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My company allowed us to use it but most developers around me didn't reach out to the correct people to be able to use it. Yes I find it incredibly helpful and

My company allowed us to use it but most developers around me didn't reach out to the correct people to be able to use it. Yes I find it incredibly helpful and try to tell them. But it's only helpful in small contexts, auto completing things, small snippets, generating small functions. Any large scale changes like most of these AI companies try to push them being capable of doing it just falls straight on its face. I've tried many times, and with every new model. It can't do it well enough to trust in any codebase that's bigger than a few 10000 lines of code.

menaerus 2y ago
Did you have to do any preparation steps before you asked from a model to do the large scale change or there were no steps involved? For example, did you simply ask for the change or did you give a model a chance to learn about the codebase. I am genuinely asking, I'm curious because I haven't had a chance to use those models at work.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- lolinder 2y ago
  Not OP, but I've had the same experience, and that's with tools that purport to handle the context for you. And frankly, if you can't automate context, then you don't have an AI tool that can realistically replace a programmer. If I have to manually select which of my 10000 files are relevant to a given query, then I still need to be in the loop and will also likely end up doing almost as much work as I would have to just write the code.
  - menaerus 2y ago
    I see that you deleted your previous response which was unnecessarily snarky while my question was genuine and simple I suppose. > And frankly, if you can't automate context, How about ingesting the whole codebase into the model? I have seen that this is possible with at least one such tool (Devon) and which I believe is using gpt model underneath meaning that other providers could automate this step too. I am curious if that would help in generating more legit large scale changes.
    - lolinder 2y ago
      > I see that you deleted your previous response which was unnecessarily snarky while my question was genuine and simple I suppose. You edited your comment to clarify that you were asking from a place of ignorance as to the tools. Your original comment read as snarky and I responded accordingly, deleting it when I realized that you had changed yours. :) > How about ingesting the whole codebase into the model? I have seen that this is possible with at least one such tool (Devon) and which I believe is using gpt model underneath meaning that other providers could automate this step too. I am curious if that would help in generating more legit large scale changes. It doesn't work. Even the models that claim to have really large context windows get very distracted if you don't selectively pick relevant context. That's why I always talk about useful context window instead of just plain context window—the useful context window is much lower and how much you have depends on the type of text you're feeding it.
      - menaerus 2y ago
        I don't think my comment read as snarky but I was surprised to see the immediate downvote which presumably came from you so I only added the last sentence. This is a stupid way of disagreeing and attempting to shut down the discussion without merits. > It doesn't work. Even the models that claim to have really large context windows get very distracted if you don't selectively pick relevant context. I thought Devon is able to pre-process the whole codebase and which it could take up to a one single day for larger codebases so it must be doing something, e.g. indexing the code? If so, this isn't a context-window specific thing, it's something else and it makes me wonder how that works.
        lolinder 2y ago
        > I don't think my comment read as snarky but I was surprised to see the immediate downvote which presumably came from you so I only added the last sentence. I can't downvote you because you are downthread of me. HN shadow-disables downvotes on all child and grandchild comments. I'm the one who upvoted you to counteract the downvote. :)
- raducu 2y ago
  > For example, did you simply ask for the change or did you give a model a chance to learn about the codebase. I've tried it both with personal projects and work. My personal project/benchmark is a 3d snake game. O3 is by far the best, but even with a couple of hundred lines of code it wrote itself it loses coherence and can't produce changes that involve changing 2 lines of code in a span of 50 lines of code. It either cannot comprehend it needs to touch multiple places of re-writes huge chunks of code and breaks other functionality. At work, it's fine for writing unit tests on straight forward tasks that it most likely has seen examples of before. On domain-specific tasks it's not so good and those tasks usually involve multiple file edits in multiple modules. The denser the logic, the smaller the context where LLMs seem to be coherent. And that's funny, because LLMs seem to deal much better with changing code humans wrote than the code the LLMs wrote themselves. Which makes me wonder -- if we're all replaced by AI, who will write the frameworks and programming languages themselves?
