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Agreed, the quality of the product should speak for itself. We've got people saying they're unreliable, and we've got people saying they're reliable, and that's

Agreed, the quality of the product should speak for itself. We've got people saying they're unreliable, and we've got people saying they're reliable, and that's true for literally every car manufacturer on the planet, so this doesn't tell us much. Anecdotal stuff aside, there's studies done on these things, thankfully, and Tesla consistently ranks poorly. See for example this one (this is just the first one that popped up when I googled "car reliability study", it's probably better if you find your own sources): https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/who-makes-the-most-reliable-cars-a7824554938/ https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-s...

mschild 2y ago
Adding another source: TÜV Report 2025 (in German) In Germany you have to get your car checked every 24 months for its road worthiness (think general doctor checkup but for your car). If it fails, you are not allowed to use it until it's fixed. At the first general inspection after purchase 2-3 years out, 14.2% of all checked Tesla Model 3s had issues. Comparing that to other models that are on record in sufficient numbers, its a high rate of failure. VW ID.3, for example, had 5%. https://www.adac.de/news/tuev-report-2025/ https://www.adac.de/news/tuev-report-2025/
- starbugs 2y ago
  > https://www.adac.de/news/tuev-report-2025/ https://www.adac.de/news/tuev-report-2025/ This is about what cars made it through the German TÜV. Not about reliability.
  - wesselbindt 2y ago
    To me it seems like a perfectly sound proxy measure of reliability. Why do you believe otherwise?
    - starbugs 2y ago
      Have you ever brought a car through the German TÜV?
      - wesselbindt 2y ago
        I haven't. Could we fast forward to the part where you explain why you think it's not a good proxy measure?
        starbugs 2y ago
        If you translate the article and read it, you will find that there are a lot of reported issues with the headlights. It is hard to find exact information on the actual issue in detail, but I'd suspect it's about the calibration of the headlights in most cases. That's a minor issue and calling it a reliability problem doesn't seem accurate. Also quite conveniently, they don't really mention that Teslas have significantly more mileage on average than other electric cars when they have their first TÜV visit. It's common for the German press to blow things like these out of proportion when they don't like a brand. Also there's things like these which are way too common for my taste: https://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/adac-skandal-gelber-engel-schon-seit-jahren-manipuliert-a-953944.html https://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/adac-skandal-gelber-enge... I think the German car industry and the press around it as a whole have a serious corruption issue. I am sure HN has made up their mind already and this discussion wouldn't have an effect on your opinion anyway, so please feel free to continue downvoting.
        zoover2020 2y ago
        Thanks for bringing this to light. The days of objective discussions are over unfortunately, even on HN. Too much political stuff.
        mschild 2y ago
        > you will find that there are a lot of reported issues with the headlights. Correct, but you just happen to leave out the mentioned issues with the brakes and axles as clearly stated in the article. > In addition to defects in the brakes and axles, the Tesla also has a particularly high number of lighting defects. If you want to point out issues, which is absolutely fair, please don't cherry-pick. > but I'd suspect it's about the calibration of the headlights in most cases So its a guess on your part. Lightning defects can mean any number of things. >Defects in the lighting such as defective bulbs, broken or blind lenses or incorrect adjustment are significant defects. Incorrect adjustments are part of it, yes, but if that's the case I would argue something with the construction of Tesla's lamps is not done correctly. Other manufacturers seem to have fewer problems. That or Tesla owners don't service their cars often enough. Regardless, it guessing on our part unless we have access to detailed data. ----- You linked to an article that is over 10 years old. Besides that, ADAC, which that particular piece is about, is not the company responsible for doing the TÜV inspection, nor is it the one to actually publish the report. > I think the German car industry and the press around it as a whole have a serious corruption issue. The car industry I can agree on. The emissions scandal is a particularly shady example. As for the press, I'd take a more neutral stance. There are absolutely a large amount of low quality news papers and magazines pumping out hot garbage. Others do offer much higher quality writing and research.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  It seems that they fail the TUV for two reasons: bad suspensions and rusted brakes. The first one is on Tesla, but the second one has to do with regenerative braking vs real braking. You are supposed to slam your brakes one or two times a year so they don't get rusty, but a lot of users aren't following this and can go a long time without using their brakes because regen braking is so convenient.
  - kalleboo 2y ago
    PHEVs will run their gas engines after they have not been used in a while in order to keep the gas in them from going stale, it seems odd that the braking system on EVs doesn't do the same for the brakes
    - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
      It makes total sense: consumers don't like it when EVs automatically slam on the brakes to get rid of rust :). Unfortunately, you can't generate enough friction to do this without the car moving, which is why it has to be done manually.
      - Sammi 2y ago
        The car doesn't have to SLAM the brakes. It just has to use them a bit like a regular car.
        seanmcdirmid 2y ago
        If the user just uses regen braking, they are never hitting their brake when they are moving. You would have to work it somehow into the regen, but the stopping curves are completely different for the two, so you would probably wind up surprising the driver if you decided to arbitrarily engage the brake rather than use regen. Your assumption is that regen and braking have the same behavior and are interchangeable, but I don't think that's the case beyond both of them being used to stop.
brandonagr2 2y ago
And yet Tesla has industry leading brand loyalty, what do you think is a better predictor, an opaque number computed by Consumer Reports from an unknown formula that combines feedback about non reliability items from users who bother to respond to consumer reports questions, or what 87% of consumers decide after experiencing a Tesla? https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/tesla-leads-with-unmatched-brand-loyalty-in-the-us/ https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/tesla-leads-with-unmatched-...
- wesselbindt 2y ago
  The consumer report one. Also I feel like the source you link might be a teeny tiny bit biased.
- manmal 2y ago
  Is this still true? Recent numbers from EU countries didn’t look good for Tesla. Only 11% of Swedes approve of Tesla now.

