades (plumbing, electrical, HVAC, etc) cannot be learned by a smart and motivated person in 1-2 months at most, instead of the multiple years (each, nonconcurrently) required for apprentice, journeyman, and eventual master licensing. I've built three houses. I subbed out the work that was required by local regs (this varies by jurisdiction and year), and did the work myself, with inspection where available, wherever possible. Not difficult at all.
      - hobs 2y ago
        I would not want a house wired by a 60 day electrician, that's for sure. I don't think I'd want a flood done by the 60 day plumber either, but those are the only two trades I am familiar enough with to be aghast by this comment.
        quesera 2y ago
        I'm sure that's true. And it means that you do not know how to do electrical or plumbing work. That's fine! But take it from someone who does: it does not take years of training to be excellent at it. Household electric and plumbing is extremely straightforward. Commercial can be much more complicated! And if you run into any semi-complicated stuff, like say a bathroom below grade where you need a toilet to flush uphill ... you learn it from the vast resources available, or you call a plumber for that bit. Simple. Similarly, if you ever are not 100% certain of your own work, you call a licensed tradesman for the inspection. Note that this is not always allowed -- but where it is, everyone agrees that it makes total sense.
        hondo77 2y ago
        Household electric doesn't necessarily take years but it takes longer than 60 days of YouTube videos.
        quesera 2y ago
        I learned it in a few days of work. You could too. I don't recommend YouTube though! The most complicated thing is knowing the code, which boils down to just a handful of simple rules for residential stuff. Most importantly: look it up, don't guess. There's a right way to do everything, and it's never the hard way. There is very little variance or judgement call involved, the code is quite clear and specific. Doing it right might take additional materials or time though, and that's fine.
        XorNot 2y ago
        Just want to say the push back you're getting on this topic is one I've experienced everywhere - the actual work of the trades is basically treated as an unknowable black magic which only it's arcane practitioners can do. Which I think is partly held up essentially by the "dodgy tradie" stories which are routinely passed around but get re-interpreted as "it's very easy to do <obvious stupid thing>" when the stupid thing is something like "don't do a wire run from 10 short pieces of wire you have lying around" or "PVC pipes need to be glued together to not leak".
    - carlosjobim 2y ago
      Any man who is unable to learn to build a house is far behind the average in talent. Everybody used to build their own houses.
      - harimau777 2y ago
        I think that may be due to differences in building standards between then and now. For example, fire was a much greater risk in previous generations.
        potato3732842 2y ago
        It's not that buildings burn that much less readily today. It's that in the past they caught fire way more often. The plethora of wood stoves, lanterns for light, matches for smoking, etc, etc, had more to to with it than anything else.
      - 8bitsrule 2y ago
        In the US here was a decades-long period when you could buy a set of books for next-to-nothing (from Audel; most are now public domain) that would fill you in on most details of most trades. You (along with friends and relatives) could do the parts you understood and farm out the rest. My dad (Navy electrician) built his own house with help from a Navy friend (carpenter). It sold a half-century later for 5 times what it cost him. The stucco exterior (whoever did it) lasted with zero fails in a climate that varied from -30F to +90F.
    - almosthere 2y ago
      Most people in those individual trades hired by D.R. Horton are doing things as fast as possible with the cheapest materials. I personally would want a person that is being paid very well that oversaw every nail, every wire going into that house. But :shrug: I don't mind you not being my customer. I will give my meticulously installed kiln dried studs/plates, zip sheathing, rockwool, interior rockwool, exterior rockwool jacket and james hardie fireproof house to someone that appreciates it!
    - ty6853 2y ago
      That's not how one off man and a truck builds normally work. Its usually only viable as a business when doing owner/builder on your own dime then flipping it and repeat. Clients don't want to wait years for one man, nor will banks, but someone will almost certainly buy even a half ass built house upon completion. Sometimes you also see tradesman do this during down seasons, as it gives them a steady flow of stuff to do that they can complete almost as slow as they like then flip when done. The buyer likely won't have any insight into the personal motivations of the builder, or what bothers them.
  - bongodongobob 2y ago
    That's hilarious. I'd rather hire a team of people that have specialized teams and have built 1000s of houses, not a guy that built one and thinks he's really good at it, sorry.
    - _carbyau_ 2y ago
      I understand the point of specialisation/efficiency etc. The concern I have is that of conflicting motives. A person who builds their own house will care about what they built. A specialised team will care to get paid and know all the corners to cut to get the job done to the minimum standard. What kind of house do you want? One built robustly with care? Or one built to minimum standard? Not everyone wants minimum standard.
      - bongodongobob 2y ago
        It just sounds like you don't know how construction works.
        _carbyau_ 2y ago
        It just sounds like you don't know how people work. As some of the other "I build my own house" commenters here have mentioned, nothing stops them from hiring people when they want and specifying higher than code minimums. Building your own house doesn't mean you have to do absolutely everything even when it doesn't make sense because someone else has the tools to do it better. But it does mean they have the choice.
        bongodongobob 2y ago
        I work for a national construction company. You saying "construction not done diy = bad quality" makes you an absolute clown dude, just stop. There are guys working here that have been tradesman before you were born. The arrogance to say you can do it better is astonishing.
        2y ago
  - loa_in_ 2y ago
    It's the same logic as people doing machineworking projects on YouTube. Things thought crazy, but not so crazy after all, fascinating instead. Going off the beaten path might be expensive at first, but the payoff is much better too. Emanating inspiration lasts for ages and is immeasurable in value.
nicoburns 2y ago
I wish education wasn't so split between "academic" and "vocational" (for lack of better terms). In high school for my A levels I was able to take both Maths, Physics and Politics (with an academic focus) and Metalworking and Photography (with a more practical hands-on focus). I loved this, and feel like this was incredibly useful to me later in life. But for some reason beyond school level you are mostly forced to choose between academics and hands-on work (at least in the UK). With the hands-on pathways being looked down on by much of society.
- bjelkeman-again 2y ago
