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Maybe its just a function of growing up during the transition of physical software to advert/subscription software, but i love the advertising model. What goog

Maybe its just a function of growing up during the transition of physical software to advert/subscription software, but i love the advertising model. What google has done for the web; youtube, maps, gmail/gsuite, chromium/v8 are fantastic products that cost huge sums to develop, and the world gets to use them for free. Thats amazing. Its a huge gift to society that the a fantastic knowledge and productivity suite is available to everyone. I have a lot more of a problem with infinite scroll & algorithmic content delivery than advertising.

yetihehe 2y ago
> Its a huge gift to society that the a fantastic knowledge and productivity suite is available to everyone. It's not a gift. It's a transaction, but you pay with your attention and data about yourself so that someone can more effectively try to sell you something you might not really need. Upside: people who don't have money can now participate in knowledge pool. Downside: thousands of other people try to make sure that those people don't ever have more money because they spend them on marketers that were the best in marketing.
pclmulqdq 2y ago
Do you use an ad blocker? If so, you're not supporting the ecosystem you love. Or do you love it because it's so easy to have all of the upside while pushing the costs onto other people?
bilekas 2y ago
> Maybe its just a function of growing up during the transition of physical software to advert/subscription software, but I love the advertising model. I also have been around a while, but I am the opposite opinion as yourself, mainly because I really appreciate actually owning something that I don't need to pay to continue to consume like Media which is a good example. > I have a lot more of a problem with infinite scroll & algorithmic content delivery than advertising This is basically the same thing as the advertising models that are being used except the advertising is a bit more nefarious (IMO) into manipulating you into feeling like you have to buy something, gamble a little bit or whatever it is just to remove money from your wallet to them. The products you mention are obviously great for society, this isn't for debate I think, but it's how these services are monetized, which they should be 100% but there is a disgusting extreme in play these days to my eyes. In the same service based ecconomy, I am okay with paying for Kagi for example, pay as you use without (hopefully) my data being sold to the highest bidder. There are better models possible then the one we have, I think that's somethign that should be explored.
canadaduane 2y ago
These are good. But I think there is a tipping point where the asymmetry of power (millions invested in databases, information gathering, algorithm development, etc.) pushes against the tiny power an individual has. There is no agent on the individual's side that has power (time, money, smarts) enough to counter the onslaught. It's a problem of degrees.
- SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
  What’s wrong with that? Certainly advertisers can do bad or irresponsible things with personal data, but the mere fact that they’re shaping preferences doesn’t seem like a huge problem. It’s not like our pre-advertising preferences are an edenic blank slate.
oneeyedpigeon 2y ago
> I have a lot more of a problem with infinite scroll & algorithmic content delivery than advertising. When it's done well, I agree with this sentiment, but the vast, vast majority of online advertising is done terribly. It almost always has a negative impact on my use of the hosting site.
yapyap 2y ago
1. Advertising inadvertently drives the want for an infinite scroll and a better algorithm for content delivery to keep you scrolling for longer. You being on the app for longer due to infini-scroll and ‘the algorithm’ = seeing more advertisements = more money for the platforms. If you paid a monthly fee to use the app(1) the platform wouldn’t be incentivized to keep you on an infinite scroll cause they already got the money, all they would be incentivized to do is makw sure you are as satisfied with the experience as possible so you keep paying them. 2. “What google has done for the web; youtube, maps, gmail/gsuite, chromium/v8 are fantastic products that cost huge sums to develop, and the world gets to use them for free” That is a financially “free”, sure. But the world doesn’t get to use it for free at all really, we pay by giving google our statistics and my god, first of all the amount of statistics collected would surprise most people, yeah you hear about “big businesses are collecting your data” but to see what data they can collect through like a webrequest can actually make it feel real. The world does not get any Google product for free, not in the whole sense of the word at least. To sum it up best I’d say Google and businesses like it have you get used to a (financially) free product, to such an extent that you integrate it as one of the base pillars of your online existence and then they enshittify that ‘free’ version to such an extent that they kind of threaten to pull that pillar away unless you pay. (1.) which I also don’t love, cause subscription models also feel like you don’t own anything but in the case of a YouTube it’s more sensible than buying individual videos if ads weren’t a thing.
hasbot 2y ago
It's very similar to sponsoring a TV show: instead of charging for the TV show; all costs are paid for by the advertisers and the show is shown free.

