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I think it is unnecessary to say "Putting aside the ethics". This is a very personal thing, for you it would (presumably) take putting aside your ethics, and ma

I think it is unnecessary to say "Putting aside the ethics". This is a very personal thing, for you it would (presumably) take putting aside your ethics, and maybe it would for me. But that is not the case for everyone. I for one don't like it when people online, with every statement, signal their personal ethics. It gets to be very tiresome and degrades my HN experience. Actually it is degrading my whole internet browsing experience nowadays. There is too much "btw, you should feel bad when you do X". It's divisive, the US could use less divisiveness or anti-divisiveness. And in come the downvotes, for speaking up against divisiveness. Doesn't that make you feel.. something?

chikere232 2y ago
It's pretty useful to remind people that buying a tesla is supporting Musk.
- teekert 2y ago
  Correction: You think that is useful. There are also people supporting Musk, should they add their statement to all of their posts? Is it really relevant? Don't you think people can't think for themselves? I follow the news, I'm pretty capable of deciding if I want a Tesla or not, people adding to all their posts that I should not doesn't change anything other then make me annoyed. Perhaps some like it, probably when it echoes their strong believes? So it's that? You signal you are one of those people? Well great for you! Now let's get back to discussing the article.
  - chikere232 2y ago
    I think there are lots of sort of tuned out but generally nice people who might shy away from buying a tesla if the perfidity of Musk is mentioned whenever tesla is discussed. The people who like Musk are probably beyond help
    - teekert 2y ago
      It always helps indeed, to change people's minds when you tell them "You are probably beyond help" or "You should feel bad if you do X". It's been great for my relationships! In fact, I'm gonna write a blog post now: "Things I wish someone would have told me before I went online and started sharing my opinions"! It's gonna be a guaranteed front-pager!
      - nhinck3 2y ago
        [flagged]
        teekert 2y ago
        Please re-read my comments. I don't state anything for or against Musk, I make it a point not to. I try to stress that things are not as one-sided as this comment-thread tries to make it out to be. I believe that that is a good thing. Is it not amazing to you, that you have just labelled someone that tries to argue against divisiveness as a Nazi supporter? My country, my grand parents suffered greatly under the Nazi's. I know what divisiveness does, I know what labeling another group of people as less-human, and stopping all attempts at conversation with them, can do. Fixing your country's politics is not done by working hard to increase the divide. Sure, be against Trump/Musk, but at the very least try to understand their supporters. You'll find that most of them are kind.
        nhinck3 2y ago
        You aren't arguing against divisiveness, you're arguing against bringing up politics, the politics of a man who is actively utilising his vast amounts of wealth to divide multiple countries. A man who is seeking to deny human rights to marginalised peoples. A man who stood in front an audience of millions and threw out a Nazi salute clear as day. There is no tolerance to be had here.
      - chikere232 2y ago
        "Probably beyond help" means they're not going to change their opinions no matter what, so trying to find phrasing that helps change their opinions is a waste of time. Being a musk supporter in this day and age isn't a simple difference in opinion, unless you're a good person who's been living under a rock, in which case a mention of musk being pretty awful could actually help you.
- prmoustache 2y ago
  My biggest issue with Tesla is not Musk, my biggest issue is owning a car that can be remotely tampered by Tesla and or the US government. On paper I am supposed to live in an allied country but Trump unilateraly decided that USA is at wars with everyone except Israel so I can't expect to be treated with respect by an US company. For this reason I have to remove all commercial ties with US companies and not buy anything from them unless it is an object/appliance I can certify doesn't connect to anything without my consent.
  - tacostakohashi 2y ago
    > For this reason I have to remove all commercial ties with US companies Good luck with that!
    - prmoustache 2y ago
      Not that hard really, at least in the short term and on personal level.
Gigachad 2y ago
Personally I draw the line somewhere before not funding someone who does nazi salutes. But you do you.
- teekert 2y ago
  Again an opinion, Musk said it was not a Nazi salute, he didn't repeat it, he has many Jewish supporters also saying it wasn't. Just stop, please, I'm really about to give up on the comment sections here.