  I went back to university to study environmental science. After that, years later, I ended up starting a company designing closed loop food production systems, (well, semi-closed). I designed and built it with friends, investors and colleagues. Very satisfying. (The fish farm has since the pictures been significantly upgraded.) https://cirkularodling.se/build-an-aquaponic-indoor-farm-part-3-build-log/ https://cirkularodling.se/build-an-aquaponic-indoor-farm-par...
- lnsru 2y ago
  It’s absolutely the same in Germany. Trade people against academics. Luckily as an electrical engineer I can pick both tracks simultaneously. Many people are less lucky. The funny thing that self employed plumber or electrician can live way better than salaried worker with university diploma.
- ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
  Because of reasons, my education was a vocational tech school. The fly-by-night type that sprang up in the 1980s, to suck at the teat of the GI Bill, and all those Vietnam vets (many of my classmates were vets). It's long gone, now, but it taught me to be a good worker. They had dress codes, fixed, workday-long hours, little vacation, and behavioral rules. By the time I graduated, I was able to immediately start working in a defense contractor's shop. When I went in, I was pretty much worthless to the workforce. I know of folks that credit the military for similar structure. There's a lot of things that I could have learned at Stanford or MIT (my parents wanted to send me there, but I insisted on paying my own way -see "reasons," above, and they probably would have passed on me anyway -"reasons"). Did OK.
skadamat 2y ago
Shop Class as Soulcraft essay (and book) continues on these points pretty well: https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/shop-class-as-soulcraft https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/shop-class-as-so...
- iainctduncan 2y ago
  Absolutely brilliant book. His other one is great too.
alnwlsn 2y ago
I'm glad the "heavy" part of this is not understated. The big iron is out there, surprisingly cheap, and it usually stays put for quite a while because it is a damn bitch to move. Tear down a wall, and put it back later. And make sure your floor won't cave in. If you ever get yourself into serious hobby machining, get ready for the average density of all your possessions to double.
moribvndvs 2y ago
My father was a machinist for 25 years and then went into education and training for skilled trades, very much screamed about this for most my life. When I dropped out of college, he tried to get me to just enter an apprenticeship for a trade. It’ll be dirty, uncomfortable, sometimes painful, he said, but you’ll leave your work when you go home, and if you’re dedicated and half-good at it, you could eventually have your own business and crew before the physical stuff catches up to you. By then the lack of experienced tradesmen here will have turned into an crisis and I would be in an enviable spot. Here I am, 25 years later, worried I didn’t listen. Hypothetically, I wonder how viable it is to switch to a vocation like electrician or HVAC in your 40s-50s.
- Loughla 2y ago
  Go to a community college and get your certifications. The problem is that the wages are way low starting out. That's why young people tend to do it. If you can swing the first three or four years, then start your own business, you'll be good.
  - bitwize 2y ago
    Even as an old man (late 40s)?
    - lemonberry 2y ago
      Old man? You don't have to age like previous generations. I just turned 50 and feel great. Take care of your body and mind, laugh a lot, spend time with good people, and don't let preconceived notions of what aging looks like dictate your future.
      - giraffe_lady 2y ago
        Yeah but what do you do for work? You don't have to age like previous generations, but if you work trades for 40 years you definitely will. I don't know about transitioning to hard work in your 40s or later. My background is blue collar but it's telling that I don't know anyone working a skilled trade over 45 who started later than say 30. I don't know any over 45 who would probably say they feel great either.
memhole 2y ago
It's super cool to build things. I love talking to people at the makerspace. Lot's of people working on interesting projects. I can't imagine not having home ec either. I don't remember the teachers name, but I've made a quesadilla the same way since 5th grade. Some tech skills are helpful too. I typically CAD projects so I know what size lumber and cuts need to be made.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
s1artibartfast 2y ago
I'm split on the topic. I think there is value in working with your hands on a service basis, but don't believe in trying to build things. My father was a farmer for 40 years and built a business that was supposed to be his retirement. Then the government eminent domained his water rights without any compensation, destroying his life's work, and leaving him and all the other farmers in the area high and dry. Now I don't build anything that isnt cashed out immediately.
- cbracketdash 2y ago
  May I ask which region this happened in? Building things is the powerhouse of societal innovation and if you live in a democratic country, you can vote out bad policy!
  - ty6853 2y ago
    More and more the majority has discovered they can vote themselves into someone else's pocket. City dwellers can also horde water aquifers, and since they don't have the firsthand experience of drilling a $30,000 well they're oblivious as to how they ruin others.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    Southern California, USA. The funny thing about democracies is other votes count too. 99% of the population is happy with the outcome because they get more water water and don't have any person rights they feel are put at risk. I'm guessing the state figured most of the farmers in their 60s can't afford legal challenge when there primary financial assets were cut out from under them and if they do, it can be tied up in the courts until most of them die. That's how it seems to be playing out anyways.
- dh2022 2y ago
  “Portable property, my good sir, portable property”, Charles Dickens, A Tale of Two Cities.
gnarcoregrizz 2y ago
Shit's tough though. Most tradespeople have lots of injuries... smashed hands, bad joints, have to breathe in toxic shit all day, bad hearing. My 35yo friend can hardly stand from back pain. And, it can be _very_ skilled. Business/shop owners can and do make quite a bit more than the standard software engineer.
- attila-lendvai 2y ago
  i have 35yo programmer friends who can hardly stand from back pain. i don't want to diminish the risk of injuries, but in big part it's also a question of lifestyle. every once in a while even programmers need to lift something beyond their current capacity... and even craftsmen can become couch potatos who only lift at work when they must... and because of that lose touch with their limits. (programmer here who does metalworks as a hobby)
  - XorNot 2y ago
    Nothing reminds you of your mortality when on the weekend you feel the exact moment you were twisting just slightly the wrong way while moving something.
    - ngcc_hk 2y ago
      Or just put the sun shade of my car to the back seat and twist my left arm … still pain after 1 year.
- 3D30497420 2y ago