mschild 2y ago

Adding another source: TÜV Report 2025 (in German) In Germany you have to get your car checked every 24 months for its road worthiness (think general doctor checkup but for your car). If it fails, you are not allowed to use it until it's fixed. At the first general inspection after purchase 2-3 years out, 14.2% of all checked Tesla Model 3s had issues. Comparing that to other models that are on record in sufficient numbers, its a high rate of failure. VW ID.3, for example, had 5%. https://www.adac.de/news/tuev-report-2025/ https://www.adac.de/news/tuev-report-2025/

starbugs 2y ago
> https://www.adac.de/news/tuev-report-2025/ https://www.adac.de/news/tuev-report-2025/ This is about what cars made it through the German TÜV. Not about reliability.
- wesselbindt 2y ago
  To me it seems like a perfectly sound proxy measure of reliability. Why do you believe otherwise?
  - starbugs 2y ago
    Have you ever brought a car through the German TÜV?
    - wesselbindt 2y ago
      I haven't. Could we fast forward to the part where you explain why you think it's not a good proxy measure?
      - starbugs 2y ago
        If you translate the article and read it, you will find that there are a lot of reported issues with the headlights. It is hard to find exact information on the actual issue in detail, but I'd suspect it's about the calibration of the headlights in most cases. That's a minor issue and calling it a reliability problem doesn't seem accurate. Also quite conveniently, they don't really mention that Teslas have significantly more mileage on average than other electric cars when they have their first TÜV visit. It's common for the German press to blow things like these out of proportion when they don't like a brand. Also there's things like these which are way too common for my taste: https://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/adac-skandal-gelber-engel-schon-seit-jahren-manipuliert-a-953944.html https://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/adac-skandal-gelber-enge... I think the German car industry and the press around it as a whole have a serious corruption issue. I am sure HN has made up their mind already and this discussion wouldn't have an effect on your opinion anyway, so please feel free to continue downvoting.
        zoover2020 2y ago
        Thanks for bringing this to light. The days of objective discussions are over unfortunately, even on HN. Too much political stuff.
        mschild 2y ago
        > you will find that there are a lot of reported issues with the headlights. Correct, but you just happen to leave out the mentioned issues with the brakes and axles as clearly stated in the article. > In addition to defects in the brakes and axles, the Tesla also has a particularly high number of lighting defects. If you want to point out issues, which is absolutely fair, please don't cherry-pick. > but I'd suspect it's about the calibration of the headlights in most cases So its a guess on your part. Lightning defects can mean any number of things. >Defects in the lighting such as defective bulbs, broken or blind lenses or incorrect adjustment are significant defects. Incorrect adjustments are part of it, yes, but if that's the case I would argue something with the construction of Tesla's lamps is not done correctly. Other manufacturers seem to have fewer problems. That or Tesla owners don't service their cars often enough. Regardless, it guessing on our part unless we have access to detailed data. ----- You linked to an article that is over 10 years old. Besides that, ADAC, which that particular piece is about, is not the company responsible for doing the TÜV inspection, nor is it the one to actually publish the report. > I think the German car industry and the press around it as a whole have a serious corruption issue. The car industry I can agree on. The emissions scandal is a particularly shady example. As for the press, I'd take a more neutral stance. There are absolutely a large amount of low quality news papers and magazines pumping out hot garbage. Others do offer much higher quality writing and research.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
seanmcdirmid 2y ago
It seems that they fail the TUV for two reasons: bad suspensions and rusted brakes. The first one is on Tesla, but the second one has to do with regenerative braking vs real braking. You are supposed to slam your brakes one or two times a year so they don't get rusty, but a lot of users aren't following this and can go a long time without using their brakes because regen braking is so convenient.
- kalleboo 2y ago
  PHEVs will run their gas engines after they have not been used in a while in order to keep the gas in them from going stale, it seems odd that the braking system on EVs doesn't do the same for the brakes
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    It makes total sense: consumers don't like it when EVs automatically slam on the brakes to get rid of rust :). Unfortunately, you can't generate enough friction to do this without the car moving, which is why it has to be done manually.
    - Sammi 2y ago
      The car doesn't have to SLAM the brakes. It just has to use them a bit like a regular car.
      - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
        If the user just uses regen braking, they are never hitting their brake when they are moving. You would have to work it somehow into the regen, but the stopping curves are completely different for the two, so you would probably wind up surprising the driver if you decided to arbitrarily engage the brake rather than use regen. Your assumption is that regen and braking have the same behavior and are interchangeable, but I don't think that's the case beyond both of them being used to stop.

brandonagr2 2y ago

And yet Tesla has industry leading brand loyalty, what do you think is a better predictor, an opaque number computed by Consumer Reports from an unknown formula that combines feedback about non reliability items from users who bother to respond to consumer reports questions, or what 87% of consumers decide after experiencing a Tesla? https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/tesla-leads-with-unmatched-brand-loyalty-in-the-us/ https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/tesla-leads-with-unmatched-...

wesselbindt 2y ago
The consumer report one. Also I feel like the source you link might be a teeny tiny bit biased.
manmal 2y ago
Is this still true? Recent numbers from EU countries didn’t look good for Tesla. Only 11% of Swedes approve of Tesla now.