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> Almost never have a met a person who was equally good at both. Doesn’t that say more around your surroundings? I’ve definitely met people that were equally c

by Aeolun 2y ago

> Almost never have a met a person who was equally good at both. Doesn’t that say more around your surroundings? I’ve definitely met people that were equally competent at both (and more competent than most). A lot of things that are important on the front-end are equally important on the back-end and vice versa. Lets add databases and infra while we are at it. The thing is, you need an actually senior engineer for that. Not some kid right out of college that is somehow called a principal.

runarberg 2y ago
These are totally different skill sets with very different tool chains. Front and backand are as dissimilar as carpentry and cabinetry, or geography and geology, or tailoring and fashion design. On the frontend you need to deliver excellent user experience, deliver accessibility, localization, cater to different—sometimes legacy—browsers. Even if you have a graphic designer, you still need to work with your designers to deliver a good UX. On the backend (I think) you need to deliver optimization, and speed, you need to work within confines of your infrastructure, or work with your infrastructure engineer, you have to design databases and optimize your storage and delivery. You also need to deliver a good API for your frontend devlopers, otherwise they‘ll complain. I‘m a frontend developer so I bet there are tons of stuff backend developers do which I don‘t even know about.
- hansonkd 2y ago
  You articulated it beautifully.
- mattbaker 2y ago
  They’re definitely not totally different, it’s still programming. I’m competent in both and have occupied both roles in my career, but more importantly I’ve worked with people much better than me in both areas :) They were more similar than they were different. I do agree with you that there are skills specific to each layer of the stack and they don’t all cross apply. You definitely don’t get to be good at backend and then magically be a strong frontend engineer! But I think a good backend engineer has a bright future as a good frontend engineer and vice versa, should they choose to pursue a different branch of our discipline.
  - runarberg 2y ago
    Carpentry and cabinetry are both wood working as well, and both professions have somewhat of an overlapping tool set. However the professions are still very different, and being good at one will not make you good at the other. A good carpenter will have to learn a whole new skill set if they want to be a good cabinet maker.
- re-thc 2y ago
  > On the backend (I think) you need to deliver optimization, and speed, you need to work within confines of your infrastructure I hope the same applies for frontend. Let's not have the 20MB bundles (definitely exists) and seconds before a page loads etc. > which I don‘t even know about Security!
  - runarberg 2y ago
    > Security! This is why no-one should hire me as a backend developer ;)
- Boldened15 2y ago
  It really depends on the product (or feature) how much of that expertise is necessary. You need some domain experts for sure who really know the ins and outs of the specific backend and frontend technologies to architect the overall app and build system, and do the hardcore stuff like optimization that you mention. But fullstack engineering is just much more individually productive, if you're updating a settings page why involve multiple engineers and coordinate a handoff, when one engineer can just add the API calls on the backend and add the new toggles to the frontend in a single day? Most software doesn't need to be beautifully polished and completely excellent. Anyway I personally just find it fun, I get to breathe life to a vision end-to-end and tackle a wide variety of problems, and I can deliver quickly. Even if I'll never be (and don't desire to be) a super expert in one technology.
- Aeolun 2y ago
  By your own admission, you are a front-end developer, so why do you feel qualified to make such a broad, sweeping statement? Just because it feels different now does not mean it will once you’ve spent years working with it. Just the idea that ‘optimization’ and ‘speed’ are a back-end thing… It’s a very recent thing that these things you describe are even considered related to front and back-end at all. If you go even 7 years back you’d have needed to consider all these as a “back-end” developer.
  - runarberg 2y ago