  - menaerus 2y ago
    Thanks but IIUC you're describing a situation where you're simply using a model without giving it a chance to learn from the whole codebase? If so, then I was asking for the opposite where you would ingest the whole codebase and then let the model spit out the code. This in theory should enable the AI model to build a model of your code. > if we're all replaced by AI, who will write the frameworks and programming languages themselves? What for? There's enough programming languages and there's enough of the frameworks. How about using an AI model to maintain and develop existing complex codebases? IMHO if AI models become more sophisticated and are able to solve this, then the answer is pretty clear who will be doing it.
- Jcampuzano2 2y ago
  There are simply no models that can keep in context the amount of info required in enterprise codebases before starting to forget or hallucinate. I've tried to give it relevant context myself (a tedious task in itself to be honest) and even tools that claim to automatically be able to do so fail wonderfully at bigger than toy project size in my experience. The codebase I'm working on day to day at this moment is give or take around 800,000 lines of code and this isn't even close to our largest codebase since its just one client app for our monolith. Even trivial changes require touching many files. It would honestly take any average programmer less time to implement something themselves than trying to convince an LLM to complete it.
  - menaerus 2y ago
    The largest context that I am aware that an open-source model (e.g. qwen) can manage is 1M tokens. This should translate to ~30kLoC. I'd envision that this could in theory work even on large codebases. It certainly depends on the change to be done but I can imagine that ~30kLoC of context is large enough for most of the module-specific changes. Possibly the models that you're using have a much smaller context window? Then again, and I am repeating myself from other comments I made here in the topic, there's also Devon which pre-processes the codebase before you can do anything else. That kinda makes me wonder if current limitations that people observe in using those tools are really representative of what might be the current state of the art.
    - Jcampuzano2 2y ago
      If you don't mind me asking, what size of codebases do you typically work on? As mentioned I've tried using all the available commercial models and none work better than as a helpful autocomplete, test, and utility function generator. I'm sure maybe big players like Meta, OpenAI, MS, etc do have the capability of expanding its context for their own internal projects and training specifically on their code, but most of the rest of us can't feasibly do that since we don't own our own AI moat. Even on my personal projects and smaller internal projects that are small toy projects or utility tools I sometimes struggle to get them to build anything significant. I'm not saying its impossible, but I always find it best at starting things from scratch, and small tools. Maybe its just a sign that AI would be best for microservices. I've never used Devon so I can't speak to it, but I do recall seeing it was also overhyped at best and struggled to do anything it was purported to be able to in demos. Not saying that this is still true. I would be interested in seeing how Devon performs on a large open source project in real-time (since if I recall their demos were not real-time demonstrations) for instance just to evaluate its capabilities.
ragle 2y ago
In a similar situation at my workplace. What models are you using that you feel comfortable trusting it to understand and operate on 10-20k LOC? Using the latest and greatest from OpenAI, I've seen output become unreliable with as little as ~300 LOC on a pretty simple personal project. It will drop features as new ones are added, make obvious mistakes, refuse to follow instructions no matter how many different ways I try to tell it to fix a bug, etc. Tried taking those 300 LOC (generated by o3-mini-high) to cursor and didn't fare much better with the variety of models it offers. I haven't tried OpenAI's APIs yet - I think I read that they accommodate quite a bit more context than the web interface. I do find OpenAI's web-based offerings extremely useful for generating short 50-200 LOC support scripts, generating boilerplate, creating short single-purpose functions, etc. Anything beyond this just hasn't worked all that well for me. Maybe I just need better or different tools though?
- Jcampuzano2 2y ago