  I subscribe to number of construction/trades-related sub-Reddits, mostly to learn since I'm starting to do a lot more DIY work on my house. It really is a tough job physically, both in overall strain and specific injuries. Many people on those groups (especially the older ones) talk about downing painkillers just to get themselves through the day. Edit: Actually reading the article now, and... > One slip and you get a hand or foot bitten off. A jack slipped once and smashed the side of his jaw, requiring $20,000 in dental surgery. “I kept working that day, though.” That's insane and just toxic. I feel like so much of this "working with your hands" is joined with this idea of making people "tougher" because that's intrinsically better. Edit 2: And this: > You know, I’m more proud of being a journeyman bricklayer than being a college biology graduate. To know how to work with your hands is a great gift, good for your body and your heart. Why? I get this is a politician saying this, but I see little reason why one should be mythologized more than the other.
cbracketdash 2y ago
An open-ended question to HN: given the current rate of innovation in AI and the increase in popularity (hence more uni students studying CS), will learning a trade still be worth it 10 years down the line?
- neom 2y ago
  Depends on what happens with robotics, but I don't think I can even imagine how to put myself in the shoes of a 17 year old in 10 years time thinking about the future, I'd guess the things they can dream to go and do will be vastly different than we did? The Anthropic AI report was very eye opening, and then this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu7LSNYWDTs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu7LSNYWDTs Gilbert Houngbo, Director-General of the International Labour Organization did an interesting interview with DW today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhbQvcnugVc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhbQvcnugVc
- nradov 2y ago
  We're a lot more than 10 years away from a robot that can snake out a plugged toilet.
- redeux 2y ago
  In a timeline where ai continues to advance at the current rate and ends up destroying a lot of office jobs I could see the trades becoming much more competitive since the potential labor pool would become much larger.
  - roenxi 2y ago
    Yeah but that isn't exactly the question - AI will presumably push up the median living standard because a bunch of things get cheaper and nothing gets worse. There are just more options and everything is better organised. A bit like being a king in ancient India vs a barista today. The barista still gets better medical care than the king, even though it is a much lower status role and quite competitive compared to ruling a country. The real question is "what roles are going to be in a good position to capture value from all the wealth generation?". As far as people selling labour are concerned it could be the trades.
WillAdams 2y ago
This is why the Northern European countries have a tradition of teaching Sloyd Woodworing in elementary schools: https://rainfordrestorations.com/2013/06/04/traditional-sloyd-tool-cabinet/ https://rainfordrestorations.com/2013/06/04/traditional-sloy... >Students may never pick up a tool again, but they will forever have the knowledge of how to make and evaluate things with your hand and your eye and appreciate the labor of others.
- jabl 2y ago
  It's spelled "slöjd", and yes, kids in Nordic countries do it in primary school (grades 1-9 or thereabouts). It's not only woodworking, often alternating with textile work (sewing, crocheting etc.), and towards the higher grades there's usually some metal work, maybe a bit of soldering etc.
  - unwind 2y ago
    It sure is spelled "slöjd" in Swedish, but sloyd [1] seems to be a loan word into English from the late 1800s and the spelling was adjusted. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloyd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloyd
atkailash 2y ago
[dead]
aporetics 2y ago
You would think that at the very least our military would not tolerate having to build its machinery with parts from abroad. Can anyone speak to this?
Animats 2y ago
The maker movement is so dead in the US that it's been forgotten. I had a TechShop membership for years, and a TheShop membership after that, right up to the bankruptcy. The gym business model doesn't fit. Gyms work because people only show up a few hours per week, max. A gym can have 10x to 30x its capacity in members. For a maker space, people show up more, and it's only 2x - 3x. I went to the wake for maker spaces, a small meeting in Silicon Valley. Some guy from TechShop made excuses. The guy who bought Heathkit went on about their retro kits. Then we all went home. There are still some maker spaces, but they're mostly 3D printers, sewing machines, and paper-folding, not lathes and mills. They're much more kid-oriented, with kids doing prescribed projects.
- aeontech 2y ago
  I miss TechShop, it was full of interesting people.
- 8bitsrule 2y ago
  September 26-28, 2025 Bay area https://makerfaire.com/ https://makerfaire.com/ Others in 2025: https://makerfaire.com/upcoming-faires/ https://makerfaire.com/upcoming-faires/
  - Animats 2y ago
    Moving to Mare Island reduced cost, but nobody wants to go there.
AStonesThrow 2y ago
Stranger than fiction to me is the experience of generations who'll have less opportunity, less wealth, less of whatever makes life good, and progressively going down the ladder. There's much ink spilled on civil rights and people who fight to gain opportunity, acceptance into society, good educations, employment and leadership. And perhaps it's not so easy for the privilged folk to accept displacement or disenfranchisement in favor of in-groups. Because if equity and justice are done, every winner is balanced by a loser, because you cannot magically grow an economy to expand rights and include everyone, even with stable resources and game hasn't changed. It didn't escape my notice that there were murmurings of fleeing the city, prepping for disaster, going full granola and off the grid and kiss this world goodbye soon. Are we in the Matrix? Mom's basement with a kitkat bar? Are all the birds replaced by machines? I've been studying a bit of philosophy and history and seeing threads that just can't be denied, where the struggle for power and privilege is claiming casualties as abortion, addiction, mental illness, homelessness and unemployment. It seems absurd to propose that we're a society enslaved by machines, or Life Liberty & the Pursuit of Happiness aren't as equitable as we'd hoped. But I am taking sick and perverse pleasures in simply hand-decorating Thank-You notes with a fistful of magic markers, and folding up paper and doing other things in meatspace, things that were unthinkable when my hands were welded to the Super NES controls or Type M Keyboard.
- ngcc_hk 2y ago
  It is part thinking in an “or” manner and pure fashion. Necessary for a group to work but not for a society. It is very hard to find a philosophy and religion that cover its differences within itself. Society even extreme totalitarian cannot be pure but try. But say a Darkroom workshop you cannot easy do miller etc. A republican group is hard to get some social … a middle of the road killed by both sides … How to accommodate and work with difference is a question. Both AI and non-AI … the key is the and part.
  - AStonesThrow 2y ago