  - NilMostChill 2y ago
    This seems like you're trying to say that you'll leave if you continue seeing things you don't agree with. That's 100% allowed, i'd personally encourage it, if you find yourself in a place you don't enjoy, stop going to that place. That's a mature response to a self-imposed stressful environment.
    - teekert 2y ago
      Sure, I agree with you, it just depends on what you want HN to be. I am an outsider to the US, I see your country as deeply divided. Families torn apart because of how they vote. Unthinkable here, probably unthinkable over there up until 10 years ago. In fact it seems more and more likely the US will erupt in a civil war, and split in 2. It just such a shame that HN, what I see as a gathering ground of intelligent people, is so much contributing to the divide by labeling people with other opinions as sub-humans almost. Belligerent, closed, judging. I don't like it. It's frightening.
      - hypothesis 2y ago
        Is it more frightening or less than being legally banned from existence? You don’t have to know much about history to see why people start cutting abusive relationships.
      - senordevnyc 2y ago
        Welcome to the downfall of civilization. It happens precisely because one side (or one player on one side) decides to stop playing infinite games, and start playing finite games instead. They weaponize your civility against you. The incentives for both sides shift, and we enter a downward spiral.
NilMostChill 2y ago
I would read that as "I'm specifically excluding talking points and discussion on ethics in this subject and focusing solely on the talking point at hand" That doesn't generally mean they have an ethical take, just that they recognise such things might exist and they specifically don't want to get in to it. Is that not what you want ? > And in come the downvotes, for speaking up against divisiveness. Doesn't that make you feel.. something? I'd assume it was because you were claiming divisiveness when the cause of such divisiveness was specifically excluded.
rob74 2y ago
Actually I'm curious if there is some kind of representative poll among Tesla owners about whether their personal ethics still align with the company's (or rather, its owner's) ethics. I mean, this is the guy who as recently as 2017 quit as an advisor for the first Trump administration because of Trump exiting the Paris climate agreement (https://money.cnn.com/2017/06/01/news/elon-musk-resigns-trump-adviser/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2017/06/01/news/elon-musk-resigns-trum...). Now I'm not sure which of the two alternatives is worse: that he has had a complete 180° turnaround of his moral compass, or that he was just pretending to care for the environment as long as it suited him?
- TwoFerMaggie 2y ago
  A poll suggests among Dutch Tesla owners, 40% feel embarrassed due to Musk's behavior, and 30% consider selling. [0][1] [0]: https://nltimes.nl/2025/01/19/tesla-owners-react-elon-musks-controversies-3-10-consider-selling-cars https://nltimes.nl/2025/01/19/tesla-owners-react-elon-musks-... [1]: https://eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/panels/opiniepanel/alle-uitslagen/item/schaamte-bij-tesla-rijders-door-gedrag-elon-musk-3-op-de-10-eigenaren-willen-van-hun-auto-af/ https://eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/panels/opiniepanel/alle-uitsl...
  - prmph 2y ago
    > 30% consider selling So they’d want more Musk fans to buy Teslas and support him, right? If they really felt so strongly about doing something, then they should junk the cars. Well, I guess I shouldn’t be too hard on them. Musk’s fans are not going to go away, Better to let them keep the Teslas in the family.
andrelaszlo 2y ago
I think the downvotes is for essentially doing what you are criticizing when you point out a certain thing someone said that hurt you. They were making an effort to stay on topic (reliability issues with Tesla's cars). You're making it about divisiveness. The ethical considerations around Tesla are pretty bizarre. It gets political, since the owner of the company is so deeply associated with both the cars and politics. I don't think your comment comes from a bad place, I understand the fatigue and the desparation. However, when someone in power does something "divisive" (quotes, because its the understatement of the decade - you can probably come up with examples) and people who mention it, even by not mentioning it, are told to be quiet because they are being divisive - it can come off as trying to silence people and ensure no criticizism can be raised. Again, I don't think that was your intention but it has that effect either way.
The_Colonel 2y ago
> I for one don't like it when people online, with every statement, signal their personal ethics. It gets to be very tiresome and degrades my HN experience. Ironically, buying a Tesla is nowadays a very visible political statement.