    How you optimize for speed, size, and memory are very different between the frontend and the backend. On the frontend the best optimization is quite often to simply let the backend handle it. For example if the the app is too slow because we are pulling in thousands of records and rendering it to the DOM, the correct optimization is to paginate the results. Both frontend and backend devs should know that. However the frontend dev needs to make the pagination a fluid UX for the user, decide between page controls or infinite scroll, implement search on type, set the correct aria-attributes so assistive technology knows this is an incomplete list, etc. The backend dev however needs to optimize the database queries, decide on the type of pagination (keyset vs. limit-offset vs. cursor etc.) and map the response such that the frontend won’t have to do too much work ones received (I guess a frontend dev should be able to do the latter; but it is hard to ask a frontend dev to be an expert in optimizing database queries; or implement proper keyset pagination [although if the UX team decides on infinite scroll that limits the possible pagination types a little]). > If you go even 7 years back you’d have needed to consider all these as a “back-end” developer I have been a frontend dev for almost 15 years, and I very much disagree with you here. I don‘t think that in 2018 you could expect a backend dev to implement responsive layout, deliver accessibility, localization, delivering to different browsers (case in point: Intl.PluralRules became widely available 7 years ago). This may have been true in 2009 when web-apps were fairly simple (often just a series of form submissions), you had a good idea about the screen size of your users, it was hard to mess up accessibility (and yet, many developers did), localization was mostly done on the backend, single page apps were almost unheard of, etc. But not in 2018.
    - 2y ago
xmprt 2y ago
I think a lot of frontend engineers can do backend work and vice versa, but it takes a lot to be very good at both. It's not impossible but also I think it's rare that a backend engineer would voluntarily decide to also become a frontend expert instead of leveling up their backend skills. Fullstack in my experience arises out of a need by companies and startups to cut costs by having a single engineer do both.
- emseetech 2y ago
  A true fullstack developer is a jack of all trades. The adage being "A jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one." A fullstack developer is not two developers in one. A dedicated backend or frontend dev will always overperform a fullstack dev in their side of the stack. But while a good fullstack dev is not useful to a more mature company, they are invaluable to a startup, early stage company or greenfield project where building fast, lean and "good enough" is the target.
  - harrall 2y ago
    I think it depends 100% on the person. I’ve met people who haven’t solved a partial differential equation in 10 years and still remember how to do it whereas some people barely remember the library they used last week and have to keep a mountain of notes. The people in the former camp have a lot of very deep knowledge on a lot of things.
    - emseetech 2y ago
      Someone who can solve a partial differential equation with an hour refresher after ten years but most importantly can identify a situation where a differential equation is useful even if they can't solve it outright is still useful. If they're keeping a zettelkästen level system of notes and can get back up to speed on the specifics quickly but retain conceptual knowledge then I don't see any reason to dismiss them. One issue our industry has is how to identity a great generalist. Broad conceptual thinking is harder to test and interview for than specialized tasks.
  - 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
taurknaut 2y ago
> I’ve definitely met people that were equally competent at both This is somewhat silly because there's no good way to compare backend and frontend abilities. And why would you! A full stack engineer indicates willingness to tackle both sides, no equivalent competancy.
taurknaut 2y ago
> I’ve definitely met people that were equally competent at both Tbh this is a meaningless statement. How on earth is any sane person supposed to compare competencies? I both describe myself as full-stack and associate with other people who do the same. There isn't a single person among us who would try to pitch ourselves as equally competent on the front end and the back end. Who would do this? Why? To what end? This simply ignores why people actually use the term "full stack": to indicate willingness to take on work, not competency.