    Yeah, as a child I felt the effects of a pure community, as I perceived it, but I was convinced that the world was how it looked on radio and TV. So working in tech I realized how bonkers and hypocritical that could be, and began clinging to forgotten traditions and lost arts of the past as if I could recover them or convince others to go full Luddite. Rather than following the threads back and forth to see that it's all a journey in space and time, and I had no idea about 1,000km away, much less 80 years ago in my own state!
noufalibrahim 2y ago
I recently read a book called "Shop Class as Soul Craft" which talks about "the trades" and how it shapes the individual and the nation. I found it really enlightening and highly recommend it. I have a few hobbies that are somewhat physical (whittling, calligraphy) and the shift from purely digital work to those are very relaxing. There's something special about involving more senses that just your eyes with a job.
at_a_remove 2y ago
Before the fall of Techshop, they offered me a setup where I could take all of the classes I wanted in three months. Muhahahahaha. I already had a few advantages going in: a year of drafting in high school, a year of computer drafting in college (mind you the tools were long dead); the ability to think in parametrics; courses in engineering to go with my physics degree; and just being a general geek. Like a maniac, I took all but one class they offered. Probably one of the happiest times of my life, scampering around the shop and churning out trinkets for friends and family, making weird art projects for myself.
Duanemclemore 2y ago
I think the protagonist of this article is as rad as the story is sad. I do understand the desire to frame the narrative as having the most possible impact, but I think the framing ("joy and honor?" "strengthen our nation") is ham-fisted and reductive. It starts to unpack something meaningful though... It IS a huge shame to see wood and machine shop programs disappear. Even if you're not "blue collar" or a "craftsperson" there are massive benefits to learning the processes of working with your hands. At my undergrad architecture school you had to learn to use the shop in your first weeks. If you were familiar with the tools you had to go through the training and get re-certified. If you were never required to use them before, now you were. But power tools are such a time saver for always busy architecture students that you just did it anyway. Even if somehow you managed to avoid it you were still required to make physical models which requires precision, attention to detail, and care around sharp tools. In the 2000's there was a move toward an entirely digital pedagogy, but the pendulum has swung back - in architectural education today we require our students to make physical models. Many professors are less passionate about making still require a final model to "prove" your ideas. But as someone who bangs on endlessly about the lessons to be learned from craft I make my students use them as a constant and iterative process of prototyping and testing ideas. There are some things that absolutely cannot be understood without having to struggle through how to represent them in real materials with real properties, in space, and subjected to gravity. Hand craft makes you plan your actions carefully - even in the small. There is no undo button on a hundred dollar piece of burl walnut. And unless you learn to always be constantly aware of your body and movements (heck, let's intellectualize and call it proprioception) a chop saw can get a little... choppy. Understanding that "let the machine do the work" is simultaneously safety advice AND a philosophical masterstroke is sublime. I never took a shop or vo-tech class, but I grew up around machines and craft. My father was a union machinist making jet engines (and tooling), only retiring from poor health right after hitting his 30 years. His stepdad got him in to the trade, and was a career machinist turned manager. My dad's half brothers were gearheads - one has bought, revived, and sold literally more cars than he can count with nothing more than a vo-tech degree (but his first flip when he was 14). His day job is in machining consumables sales. His home shop would put most of his clients to shame. My dad's other half brother has an Associates in Electrical Engineering and has always been in high demand as an embedded and controls systems programmer. I changed my parents' oil for the first time solo when I was eight (for reference I also wrote my first simple computer program when I was seven). We all grew up working closely with machines. It was just what we did. To this day I'm the one in any situation who winds up fixing anything wonky. I can't explain it beyond "sometimes machines just speak to me." Sounds ridiculous but it's just a process of understanding through exposure how things normally should work and how to spot the things that are out of whack. Once you can understand the cues these complex machine systems want to give you it provides insight into ones you've never worked with before... That's all to say even in the most intellectual modes there are lessons to be learned from understanding how to use (and not use!!!) machines. The death of shop class is unfortunate and short-sighted. Everyone across the political spectrum is guilty, all together for the death or flight of the industries that demanded these classes in the first place. I don't believe there's anything -intrinsically- redemptive about understanding these processes. (Knowing lots of building tradesmen will immediately put lie to the more over-the-top notions in the article.) But the ability to mediate between your brain and the outcomes of physical processes that comes with machine work is exciting (even joyful yes) and filled with lessons far beyond learning to face mill a plate or lathe a precise cylinder, etc.
FinnLobsien 2y ago
I think the fact that essays like this one proliferate is showing a cultural reversion. For the past few decades, there was a push for everyone to get a university degree, driven by a prmise that academic achievement would guarantee a prosperous life: A good salary and a high-status job. We've seen that promise broken. Especially in the US, where student loans are a drag on people's lives. But even in Europe, where people will get degrees in things that are better taught on the job (i.e. graphic design) and still need to struggle getting internships and even badly-paid junior roles. I think it's been known for a long time that you can make money in the crafts, often more than you do in entry-level office jobs. But I think an important part of making the crafts more popular is status. If your dad is a lawyer and your mom is a professor, you might not get encouragement if you want to be a welder, chef or roofer. There needs to be more respect for those professions. They, too should get respect for learning a complex craft and mastering it.
nativeit 2y ago
Go I’ll
djoldman 2y ago
> It’s all part of the sharp decline in vocational education — shop class — in this nation that began in the 1980s as blue collars became unfashionable and the emphasis shifted to a college education. Low supply? > “There’s a huge need for people in CTE fields,” Kaine told me Friday. “The old stigma about CTE, or vocational education, that’s really disappearing and there’s kind of a renaissance going on.” Big demand? This would imply that machinists, etc., are enjoying a big surge in salary. Is this true?
- psd1 2y ago
  I can only offer anecdata, but good luck getting a plumber to attend in London without paying £100 for them to cross the threshold