  I usually use Claude 3.5 sonnett since its still the one I've had my best luck with for coding tasks. When it comes to 10k LOC codebases, I still don't really trust it with anything. My best luck has been small personal projects where I can sort of trust it to make larger scale changes, but larger scale at a small level in the first place. I've found it best for generating tests, autocompletion, especially if you give context via function names and parameter names I find it can oftentimes complete a whole function I was about to write using the interfaces available to it in files I've visited recently. But besides that I don't really use it for much outside of starting from scratch on a new feature or getting helping me with getting a plan together before starting working on something I may be unfamiliar with. We have access to all models available through copilot including o3 and o1, and access to chatgpt enterprise, and I do find using it via the chat interface nice just for architecting and planning. But I usually do the actual coding with help from autocompletion since it honestly takes longer to try to wrangle it into doing the correct thing than doing it myself with a little bit of its help.
  - ragle 2y ago
    This makes sense. I've mostly been successful doing these sorts of things as well and really appreciate the way it saves me some typing (even in cases where I only keep 40-80% of what it writes, this is still a huge savings). It's when I try to give it a clear, logical specification for a full feature and expect it to write everything that's required to deliver that feature (or the entirety of slightly-more-than-non-trivial personal project) that it falls over. I've experimented trying to get it to do this (for features or personal projects that require maybe 200-400 LOC) mostly just to see what the limitations of the tool are. Interestingly, I hit a wall with GPT-4 on a ~300 LOC personal project that o3-mini-high was able to overcome. So, as you'd expect - the models are getting better. Pushing my use case only a little bit further with a few more enhancements, however, o3-mini-high similarly fell over in precisely the same ways as GPT-4, only a bit worse in the volume and severity of errors. The improvement between GPT-4 and o3-mini-high felt nominally incremental (which I guess is what they're claiming it offers). Just to say: having seen similar small bumps in capability over the last few years of model releases, I tend to agree with other posters that it feels like we'll need something revolutionary to deliver on a lot of the hype being sold at the moment. I don't think current LLM models / approaches are going to cut it.
nyarlathotep_ 2y ago
I've found it very easy to end up "generating" yourself into a corner with a total mess with no clear control flow that ends up more convoluted than need be, by a mile. If you're in mostly (or totally) unfamiliar territory, you can end up in a mess, fast. I was playing around with writing a dead-simple websocket server in go the other evening and it generated some monstrosity with multiple channels (some unused?) and a tangle of goroutines etc. Quite literally copying the example from Gorilla's source tree and making small changes would have gotten me 90% of the way there, instead I ended up with a mostly opaque pile of code that *looks good* from a distance, but is barely functional. (This wasn't a serious exercise, I just wanted to see how "far" I could get with Copilot and minimal intervention)
- Jcampuzano2 2y ago
  Yeah I've found its good for getting something basic started from scratch, but often times if I try to iterate, it starts hallucinating very fast and forgetting what it was even doing after a short while. Newer models have gotten better at this and it takes longer before they start making things gibberish but all of them have their limit. And given the size of lots of enterprise codebases like the ones I'm working in, it just is too far away from being useful enough to replace many programmers in my opinion. I'm convinced the CEO's who are saying AI are replacing programmers are just using it as an excuse to downsize while getting investors happy.
  - fesoliveira 2y ago
    That is also my experience. I use ChatGPT to help me iterate a Godot game project, and it does not take more than a handful of prompts for it to forget or hallucinate about something we previously established. I need to constantly remind it about code it suggested a while ago or things I asked for in the past, or it completely ignores the context and focus just on the latest ask. It is incredibly powerful for getting things started, but as soon as you have a sketch of a complex system going it loses its grasp on the full picture and do not account for the states outside the small asks you make. This is even more evident when you need to correct it about something or request a change after a large prompt. It just throws all the other stuff out the window and hyperfocus only on that one piece of code that needs changing. This has been the case since GPT 3, the even their most recent model (forgot the name, the reasoning one) has this issue.