chikere232 2y ago

It's pretty useful to remind people that buying a tesla is supporting Musk.

teekert 2y ago
Correction: You think that is useful. There are also people supporting Musk, should they add their statement to all of their posts? Is it really relevant? Don't you think people can't think for themselves? I follow the news, I'm pretty capable of deciding if I want a Tesla or not, people adding to all their posts that I should not doesn't change anything other then make me annoyed. Perhaps some like it, probably when it echoes their strong believes? So it's that? You signal you are one of those people? Well great for you! Now let's get back to discussing the article.
- chikere232 2y ago
  I think there are lots of sort of tuned out but generally nice people who might shy away from buying a tesla if the perfidity of Musk is mentioned whenever tesla is discussed. The people who like Musk are probably beyond help
  - teekert 2y ago
    It always helps indeed, to change people's minds when you tell them "You are probably beyond help" or "You should feel bad if you do X". It's been great for my relationships! In fact, I'm gonna write a blog post now: "Things I wish someone would have told me before I went online and started sharing my opinions"! It's gonna be a guaranteed front-pager!
    - nhinck3 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - teekert 2y ago
        Please re-read my comments. I don't state anything for or against Musk, I make it a point not to. I try to stress that things are not as one-sided as this comment-thread tries to make it out to be. I believe that that is a good thing. Is it not amazing to you, that you have just labelled someone that tries to argue against divisiveness as a Nazi supporter? My country, my grand parents suffered greatly under the Nazi's. I know what divisiveness does, I know what labeling another group of people as less-human, and stopping all attempts at conversation with them, can do. Fixing your country's politics is not done by working hard to increase the divide. Sure, be against Trump/Musk, but at the very least try to understand their supporters. You'll find that most of them are kind.
        nhinck3 2y ago
        You aren't arguing against divisiveness, you're arguing against bringing up politics, the politics of a man who is actively utilising his vast amounts of wealth to divide multiple countries. A man who is seeking to deny human rights to marginalised peoples. A man who stood in front an audience of millions and threw out a Nazi salute clear as day. There is no tolerance to be had here.
    - chikere232 2y ago
      "Probably beyond help" means they're not going to change their opinions no matter what, so trying to find phrasing that helps change their opinions is a waste of time. Being a musk supporter in this day and age isn't a simple difference in opinion, unless you're a good person who's been living under a rock, in which case a mention of musk being pretty awful could actually help you.
prmoustache 2y ago
My biggest issue with Tesla is not Musk, my biggest issue is owning a car that can be remotely tampered by Tesla and or the US government. On paper I am supposed to live in an allied country but Trump unilateraly decided that USA is at wars with everyone except Israel so I can't expect to be treated with respect by an US company. For this reason I have to remove all commercial ties with US companies and not buy anything from them unless it is an object/appliance I can certify doesn't connect to anything without my consent.
- tacostakohashi 2y ago
  > For this reason I have to remove all commercial ties with US companies Good luck with that!
  - prmoustache 2y ago
    Not that hard really, at least in the short term and on personal level.