133 points by skadamat 2y ago

> It’s all part of the sharp decline in vocational education — shop class — in this nation that began in the 1980s as blue collars became unfashionable and the emphasis shifted to a college education. Yeah that's what happened. They became "unfashionable", rather than hopelessly precarious due to structural economic changes.

almosthere 2y ago
What is wild to me about that, is that there is a huge untapped market for 1 man builds. If I can go out and build a house twice a year for 150-200k each, and sell them for 400-500k, then I'm way ahead of what I would get as a remote developer. And 400-500 is conservative, in the right market, 600-700. What bothers me is gatekeeping the capital to do this, as well as the "apprenticeship" requirements to get your gen con license. It would solve two problems simultaneously - something laid off engineers can easily do (they are problem solvers and fast learners). I'm building my own house, and it's ridiculously easy (not all parts). I hope to build more after and sell them.
- nancyminusone 2y ago
  If that's what's bothering you, there's no way in hell I'd hire you to build a house.
  - quesera 2y ago
    That's unnecessarily hostile. House building is not that difficult. And literally zero of the licensed trades (plumbing, electrical, HVAC, etc) cannot be learned by a smart and motivated person in 1-2 months at most, instead of the multiple years (each, nonconcurrently) required for apprentice, journeyman, and eventual master licensing. I've built three houses. I subbed out the work that was required by local regs (this varies by jurisdiction and year), and did the work myself, with inspection where available, wherever possible. Not difficult at all.
    - hobs 2y ago
      I would not want a house wired by a 60 day electrician, that's for sure. I don't think I'd want a flood done by the 60 day plumber either, but those are the only two trades I am familiar enough with to be aghast by this comment.
      - quesera 2y ago
        I'm sure that's true. And it means that you do not know how to do electrical or plumbing work. That's fine! But take it from someone who does: it does not take years of training to be excellent at it. Household electric and plumbing is extremely straightforward. Commercial can be much more complicated! And if you run into any semi-complicated stuff, like say a bathroom below grade where you need a toilet to flush uphill ... you learn it from the vast resources available, or you call a plumber for that bit. Simple. Similarly, if you ever are not 100% certain of your own work, you call a licensed tradesman for the inspection. Note that this is not always allowed -- but where it is, everyone agrees that it makes total sense.
        hondo77 2y ago
        Household electric doesn't necessarily take years but it takes longer than 60 days of YouTube videos.
        quesera 2y ago
        I learned it in a few days of work. You could too. I don't recommend YouTube though! The most complicated thing is knowing the code, which boils down to just a handful of simple rules for residential stuff. Most importantly: look it up, don't guess. There's a right way to do everything, and it's never the hard way. There is very little variance or judgement call involved, the code is quite clear and specific. Doing it right might take additional materials or time though, and that's fine.
        XorNot 2y ago
        Just want to say the push back you're getting on this topic is one I've experienced everywhere - the actual work of the trades is basically treated as an unknowable black magic which only it's arcane practitioners can do. Which I think is partly held up essentially by the "dodgy tradie" stories which are routinely passed around but get re-interpreted as "it's very easy to do <obvious stupid thing>" when the stupid thing is something like "don't do a wire run from 10 short pieces of wire you have lying around" or "PVC pipes need to be glued together to not leak".
  - carlosjobim 2y ago
    Any man who is unable to learn to build a house is far behind the average in talent. Everybody used to build their own houses.
    - harimau777 2y ago
      I think that may be due to differences in building standards between then and now. For example, fire was a much greater risk in previous generations.
      - potato3732842 2y ago
        It's not that buildings burn that much less readily today. It's that in the past they caught fire way more often. The plethora of wood stoves, lanterns for light, matches for smoking, etc, etc, had more to to with it than anything else.
    - 8bitsrule 2y ago
      In the US here was a decades-long period when you could buy a set of books for next-to-nothing (from Audel; most are now public domain) that would fill you in on most details of most trades. You (along with friends and relatives) could do the parts you understood and farm out the rest. My dad (Navy electrician) built his own house with help from a Navy friend (carpenter). It sold a half-century later for 5 times what it cost him. The stucco exterior (whoever did it) lasted with zero fails in a climate that varied from -30F to +90F.
  - almosthere 2y ago
    Most people in those individual trades hired by D.R. Horton are doing things as fast as possible with the cheapest materials. I personally would want a person that is being paid very well that oversaw every nail, every wire going into that house. But :shrug: I don't mind you not being my customer. I will give my meticulously installed kiln dried studs/plates, zip sheathing, rockwool, interior rockwool, exterior rockwool jacket and james hardie fireproof house to someone that appreciates it!
  - ty6853 2y ago
    That's not how one off man and a truck builds normally work. Its usually only viable as a business when doing owner/builder on your own dime then flipping it and repeat. Clients don't want to wait years for one man, nor will banks, but someone will almost certainly buy even a half ass built house upon completion. Sometimes you also see tradesman do this during down seasons, as it gives them a steady flow of stuff to do that they can complete almost as slow as they like then flip when done. The buyer likely won't have any insight into the personal motivations of the builder, or what bothers them.
- bongodongobob 2y ago
  That's hilarious. I'd rather hire a team of people that have specialized teams and have built 1000s of houses, not a guy that built one and thinks he's really good at it, sorry.
  - _carbyau_ 2y ago
    I understand the point of specialisation/efficiency etc. The concern I have is that of conflicting motives. A person who builds their own house will care about what they built. A specialised team will care to get paid and know all the corners to cut to get the job done to the minimum standard. What kind of house do you want? One built robustly with care? Or one built to minimum standard? Not everyone wants minimum standard.
    - bongodongobob 2y ago
      It just sounds like you don't know how construction works.
      - _carbyau_ 2y ago
        It just sounds like you don't know how people work. As some of the other "I build my own house" commenters here have mentioned, nothing stops them from hiring people when they want and specifying higher than code minimums. Building your own house doesn't mean you have to do absolutely everything even when it doesn't make sense because someone else has the tools to do it better. But it does mean they have the choice.
        bongodongobob 2y ago
        I work for a national construction company. You saying "construction not done diy = bad quality" makes you an absolute clown dude, just stop. There are guys working here that have been tradesman before you were born. The arrogance to say you can do it better is astonishing.
        2y ago
- loa_in_ 2y ago
  It's the same logic as people doing machineworking projects on YouTube. Things thought crazy, but not so crazy after all, fascinating instead. Going off the beaten path might be expensive at first, but the payoff is much better too. Emanating inspiration lasts for ages and is immeasurable in value.