by Aeolun 2y ago

runarberg 2y ago

These are totally different skill sets with very different tool chains. Front and backand are as dissimilar as carpentry and cabinetry, or geography and geology, or tailoring and fashion design. On the frontend you need to deliver excellent user experience, deliver accessibility, localization, cater to different—sometimes legacy—browsers. Even if you have a graphic designer, you still need to work with your designers to deliver a good UX. On the backend (I think) you need to deliver optimization, and speed, you need to work within confines of your infrastructure, or work with your infrastructure engineer, you have to design databases and optimize your storage and delivery. You also need to deliver a good API for your frontend devlopers, otherwise they‘ll complain. I‘m a frontend developer so I bet there are tons of stuff backend developers do which I don‘t even know about.

hansonkd 2y ago
You articulated it beautifully.
mattbaker 2y ago
They’re definitely not totally different, it’s still programming. I’m competent in both and have occupied both roles in my career, but more importantly I’ve worked with people much better than me in both areas :) They were more similar than they were different. I do agree with you that there are skills specific to each layer of the stack and they don’t all cross apply. You definitely don’t get to be good at backend and then magically be a strong frontend engineer! But I think a good backend engineer has a bright future as a good frontend engineer and vice versa, should they choose to pursue a different branch of our discipline.
- runarberg 2y ago
  Carpentry and cabinetry are both wood working as well, and both professions have somewhat of an overlapping tool set. However the professions are still very different, and being good at one will not make you good at the other. A good carpenter will have to learn a whole new skill set if they want to be a good cabinet maker.
re-thc 2y ago
> On the backend (I think) you need to deliver optimization, and speed, you need to work within confines of your infrastructure I hope the same applies for frontend. Let's not have the 20MB bundles (definitely exists) and seconds before a page loads etc. > which I don‘t even know about Security!
- runarberg 2y ago
  > Security! This is why no-one should hire me as a backend developer ;)
Boldened15 2y ago
It really depends on the product (or feature) how much of that expertise is necessary. You need some domain experts for sure who really know the ins and outs of the specific backend and frontend technologies to architect the overall app and build system, and do the hardcore stuff like optimization that you mention. But fullstack engineering is just much more individually productive, if you're updating a settings page why involve multiple engineers and coordinate a handoff, when one engineer can just add the API calls on the backend and add the new toggles to the frontend in a single day? Most software doesn't need to be beautifully polished and completely excellent. Anyway I personally just find it fun, I get to breathe life to a vision end-to-end and tackle a wide variety of problems, and I can deliver quickly. Even if I'll never be (and don't desire to be) a super expert in one technology.
Aeolun 2y ago
By your own admission, you are a front-end developer, so why do you feel qualified to make such a broad, sweeping statement? Just because it feels different now does not mean it will once you’ve spent years working with it. Just the idea that ‘optimization’ and ‘speed’ are a back-end thing… It’s a very recent thing that these things you describe are even considered related to front and back-end at all. If you go even 7 years back you’d have needed to consider all these as a “back-end” developer.
- runarberg 2y ago
  How you optimize for speed, size, and memory are very different between the frontend and the backend. On the frontend the best optimization is quite often to simply let the backend handle it. For example if the the app is too slow because we are pulling in thousands of records and rendering it to the DOM, the correct optimization is to paginate the results. Both frontend and backend devs should know that. However the frontend dev needs to make the pagination a fluid UX for the user, decide between page controls or infinite scroll, implement search on type, set the correct aria-attributes so assistive technology knows this is an incomplete list, etc. The backend dev however needs to optimize the database queries, decide on the type of pagination (keyset vs. limit-offset vs. cursor etc.) and map the response such that the frontend won’t have to do too much work ones received (I guess a frontend dev should be able to do the latter; but it is hard to ask a frontend dev to be an expert in optimizing database queries; or implement proper keyset pagination [although if the UX team decides on infinite scroll that limits the possible pagination types a little]). > If you go even 7 years back you’d have needed to consider all these as a “back-end” developer I have been a frontend dev for almost 15 years, and I very much disagree with you here. I don‘t think that in 2018 you could expect a backend dev to implement responsive layout, deliver accessibility, localization, delivering to different browsers (case in point: Intl.PluralRules became widely available 7 years ago). This may have been true in 2009 when web-apps were fairly simple (often just a series of form submissions), you had a good idea about the screen size of your users, it was hard to mess up accessibility (and yet, many developers did), localization was mostly done on the backend, single page apps were almost unheard of, etc. But not in 2018.
  - 2y ago

xmprt 2y ago

I think a lot of frontend engineers can do backend work and vice versa, but it takes a lot to be very good at both. It's not impossible but also I think it's rare that a backend engineer would voluntarily decide to also become a frontend expert instead of leveling up their backend skills. Fullstack in my experience arises out of a need by companies and startups to cut costs by having a single engineer do both.

emseetech 2y ago
A true fullstack developer is a jack of all trades. The adage being "A jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one." A fullstack developer is not two developers in one. A dedicated backend or frontend dev will always overperform a fullstack dev in their side of the stack. But while a good fullstack dev is not useful to a more mature company, they are invaluable to a startup, early stage company or greenfield project where building fast, lean and "good enough" is the target.
- harrall 2y ago
  I think it depends 100% on the person. I’ve met people who haven’t solved a partial differential equation in 10 years and still remember how to do it whereas some people barely remember the library they used last week and have to keep a mountain of notes. The people in the former camp have a lot of very deep knowledge on a lot of things.
  - emseetech 2y ago
    Someone who can solve a partial differential equation with an hour refresher after ten years but most importantly can identify a situation where a differential equation is useful even if they can't solve it outright is still useful. If they're keeping a zettelkästen level system of notes and can get back up to speed on the specifics quickly but retain conceptual knowledge then I don't see any reason to dismiss them. One issue our industry has is how to identity a great generalist. Broad conceptual thinking is harder to test and interview for than specialized tasks.
- 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

taurknaut 2y ago

> I’ve definitely met people that were equally competent at both This is somewhat silly because there's no good way to compare backend and frontend abilities. And why would you! A full stack engineer indicates willingness to tackle both sides, no equivalent competancy.

taurknaut 2y ago

> I’ve definitely met people that were equally competent at both Tbh this is a meaningless statement. How on earth is any sane person supposed to compare competencies? I both describe myself as full-stack and associate with other people who do the same. There isn't a single person among us who would try to pitch ourselves as equally competent on the front end and the back end. Who would do this? Why? To what end? This simply ignores why people actually use the term "full stack": to indicate willingness to take on work, not competency.