Gigachad 2y ago

Personally I draw the line somewhere before not funding someone who does nazi salutes. But you do you.

teekert 2y ago
Again an opinion, Musk said it was not a Nazi salute, he didn't repeat it, he has many Jewish supporters also saying it wasn't. Just stop, please, I'm really about to give up on the comment sections here.
- NilMostChill 2y ago
  This seems like you're trying to say that you'll leave if you continue seeing things you don't agree with. That's 100% allowed, i'd personally encourage it, if you find yourself in a place you don't enjoy, stop going to that place. That's a mature response to a self-imposed stressful environment.
  - teekert 2y ago
    Sure, I agree with you, it just depends on what you want HN to be. I am an outsider to the US, I see your country as deeply divided. Families torn apart because of how they vote. Unthinkable here, probably unthinkable over there up until 10 years ago. In fact it seems more and more likely the US will erupt in a civil war, and split in 2. It just such a shame that HN, what I see as a gathering ground of intelligent people, is so much contributing to the divide by labeling people with other opinions as sub-humans almost. Belligerent, closed, judging. I don't like it. It's frightening.
    - hypothesis 2y ago
      Is it more frightening or less than being legally banned from existence? You don’t have to know much about history to see why people start cutting abusive relationships.
    - senordevnyc 2y ago
      Welcome to the downfall of civilization. It happens precisely because one side (or one player on one side) decides to stop playing infinite games, and start playing finite games instead. They weaponize your civility against you. The incentives for both sides shift, and we enter a downward spiral.

NilMostChill 2y ago

I would read that as "I'm specifically excluding talking points and discussion on ethics in this subject and focusing solely on the talking point at hand" That doesn't generally mean they have an ethical take, just that they recognise such things might exist and they specifically don't want to get in to it. Is that not what you want ? > And in come the downvotes, for speaking up against divisiveness. Doesn't that make you feel.. something? I'd assume it was because you were claiming divisiveness when the cause of such divisiveness was specifically excluded.

rob74 2y ago

Actually I'm curious if there is some kind of representative poll among Tesla owners about whether their personal ethics still align with the company's (or rather, its owner's) ethics. I mean, this is the guy who as recently as 2017 quit as an advisor for the first Trump administration because of Trump exiting the Paris climate agreement (https://money.cnn.com/2017/06/01/news/elon-musk-resigns-trump-adviser/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2017/06/01/news/elon-musk-resigns-trum...). Now I'm not sure which of the two alternatives is worse: that he has had a complete 180° turnaround of his moral compass, or that he was just pretending to care for the environment as long as it suited him?

TwoFerMaggie 2y ago
A poll suggests among Dutch Tesla owners, 40% feel embarrassed due to Musk's behavior, and 30% consider selling. [0][1] [0]: https://nltimes.nl/2025/01/19/tesla-owners-react-elon-musks-controversies-3-10-consider-selling-cars https://nltimes.nl/2025/01/19/tesla-owners-react-elon-musks-... [1]: https://eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/panels/opiniepanel/alle-uitslagen/item/schaamte-bij-tesla-rijders-door-gedrag-elon-musk-3-op-de-10-eigenaren-willen-van-hun-auto-af/ https://eenvandaag.avrotros.nl/panels/opiniepanel/alle-uitsl...
- prmph 2y ago
  > 30% consider selling So they’d want more Musk fans to buy Teslas and support him, right? If they really felt so strongly about doing something, then they should junk the cars. Well, I guess I shouldn’t be too hard on them. Musk’s fans are not going to go away, Better to let them keep the Teslas in the family.

andrelaszlo 2y ago

I think the downvotes is for essentially doing what you are criticizing when you point out a certain thing someone said that hurt you. They were making an effort to stay on topic (reliability issues with Tesla's cars). You're making it about divisiveness. The ethical considerations around Tesla are pretty bizarre. It gets political, since the owner of the company is so deeply associated with both the cars and politics. I don't think your comment comes from a bad place, I understand the fatigue and the desparation. However, when someone in power does something "divisive" (quotes, because its the understatement of the decade - you can probably come up with examples) and people who mention it, even by not mentioning it, are told to be quiet because they are being divisive - it can come off as trying to silence people and ensure no criticizism can be raised. Again, I don't think that was your intention but it has that effect either way.

The_Colonel 2y ago

> I for one don't like it when people online, with every statement, signal their personal ethics. It gets to be very tiresome and degrades my HN experience. Ironically, buying a Tesla is nowadays a very visible political statement.