nicoburns 2y ago

I wish education wasn't so split between "academic" and "vocational" (for lack of better terms). In high school for my A levels I was able to take both Maths, Physics and Politics (with an academic focus) and Metalworking and Photography (with a more practical hands-on focus). I loved this, and feel like this was incredibly useful to me later in life. But for some reason beyond school level you are mostly forced to choose between academics and hands-on work (at least in the UK). With the hands-on pathways being looked down on by much of society.

bjelkeman-again 2y ago
I went back to university to study environmental science. After that, years later, I ended up starting a company designing closed loop food production systems, (well, semi-closed). I designed and built it with friends, investors and colleagues. Very satisfying. (The fish farm has since the pictures been significantly upgraded.) https://cirkularodling.se/build-an-aquaponic-indoor-farm-part-3-build-log/ https://cirkularodling.se/build-an-aquaponic-indoor-farm-par...
lnsru 2y ago
It’s absolutely the same in Germany. Trade people against academics. Luckily as an electrical engineer I can pick both tracks simultaneously. Many people are less lucky. The funny thing that self employed plumber or electrician can live way better than salaried worker with university diploma.
ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
Because of reasons, my education was a vocational tech school. The fly-by-night type that sprang up in the 1980s, to suck at the teat of the GI Bill, and all those Vietnam vets (many of my classmates were vets). It's long gone, now, but it taught me to be a good worker. They had dress codes, fixed, workday-long hours, little vacation, and behavioral rules. By the time I graduated, I was able to immediately start working in a defense contractor's shop. When I went in, I was pretty much worthless to the workforce. I know of folks that credit the military for similar structure. There's a lot of things that I could have learned at Stanford or MIT (my parents wanted to send me there, but I insisted on paying my own way -see "reasons," above, and they probably would have passed on me anyway -"reasons"). Did OK.

skadamat 2y ago

Shop Class as Soulcraft essay (and book) continues on these points pretty well: https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/shop-class-as-soulcraft https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/shop-class-as-so...

iainctduncan 2y ago
Absolutely brilliant book. His other one is great too.

alnwlsn 2y ago

I'm glad the "heavy" part of this is not understated. The big iron is out there, surprisingly cheap, and it usually stays put for quite a while because it is a damn bitch to move. Tear down a wall, and put it back later. And make sure your floor won't cave in. If you ever get yourself into serious hobby machining, get ready for the average density of all your possessions to double.

moribvndvs 2y ago

My father was a machinist for 25 years and then went into education and training for skilled trades, very much screamed about this for most my life. When I dropped out of college, he tried to get me to just enter an apprenticeship for a trade. It’ll be dirty, uncomfortable, sometimes painful, he said, but you’ll leave your work when you go home, and if you’re dedicated and half-good at it, you could eventually have your own business and crew before the physical stuff catches up to you. By then the lack of experienced tradesmen here will have turned into an crisis and I would be in an enviable spot. Here I am, 25 years later, worried I didn’t listen. Hypothetically, I wonder how viable it is to switch to a vocation like electrician or HVAC in your 40s-50s.

Loughla 2y ago
Go to a community college and get your certifications. The problem is that the wages are way low starting out. That's why young people tend to do it. If you can swing the first three or four years, then start your own business, you'll be good.
- bitwize 2y ago
  Even as an old man (late 40s)?
  - lemonberry 2y ago
    Old man? You don't have to age like previous generations. I just turned 50 and feel great. Take care of your body and mind, laugh a lot, spend time with good people, and don't let preconceived notions of what aging looks like dictate your future.
    - giraffe_lady 2y ago
      Yeah but what do you do for work? You don't have to age like previous generations, but if you work trades for 40 years you definitely will. I don't know about transitioning to hard work in your 40s or later. My background is blue collar but it's telling that I don't know anyone working a skilled trade over 45 who started later than say 30. I don't know any over 45 who would probably say they feel great either.

memhole 2y ago

It's super cool to build things. I love talking to people at the makerspace. Lot's of people working on interesting projects. I can't imagine not having home ec either. I don't remember the teachers name, but I've made a quesadilla the same way since 5th grade. Some tech skills are helpful too. I typically CAD projects so I know what size lumber and cuts need to be made.

deleted 2y ago

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s1artibartfast 2y ago

I'm split on the topic. I think there is value in working with your hands on a service basis, but don't believe in trying to build things. My father was a farmer for 40 years and built a business that was supposed to be his retirement. Then the government eminent domained his water rights without any compensation, destroying his life's work, and leaving him and all the other farmers in the area high and dry. Now I don't build anything that isnt cashed out immediately.

cbracketdash 2y ago
May I ask which region this happened in? Building things is the powerhouse of societal innovation and if you live in a democratic country, you can vote out bad policy!
- ty6853 2y ago
  More and more the majority has discovered they can vote themselves into someone else's pocket. City dwellers can also horde water aquifers, and since they don't have the firsthand experience of drilling a $30,000 well they're oblivious as to how they ruin others.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  Southern California, USA. The funny thing about democracies is other votes count too. 99% of the population is happy with the outcome because they get more water water and don't have any person rights they feel are put at risk. I'm guessing the state figured most of the farmers in their 60s can't afford legal challenge when there primary financial assets were cut out from under them and if they do, it can be tied up in the courts until most of them die. That's how it seems to be playing out anyways.
dh2022 2y ago
“Portable property, my good sir, portable property”, Charles Dickens, A Tale of Two Cities.

gnarcoregrizz 2y ago

Shit's tough though. Most tradespeople have lots of injuries... smashed hands, bad joints, have to breathe in toxic shit all day, bad hearing. My 35yo friend can hardly stand from back pain. And, it can be _very_ skilled. Business/shop owners can and do make quite a bit more than the standard software engineer.

