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the # people that find comfy fulfilling jobs is less than 5% and are all nepotism right time right place in a market that doesnt need to be efficient. we need

the # people that find comfy fulfilling jobs is less than 5% and are all nepotism right time right place in a market that doesnt need to be efficient. we need to create proper regulation that requires software engineers to actually be engineers. no more collapsing bridges and finger pointing. thats the historically proven and optimal way to put engineering back on top.

trod1234 2y ago
> and are all nepotism Right time right place in a market Are you absolutely sure its this way and not the fact that there isn't a real market because the market was collapsed to socialism through money printing, collusion, and corruption. You really can't have economic calculation when the entities involved all cooperate regardless of profit, which naturally happens when debt financing decouples these needs. Other distortions to increase said profits in said environments such as artificially constraining supply to raise price level also create chaotic whipsaws which first strain, then destroy distribution networks, just like Atari did to video games back in the 80s, where retailers lost so much they refused to even place Nintendo on their shelves without a guarantee. The historic record is fairly light with regards to fiat money printing and actual collapses that have occurred. We know its happened, but the chaos it produces seems to remove all the important details leading up to crisis. Also, there has always been a non-fiat currency to pivot to up until now, where the underpinning global currency tied to all other currencies is about to fail. Its unprecedented in scope, and risk because failure of a currency translated to failure of production, and modern production is needed to feed half the people currently alive today. Malthus law of population and its regressive states (reversion), seem to indicate that when it fails completely, most will starve. Few seem to recognize the debt trap they find themselves placed in foolishly by previous generations who have failed to cede power (hanging on to it to their death bed), or respect the rational principles that guided their fore-bearers. We live in an age stark with evil and evil naturally begets destruction through complacency and sloth which are two sides of the same coin. If you ask yourself, is your life better, and do you have more options today than 10 years ago, and 10 years before that? Most will say, no, and no. Plot the trend and you'll see we move ever closer to ruin, goose-stepping forward, with the majority of people burning the bridges as they go. The dynamics are there to be seen for those wise enough to pay attention.
- shove 2y ago
  “… the market was collapsed to socialism …” Whaaaat?!
  - trod1234 2y ago
    To clarify, not just any socialism, non-market socialism; the kind that always fails given sufficient time (none longer than 50 years). Markets require adversarial decisionmaking, and when few participants exist they always coordinate, even opposite profit because they receive profit from bailouts and monopoly distortions. Coordinated moves regardless of cost, cannot perform economic calculation, which is why shifting inventory around at any level doesn't solve core problems under socialism. Mises covers this quite well. Runaway money printing inevitably runs afoul of the two participants requirements to continue the economic cycle, and those requirements are in purchasing power. The producers will cease production when they can no longer make a profit, and that happens when the stable store of value of their assets is undermined (chaotically). The factor markets will cease having children when they can no longer afford to support a wife and three kids (sufficient to get one to the age where they have children). Our birthrate is at 1.44 at last check, significantly below replacement. The state apparatus who receives money directly from a money printer can continue production, but not efficiently, and certainly not indefinitely, and they typically engage in constraining the supply artificially to raise price level, which distorts the economies chaotically with a whipsaw effect as well. All in all, it runs into the socialist calculation problem, and that chaos destroys the distribution network. Without that network, it all fails, including food getting to your local grocery store. Been to the store lately? Seen all those empty shelves? See the price of eggs up at the same price as meat. Its all going to come crashing down in the next few years. The former producer side is fairly immediate in their leaving the market (sieving through merger, acquisition, bankruptcy etc), the latter consumer side may take up to 40 years. We are in year 35 of having dipped underneath the required compensation to raise children, in purchasing power. Take your pick.
    - shove 2y ago
      Your comments here and on other threads indicate that you have confused “socialism” with “state capitalism”. An unfortunate and increasingly common mistake.
giraffe_lady 2y ago
I used to be strong proponent of this but after learning about the actual professional ethical constraints "real" engineers operate under I have changed my mind. Engineers are forbidden to mislead their clients, and from taking shortcuts and cost-cutting measures that are known to increase certain risks of unanticipated harm. But they may still harm! If "real" engineering ethics allow them to make landmines and cruise missiles, it certainly allows us to make spyware and racist sentencing algorithms. It would help with data breaches I'm pretty sure, but therac-25 and 737-MAX type incidents are already pretty rare. Most of the damage caused by software is intentional. Whatever we need here we can't copy from traditional engineering, because they don't have it either.
- devwastaken 2y ago
  engineers being liable and doing what they say is the proper outcome. an engineer can choose to not work on projects. tech needs to face rule of law and be liable for damages.
scarface_74 2y ago
Do some research about Boeing over the last decade. They are full of “real Engineers”
fcarraldo 2y ago
> the # people that find comfy fulfilling jobs is less than 5% and are all nepotism Can you cite any source that might back this up?
pjmlp 2y ago
In many countries, you are not legally allowed to call yourself Software Engineer willy-nilly.