yetihehe 2y ago

> Its a huge gift to society that the a fantastic knowledge and productivity suite is available to everyone. It's not a gift. It's a transaction, but you pay with your attention and data about yourself so that someone can more effectively try to sell you something you might not really need. Upside: people who don't have money can now participate in knowledge pool. Downside: thousands of other people try to make sure that those people don't ever have more money because they spend them on marketers that were the best in marketing.

pclmulqdq 2y ago

Do you use an ad blocker? If so, you're not supporting the ecosystem you love. Or do you love it because it's so easy to have all of the upside while pushing the costs onto other people?

bilekas 2y ago

> Maybe its just a function of growing up during the transition of physical software to advert/subscription software, but I love the advertising model. I also have been around a while, but I am the opposite opinion as yourself, mainly because I really appreciate actually owning something that I don't need to pay to continue to consume like Media which is a good example. > I have a lot more of a problem with infinite scroll & algorithmic content delivery than advertising This is basically the same thing as the advertising models that are being used except the advertising is a bit more nefarious (IMO) into manipulating you into feeling like you have to buy something, gamble a little bit or whatever it is just to remove money from your wallet to them. The products you mention are obviously great for society, this isn't for debate I think, but it's how these services are monetized, which they should be 100% but there is a disgusting extreme in play these days to my eyes. In the same service based ecconomy, I am okay with paying for Kagi for example, pay as you use without (hopefully) my data being sold to the highest bidder. There are better models possible then the one we have, I think that's somethign that should be explored.

canadaduane 2y ago

These are good. But I think there is a tipping point where the asymmetry of power (millions invested in databases, information gathering, algorithm development, etc.) pushes against the tiny power an individual has. There is no agent on the individual's side that has power (time, money, smarts) enough to counter the onslaught. It's a problem of degrees.

SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
What’s wrong with that? Certainly advertisers can do bad or irresponsible things with personal data, but the mere fact that they’re shaping preferences doesn’t seem like a huge problem. It’s not like our pre-advertising preferences are an edenic blank slate.

oneeyedpigeon 2y ago

> I have a lot more of a problem with infinite scroll & algorithmic content delivery than advertising. When it's done well, I agree with this sentiment, but the vast, vast majority of online advertising is done terribly. It almost always has a negative impact on my use of the hosting site.

yapyap 2y ago

1. Advertising inadvertently drives the want for an infinite scroll and a better algorithm for content delivery to keep you scrolling for longer. You being on the app for longer due to infini-scroll and ‘the algorithm’ = seeing more advertisements = more money for the platforms. If you paid a monthly fee to use the app(1) the platform wouldn’t be incentivized to keep you on an infinite scroll cause they already got the money, all they would be incentivized to do is makw sure you are as satisfied with the experience as possible so you keep paying them. 2. “What google has done for the web; youtube, maps, gmail/gsuite, chromium/v8 are fantastic products that cost huge sums to develop, and the world gets to use them for free” That is a financially “free”, sure. But the world doesn’t get to use it for free at all really, we pay by giving google our statistics and my god, first of all the amount of statistics collected would surprise most people, yeah you hear about “big businesses are collecting your data” but to see what data they can collect through like a webrequest can actually make it feel real. The world does not get any Google product for free, not in the whole sense of the word at least. To sum it up best I’d say Google and businesses like it have you get used to a (financially) free product, to such an extent that you integrate it as one of the base pillars of your online existence and then they enshittify that ‘free’ version to such an extent that they kind of threaten to pull that pillar away unless you pay. (1.) which I also don’t love, cause subscription models also feel like you don’t own anything but in the case of a YouTube it’s more sensible than buying individual videos if ads weren’t a thing.

hasbot 2y ago

It's very similar to sponsoring a TV show: instead of charging for the TV show; all costs are paid for by the advertisers and the show is shown free.