attila-lendvai 2y ago
i have 35yo programmer friends who can hardly stand from back pain. i don't want to diminish the risk of injuries, but in big part it's also a question of lifestyle. every once in a while even programmers need to lift something beyond their current capacity... and even craftsmen can become couch potatos who only lift at work when they must... and because of that lose touch with their limits. (programmer here who does metalworks as a hobby)
- XorNot 2y ago
  Nothing reminds you of your mortality when on the weekend you feel the exact moment you were twisting just slightly the wrong way while moving something.
  - ngcc_hk 2y ago
    Or just put the sun shade of my car to the back seat and twist my left arm … still pain after 1 year.
3D30497420 2y ago
I subscribe to number of construction/trades-related sub-Reddits, mostly to learn since I'm starting to do a lot more DIY work on my house. It really is a tough job physically, both in overall strain and specific injuries. Many people on those groups (especially the older ones) talk about downing painkillers just to get themselves through the day. Edit: Actually reading the article now, and... > One slip and you get a hand or foot bitten off. A jack slipped once and smashed the side of his jaw, requiring $20,000 in dental surgery. “I kept working that day, though.” That's insane and just toxic. I feel like so much of this "working with your hands" is joined with this idea of making people "tougher" because that's intrinsically better. Edit 2: And this: > You know, I’m more proud of being a journeyman bricklayer than being a college biology graduate. To know how to work with your hands is a great gift, good for your body and your heart. Why? I get this is a politician saying this, but I see little reason why one should be mythologized more than the other.

cbracketdash 2y ago

An open-ended question to HN: given the current rate of innovation in AI and the increase in popularity (hence more uni students studying CS), will learning a trade still be worth it 10 years down the line?

neom 2y ago
Depends on what happens with robotics, but I don't think I can even imagine how to put myself in the shoes of a 17 year old in 10 years time thinking about the future, I'd guess the things they can dream to go and do will be vastly different than we did? The Anthropic AI report was very eye opening, and then this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu7LSNYWDTs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu7LSNYWDTs Gilbert Houngbo, Director-General of the International Labour Organization did an interesting interview with DW today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhbQvcnugVc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhbQvcnugVc
nradov 2y ago
We're a lot more than 10 years away from a robot that can snake out a plugged toilet.
redeux 2y ago
In a timeline where ai continues to advance at the current rate and ends up destroying a lot of office jobs I could see the trades becoming much more competitive since the potential labor pool would become much larger.
- roenxi 2y ago
  Yeah but that isn't exactly the question - AI will presumably push up the median living standard because a bunch of things get cheaper and nothing gets worse. There are just more options and everything is better organised. A bit like being a king in ancient India vs a barista today. The barista still gets better medical care than the king, even though it is a much lower status role and quite competitive compared to ruling a country. The real question is "what roles are going to be in a good position to capture value from all the wealth generation?". As far as people selling labour are concerned it could be the trades.

WillAdams 2y ago

This is why the Northern European countries have a tradition of teaching Sloyd Woodworing in elementary schools: https://rainfordrestorations.com/2013/06/04/traditional-sloyd-tool-cabinet/ https://rainfordrestorations.com/2013/06/04/traditional-sloy... >Students may never pick up a tool again, but they will forever have the knowledge of how to make and evaluate things with your hand and your eye and appreciate the labor of others.

jabl 2y ago
It's spelled "slöjd", and yes, kids in Nordic countries do it in primary school (grades 1-9 or thereabouts). It's not only woodworking, often alternating with textile work (sewing, crocheting etc.), and towards the higher grades there's usually some metal work, maybe a bit of soldering etc.
- unwind 2y ago
  It sure is spelled "slöjd" in Swedish, but sloyd [1] seems to be a loan word into English from the late 1800s and the spelling was adjusted. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloyd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloyd

atkailash 2y ago

[dead]

aporetics 2y ago

You would think that at the very least our military would not tolerate having to build its machinery with parts from abroad. Can anyone speak to this?

Animats 2y ago

The maker movement is so dead in the US that it's been forgotten. I had a TechShop membership for years, and a TheShop membership after that, right up to the bankruptcy. The gym business model doesn't fit. Gyms work because people only show up a few hours per week, max. A gym can have 10x to 30x its capacity in members. For a maker space, people show up more, and it's only 2x - 3x. I went to the wake for maker spaces, a small meeting in Silicon Valley. Some guy from TechShop made excuses. The guy who bought Heathkit went on about their retro kits. Then we all went home. There are still some maker spaces, but they're mostly 3D printers, sewing machines, and paper-folding, not lathes and mills. They're much more kid-oriented, with kids doing prescribed projects.

aeontech 2y ago
I miss TechShop, it was full of interesting people.
8bitsrule 2y ago
September 26-28, 2025 Bay area https://makerfaire.com/ https://makerfaire.com/ Others in 2025: https://makerfaire.com/upcoming-faires/ https://makerfaire.com/upcoming-faires/
- Animats 2y ago
  Moving to Mare Island reduced cost, but nobody wants to go there.

AStonesThrow 2y ago

Stranger than fiction to me is the experience of generations who'll have less opportunity, less wealth, less of whatever makes life good, and progressively going down the ladder. There's much ink spilled on civil rights and people who fight to gain opportunity, acceptance into society, good educations, employment and leadership. And perhaps it's not so easy for the privilged folk to accept displacement or disenfranchisement in favor of in-groups. Because if equity and justice are done, every winner is balanced by a loser, because you cannot magically grow an economy to expand rights and include everyone, even with stable resources and game hasn't changed. It didn't escape my notice that there were murmurings of fleeing the city, prepping for disaster, going full granola and off the grid and kiss this world goodbye soon. Are we in the Matrix? Mom's basement with a kitkat bar? Are all the birds replaced by machines? I've been studying a bit of philosophy and history and seeing threads that just can't be denied, where the struggle for power and privilege is claiming casualties as abortion, addiction, mental illness, homelessness and unemployment. It seems absurd to propose that we're a society enslaved by machines, or Life Liberty & the Pursuit of Happiness aren't as equitable as we'd hoped. But I am taking sick and perverse pleasures in simply hand-decorating Thank-You notes with a fistful of magic markers, and folding up paper and doing other things in meatspace, things that were unthinkable when my hands were welded to the Super NES controls or Type M Keyboard.