trod1234 2y ago

> and are all nepotism Right time right place in a market Are you absolutely sure its this way and not the fact that there isn't a real market because the market was collapsed to socialism through money printing, collusion, and corruption. You really can't have economic calculation when the entities involved all cooperate regardless of profit, which naturally happens when debt financing decouples these needs. Other distortions to increase said profits in said environments such as artificially constraining supply to raise price level also create chaotic whipsaws which first strain, then destroy distribution networks, just like Atari did to video games back in the 80s, where retailers lost so much they refused to even place Nintendo on their shelves without a guarantee. The historic record is fairly light with regards to fiat money printing and actual collapses that have occurred. We know its happened, but the chaos it produces seems to remove all the important details leading up to crisis. Also, there has always been a non-fiat currency to pivot to up until now, where the underpinning global currency tied to all other currencies is about to fail. Its unprecedented in scope, and risk because failure of a currency translated to failure of production, and modern production is needed to feed half the people currently alive today. Malthus law of population and its regressive states (reversion), seem to indicate that when it fails completely, most will starve. Few seem to recognize the debt trap they find themselves placed in foolishly by previous generations who have failed to cede power (hanging on to it to their death bed), or respect the rational principles that guided their fore-bearers. We live in an age stark with evil and evil naturally begets destruction through complacency and sloth which are two sides of the same coin. If you ask yourself, is your life better, and do you have more options today than 10 years ago, and 10 years before that? Most will say, no, and no. Plot the trend and you'll see we move ever closer to ruin, goose-stepping forward, with the majority of people burning the bridges as they go. The dynamics are there to be seen for those wise enough to pay attention.

shove 2y ago
“… the market was collapsed to socialism …” Whaaaat?!
- trod1234 2y ago
  To clarify, not just any socialism, non-market socialism; the kind that always fails given sufficient time (none longer than 50 years). Markets require adversarial decisionmaking, and when few participants exist they always coordinate, even opposite profit because they receive profit from bailouts and monopoly distortions. Coordinated moves regardless of cost, cannot perform economic calculation, which is why shifting inventory around at any level doesn't solve core problems under socialism. Mises covers this quite well. Runaway money printing inevitably runs afoul of the two participants requirements to continue the economic cycle, and those requirements are in purchasing power. The producers will cease production when they can no longer make a profit, and that happens when the stable store of value of their assets is undermined (chaotically). The factor markets will cease having children when they can no longer afford to support a wife and three kids (sufficient to get one to the age where they have children). Our birthrate is at 1.44 at last check, significantly below replacement. The state apparatus who receives money directly from a money printer can continue production, but not efficiently, and certainly not indefinitely, and they typically engage in constraining the supply artificially to raise price level, which distorts the economies chaotically with a whipsaw effect as well. All in all, it runs into the socialist calculation problem, and that chaos destroys the distribution network. Without that network, it all fails, including food getting to your local grocery store. Been to the store lately? Seen all those empty shelves? See the price of eggs up at the same price as meat. Its all going to come crashing down in the next few years. The former producer side is fairly immediate in their leaving the market (sieving through merger, acquisition, bankruptcy etc), the latter consumer side may take up to 40 years. We are in year 35 of having dipped underneath the required compensation to raise children, in purchasing power. Take your pick.
  - shove 2y ago
    Your comments here and on other threads indicate that you have confused “socialism” with “state capitalism”. An unfortunate and increasingly common mistake.

giraffe_lady 2y ago

I used to be strong proponent of this but after learning about the actual professional ethical constraints "real" engineers operate under I have changed my mind. Engineers are forbidden to mislead their clients, and from taking shortcuts and cost-cutting measures that are known to increase certain risks of unanticipated harm. But they may still harm! If "real" engineering ethics allow them to make landmines and cruise missiles, it certainly allows us to make spyware and racist sentencing algorithms. It would help with data breaches I'm pretty sure, but therac-25 and 737-MAX type incidents are already pretty rare. Most of the damage caused by software is intentional. Whatever we need here we can't copy from traditional engineering, because they don't have it either.

devwastaken 2y ago
engineers being liable and doing what they say is the proper outcome. an engineer can choose to not work on projects. tech needs to face rule of law and be liable for damages.

scarface_74 2y ago

Do some research about Boeing over the last decade. They are full of “real Engineers”

fcarraldo 2y ago

> the # people that find comfy fulfilling jobs is less than 5% and are all nepotism Can you cite any source that might back this up?

pjmlp 2y ago

In many countries, you are not legally allowed to call yourself Software Engineer willy-nilly.