menaerus 2y ago

Did you have to do any preparation steps before you asked from a model to do the large scale change or there were no steps involved? For example, did you simply ask for the change or did you give a model a chance to learn about the codebase. I am genuinely asking, I'm curious because I haven't had a chance to use those models at work.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
lolinder 2y ago
Not OP, but I've had the same experience, and that's with tools that purport to handle the context for you. And frankly, if you can't automate context, then you don't have an AI tool that can realistically replace a programmer. If I have to manually select which of my 10000 files are relevant to a given query, then I still need to be in the loop and will also likely end up doing almost as much work as I would have to just write the code.
- menaerus 2y ago
  I see that you deleted your previous response which was unnecessarily snarky while my question was genuine and simple I suppose. > And frankly, if you can't automate context, How about ingesting the whole codebase into the model? I have seen that this is possible with at least one such tool (Devon) and which I believe is using gpt model underneath meaning that other providers could automate this step too. I am curious if that would help in generating more legit large scale changes.
  - lolinder 2y ago
    > I see that you deleted your previous response which was unnecessarily snarky while my question was genuine and simple I suppose. You edited your comment to clarify that you were asking from a place of ignorance as to the tools. Your original comment read as snarky and I responded accordingly, deleting it when I realized that you had changed yours. :) > How about ingesting the whole codebase into the model? I have seen that this is possible with at least one such tool (Devon) and which I believe is using gpt model underneath meaning that other providers could automate this step too. I am curious if that would help in generating more legit large scale changes. It doesn't work. Even the models that claim to have really large context windows get very distracted if you don't selectively pick relevant context. That's why I always talk about useful context window instead of just plain context window—the useful context window is much lower and how much you have depends on the type of text you're feeding it.
    - menaerus 2y ago
      I don't think my comment read as snarky but I was surprised to see the immediate downvote which presumably came from you so I only added the last sentence. This is a stupid way of disagreeing and attempting to shut down the discussion without merits. > It doesn't work. Even the models that claim to have really large context windows get very distracted if you don't selectively pick relevant context. I thought Devon is able to pre-process the whole codebase and which it could take up to a one single day for larger codebases so it must be doing something, e.g. indexing the code? If so, this isn't a context-window specific thing, it's something else and it makes me wonder how that works.
      - lolinder 2y ago
        > I don't think my comment read as snarky but I was surprised to see the immediate downvote which presumably came from you so I only added the last sentence. I can't downvote you because you are downthread of me. HN shadow-disables downvotes on all child and grandchild comments. I'm the one who upvoted you to counteract the downvote. :)
raducu 2y ago
> For example, did you simply ask for the change or did you give a model a chance to learn about the codebase. I've tried it both with personal projects and work. My personal project/benchmark is a 3d snake game. O3 is by far the best, but even with a couple of hundred lines of code it wrote itself it loses coherence and can't produce changes that involve changing 2 lines of code in a span of 50 lines of code. It either cannot comprehend it needs to touch multiple places of re-writes huge chunks of code and breaks other functionality. At work, it's fine for writing unit tests on straight forward tasks that it most likely has seen examples of before. On domain-specific tasks it's not so good and those tasks usually involve multiple file edits in multiple modules. The denser the logic, the smaller the context where LLMs seem to be coherent. And that's funny, because LLMs seem to deal much better with changing code humans wrote than the code the LLMs wrote themselves. Which makes me wonder -- if we're all replaced by AI, who will write the frameworks and programming languages themselves?
- menaerus 2y ago
  Thanks but IIUC you're describing a situation where you're simply using a model without giving it a chance to learn from the whole codebase? If so, then I was asking for the opposite where you would ingest the whole codebase and then let the model spit out the code. This in theory should enable the AI model to build a model of your code. > if we're all replaced by AI, who will write the frameworks and programming languages themselves? What for? There's enough programming languages and there's enough of the frameworks. How about using an AI model to maintain and develop existing complex codebases? IMHO if AI models become more sophisticated and are able to solve this, then the answer is pretty clear who will be doing it.
Jcampuzano2 2y ago
There are simply no models that can keep in context the amount of info required in enterprise codebases before starting to forget or hallucinate. I've tried to give it relevant context myself (a tedious task in itself to be honest) and even tools that claim to automatically be able to do so fail wonderfully at bigger than toy project size in my experience. The codebase I'm working on day to day at this moment is give or take around 800,000 lines of code and this isn't even close to our largest codebase since its just one client app for our monolith. Even trivial changes require touching many files. It would honestly take any average programmer less time to implement something themselves than trying to convince an LLM to complete it.
- menaerus 2y ago
  The largest context that I am aware that an open-source model (e.g. qwen) can manage is 1M tokens. This should translate to ~30kLoC. I'd envision that this could in theory work even on large codebases. It certainly depends on the change to be done but I can imagine that ~30kLoC of context is large enough for most of the module-specific changes. Possibly the models that you're using have a much smaller context window? Then again, and I am repeating myself from other comments I made here in the topic, there's also Devon which pre-processes the codebase before you can do anything else. That kinda makes me wonder if current limitations that people observe in using those tools are really representative of what might be the current state of the art.
  - Jcampuzano2 2y ago
    If you don't mind me asking, what size of codebases do you typically work on? As mentioned I've tried using all the available commercial models and none work better than as a helpful autocomplete, test, and utility function generator. I'm sure maybe big players like Meta, OpenAI, MS, etc do have the capability of expanding its context for their own internal projects and training specifically on their code, but most of the rest of us can't feasibly do that since we don't own our own AI moat. Even on my personal projects and smaller internal projects that are small toy projects or utility tools I sometimes struggle to get them to build anything significant. I'm not saying its impossible, but I always find it best at starting things from scratch, and small tools. Maybe its just a sign that AI would be best for microservices. I've never used Devon so I can't speak to it, but I do recall seeing it was also overhyped at best and struggled to do anything it was purported to be able to in demos. Not saying that this is still true. I would be interested in seeing how Devon performs on a large open source project in real-time (since if I recall their demos were not real-time demonstrations) for instance just to evaluate its capabilities.

ragle 2y ago

In a similar situation at my workplace. What models are you using that you feel comfortable trusting it to understand and operate on 10-20k LOC? Using the latest and greatest from OpenAI, I've seen output become unreliable with as little as ~300 LOC on a pretty simple personal project. It will drop features as new ones are added, make obvious mistakes, refuse to follow instructions no matter how many different ways I try to tell it to fix a bug, etc. Tried taking those 300 LOC (generated by o3-mini-high) to cursor and didn't fare much better with the variety of models it offers. I haven't tried OpenAI's APIs yet - I think I read that they accommodate quite a bit more context than the web interface. I do find OpenAI's web-based offerings extremely useful for generating short 50-200 LOC support scripts, generating boilerplate, creating short single-purpose functions, etc. Anything beyond this just hasn't worked all that well for me. Maybe I just need better or different tools though?