ngcc_hk 2y ago
It is part thinking in an “or” manner and pure fashion. Necessary for a group to work but not for a society. It is very hard to find a philosophy and religion that cover its differences within itself. Society even extreme totalitarian cannot be pure but try. But say a Darkroom workshop you cannot easy do miller etc. A republican group is hard to get some social … a middle of the road killed by both sides … How to accommodate and work with difference is a question. Both AI and non-AI … the key is the and part.
- AStonesThrow 2y ago
  Yeah, as a child I felt the effects of a pure community, as I perceived it, but I was convinced that the world was how it looked on radio and TV. So working in tech I realized how bonkers and hypocritical that could be, and began clinging to forgotten traditions and lost arts of the past as if I could recover them or convince others to go full Luddite. Rather than following the threads back and forth to see that it's all a journey in space and time, and I had no idea about 1,000km away, much less 80 years ago in my own state!

noufalibrahim 2y ago

I recently read a book called "Shop Class as Soul Craft" which talks about "the trades" and how it shapes the individual and the nation. I found it really enlightening and highly recommend it. I have a few hobbies that are somewhat physical (whittling, calligraphy) and the shift from purely digital work to those are very relaxing. There's something special about involving more senses that just your eyes with a job.

at_a_remove 2y ago

Before the fall of Techshop, they offered me a setup where I could take all of the classes I wanted in three months. Muhahahahaha. I already had a few advantages going in: a year of drafting in high school, a year of computer drafting in college (mind you the tools were long dead); the ability to think in parametrics; courses in engineering to go with my physics degree; and just being a general geek. Like a maniac, I took all but one class they offered. Probably one of the happiest times of my life, scampering around the shop and churning out trinkets for friends and family, making weird art projects for myself.

Duanemclemore 2y ago

I think the protagonist of this article is as rad as the story is sad. I do understand the desire to frame the narrative as having the most possible impact, but I think the framing ("joy and honor?" "strengthen our nation") is ham-fisted and reductive. It starts to unpack something meaningful though... It IS a huge shame to see wood and machine shop programs disappear. Even if you're not "blue collar" or a "craftsperson" there are massive benefits to learning the processes of working with your hands. At my undergrad architecture school you had to learn to use the shop in your first weeks. If you were familiar with the tools you had to go through the training and get re-certified. If you were never required to use them before, now you were. But power tools are such a time saver for always busy architecture students that you just did it anyway. Even if somehow you managed to avoid it you were still required to make physical models which requires precision, attention to detail, and care around sharp tools. In the 2000's there was a move toward an entirely digital pedagogy, but the pendulum has swung back - in architectural education today we require our students to make physical models. Many professors are less passionate about making still require a final model to "prove" your ideas. But as someone who bangs on endlessly about the lessons to be learned from craft I make my students use them as a constant and iterative process of prototyping and testing ideas. There are some things that absolutely cannot be understood without having to struggle through how to represent them in real materials with real properties, in space, and subjected to gravity. Hand craft makes you plan your actions carefully - even in the small. There is no undo button on a hundred dollar piece of burl walnut. And unless you learn to always be constantly aware of your body and movements (heck, let's intellectualize and call it proprioception) a chop saw can get a little... choppy. Understanding that "let the machine do the work" is simultaneously safety advice AND a philosophical masterstroke is sublime. I never took a shop or vo-tech class, but I grew up around machines and craft. My father was a union machinist making jet engines (and tooling), only retiring from poor health right after hitting his 30 years. His stepdad got him in to the trade, and was a career machinist turned manager. My dad's half brothers were gearheads - one has bought, revived, and sold literally more cars than he can count with nothing more than a vo-tech degree (but his first flip when he was 14). His day job is in machining consumables sales. His home shop would put most of his clients to shame. My dad's other half brother has an Associates in Electrical Engineering and has always been in high demand as an embedded and controls systems programmer. I changed my parents' oil for the first time solo when I was eight (for reference I also wrote my first simple computer program when I was seven). We all grew up working closely with machines. It was just what we did. To this day I'm the one in any situation who winds up fixing anything wonky. I can't explain it beyond "sometimes machines just speak to me." Sounds ridiculous but it's just a process of understanding through exposure how things normally should work and how to spot the things that are out of whack. Once you can understand the cues these complex machine systems want to give you it provides insight into ones you've never worked with before... That's all to say even in the most intellectual modes there are lessons to be learned from understanding how to use (and not use!!!) machines. The death of shop class is unfortunate and short-sighted. Everyone across the political spectrum is guilty, all together for the death or flight of the industries that demanded these classes in the first place. I don't believe there's anything -intrinsically- redemptive about understanding these processes. (Knowing lots of building tradesmen will immediately put lie to the more over-the-top notions in the article.) But the ability to mediate between your brain and the outcomes of physical processes that comes with machine work is exciting (even joyful yes) and filled with lessons far beyond learning to face mill a plate or lathe a precise cylinder, etc.

FinnLobsien 2y ago

I think the fact that essays like this one proliferate is showing a cultural reversion. For the past few decades, there was a push for everyone to get a university degree, driven by a prmise that academic achievement would guarantee a prosperous life: A good salary and a high-status job. We've seen that promise broken. Especially in the US, where student loans are a drag on people's lives. But even in Europe, where people will get degrees in things that are better taught on the job (i.e. graphic design) and still need to struggle getting internships and even badly-paid junior roles. I think it's been known for a long time that you can make money in the crafts, often more than you do in entry-level office jobs. But I think an important part of making the crafts more popular is status. If your dad is a lawyer and your mom is a professor, you might not get encouragement if you want to be a welder, chef or roofer. There needs to be more respect for those professions. They, too should get respect for learning a complex craft and mastering it.

nativeit 2y ago

Go I’ll

djoldman 2y ago

> It’s all part of the sharp decline in vocational education — shop class — in this nation that began in the 1980s as blue collars became unfashionable and the emphasis shifted to a college education. Low supply? > “There’s a huge need for people in CTE fields,” Kaine told me Friday. “The old stigma about CTE, or vocational education, that’s really disappearing and there’s kind of a renaissance going on.” Big demand? This would imply that machinists, etc., are enjoying a big surge in salary. Is this true?

psd1 2y ago
I can only offer anecdata, but good luck getting a plumber to attend in London without paying £100 for them to cross the threshold