Jcampuzano2 2y ago
I usually use Claude 3.5 sonnett since its still the one I've had my best luck with for coding tasks. When it comes to 10k LOC codebases, I still don't really trust it with anything. My best luck has been small personal projects where I can sort of trust it to make larger scale changes, but larger scale at a small level in the first place. I've found it best for generating tests, autocompletion, especially if you give context via function names and parameter names I find it can oftentimes complete a whole function I was about to write using the interfaces available to it in files I've visited recently. But besides that I don't really use it for much outside of starting from scratch on a new feature or getting helping me with getting a plan together before starting working on something I may be unfamiliar with. We have access to all models available through copilot including o3 and o1, and access to chatgpt enterprise, and I do find using it via the chat interface nice just for architecting and planning. But I usually do the actual coding with help from autocompletion since it honestly takes longer to try to wrangle it into doing the correct thing than doing it myself with a little bit of its help.
- ragle 2y ago
  This makes sense. I've mostly been successful doing these sorts of things as well and really appreciate the way it saves me some typing (even in cases where I only keep 40-80% of what it writes, this is still a huge savings). It's when I try to give it a clear, logical specification for a full feature and expect it to write everything that's required to deliver that feature (or the entirety of slightly-more-than-non-trivial personal project) that it falls over. I've experimented trying to get it to do this (for features or personal projects that require maybe 200-400 LOC) mostly just to see what the limitations of the tool are. Interestingly, I hit a wall with GPT-4 on a ~300 LOC personal project that o3-mini-high was able to overcome. So, as you'd expect - the models are getting better. Pushing my use case only a little bit further with a few more enhancements, however, o3-mini-high similarly fell over in precisely the same ways as GPT-4, only a bit worse in the volume and severity of errors. The improvement between GPT-4 and o3-mini-high felt nominally incremental (which I guess is what they're claiming it offers). Just to say: having seen similar small bumps in capability over the last few years of model releases, I tend to agree with other posters that it feels like we'll need something revolutionary to deliver on a lot of the hype being sold at the moment. I don't think current LLM models / approaches are going to cut it.

nyarlathotep_ 2y ago

I've found it very easy to end up "generating" yourself into a corner with a total mess with no clear control flow that ends up more convoluted than need be, by a mile. If you're in mostly (or totally) unfamiliar territory, you can end up in a mess, fast. I was playing around with writing a dead-simple websocket server in go the other evening and it generated some monstrosity with multiple channels (some unused?) and a tangle of goroutines etc. Quite literally copying the example from Gorilla's source tree and making small changes would have gotten me 90% of the way there, instead I ended up with a mostly opaque pile of code that *looks good* from a distance, but is barely functional. (This wasn't a serious exercise, I just wanted to see how "far" I could get with Copilot and minimal intervention)

Jcampuzano2 2y ago
Yeah I've found its good for getting something basic started from scratch, but often times if I try to iterate, it starts hallucinating very fast and forgetting what it was even doing after a short while. Newer models have gotten better at this and it takes longer before they start making things gibberish but all of them have their limit. And given the size of lots of enterprise codebases like the ones I'm working in, it just is too far away from being useful enough to replace many programmers in my opinion. I'm convinced the CEO's who are saying AI are replacing programmers are just using it as an excuse to downsize while getting investors happy.
- fesoliveira 2y ago
  That is also my experience. I use ChatGPT to help me iterate a Godot game project, and it does not take more than a handful of prompts for it to forget or hallucinate about something we previously established. I need to constantly remind it about code it suggested a while ago or things I asked for in the past, or it completely ignores the context and focus just on the latest ask. It is incredibly powerful for getting things started, but as soon as you have a sketch of a complex system going it loses its grasp on the full picture and do not account for the states outside the small asks you make. This is even more evident when you need to correct it about something or request a change after a large prompt. It just throws all the other stuff out the window and hyperfocus only on that one piece of code that needs changing. This has been the case since GPT 3, the even their most recent model (forgot the name, the reasoning one) has this issue.