4 ms·

There was a good (?) video on the subject the other day, it was mainly about Volkswagen / VAG but highlighted the software problem. Cars are / were basically F

There was a good (?) video on the subject the other day, it was mainly about Volkswagen / VAG but highlighted the software problem. Cars are / were basically Frankenstein monsters under the hood, with dozens of onboard computers / chips all needing to work independently yet collaboratively and talk to each other. VW set up a new subsidiary and hired 3000 people to build the car software system of the future, reducing the 70-odd computers to 3 or so. But we all know software, it uh, didn't go as planned. Anyway, iirc Toyota or Mazda, one of them, was at the forefront of bringing regular buttons back to cars. And I hope there's going to be new car companies that iterate on the thing again and build simpler cars again. It should be a lot cheaper too, because it feels like they bolt on more and more electronic features to try and upsell the car. Building a car with the features and numbers of 30, 40 years ago should be doable at a fraction of the cost. And that development is coming actually, but it's coming from the likes of China and India. It's not profitable to bring them to the west though.

delta_p_delta_x 2y ago
The BMW G20 3-series before and after the facelift[1] perfectly exemplifies this issue. [1]: https://cdn.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/bmw-3-series-photo-comparison-12.jpg https://cdn.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/bmw-3-ser... EDIT: top is after, bottom is before.
- tobyhinloopen 2y ago
  I'd take the bottom picture any day. Is that the newer or older one? Although the LED strips are stupid. The top pic I saw in the showroom and I really didn't like it.
  - eb0la 2y ago
    In the name of $DEITY: WHY? I would pick without thinking the car without the child tablet attached to it, too. We will be forced to switch to this kind of stupid cars by regulation, or planned obsolescence, not by choice.
    - mschild 2y ago
      Not entirely regulation and planned obsolescence but because cost. Coding in the climate controls on the touch screen has a fixed cost that doesn't really increase with each car built. Adding multiple physical buttons, does. Even if each button costs cents to make.
- sandworm101 2y ago
  Note what did not change. The pedals and steering wheel are identical. Someone at BMW still knows what quality means.
- yubblegum 2y ago
  That box sticking out of dashboard is one of the most retarded things I've ever seen in a German car.
tobyhinloopen 2y ago
I'm afraid a lot of the tech is either necessary by law or necessary to get a decent safety rating these days, so you can't make the simple cars from yesteryear. Now, screens aren't required by law or safety ratings, but there's no getting around having a lot of software in there, and thus a screen to configure all that stuff.
- pitkali 2y ago
  Sure, but a screen, even a touchscreen, is not mutually exclusive with buttons. My Toyota has both, and after setting up the navigation, I can go the whole way and do everything without touching the screen.
- jemmyw 2y ago
  Reversing cameras are required by law and they need a screen.
  - ZeroGravitas 2y ago
    And are required by law because people with big SUVs kept running over their own children when backing out of driveways.
    - jasonjayr 2y ago
      "Regulations are written in blood"
  - tobyhinloopen 2y ago
    Oh, you're right!
  - test1235 2y ago
    For new cars in the US (they're not required at all here in UK)
    - Gare 2y ago
      EU requires them too
necovek 2y ago
General purpose computers and touchscreens are much cheaper than analog counterparts today. Getting the software right is hard (and thus expensive), which is what traditional physical product companies have a hard time figuring out.
rightbyte 2y ago
Auto programming is the prime example of Conway's law. Like, you have 10s of critical applications that you want to keep simple and not crashing or bugging out. So, just give them each a computer. No way for the shitty wiper department's buggy ECU to ruin your day in the brake ECU by blocking all the hydraulic lines. You can even put them on different CAN buses!
- formerly_proven 2y ago
  Even an economy car from 15 years ago will have 2-4 CAN buses for this reason.
michaelt 2y ago
> reducing the 70-odd computers to 3 or so. What are they even counting as a 'computer' to get to 70? I know that in the door there's going to be a microcontroller, to connect the buttons, the lock and the window motor to the CAN bus (or whatever it is they use these days). Is that a computer? Are they proposing to get rid of it?
- t43562 2y ago
  Ideally yes because if the microcontrollers can be replaced by a central macro-controller computer you can then update it all more easily. You make the whole thing more software defined.
  - graemep 2y ago
    Which is the problem. A lot of separate micro controllers will probably never need an update. We have now had microcontrollers in cars for decades, and they almost all worked fine without updates. Its only recently, with the more software defined systems, that we have needed updates.
    - graemep 2y ago
      To add, I recall a fair proportion of ARM's sales (as per annual report) were for automotive use, so we a lot of this were processors that compared well to what you would have run a desktop on a decade earlier so reasonably sophisticated systems potentially, just kept simple by being single purpose.
    - t43562 2y ago
      I'm not in a position to know but from reading around a lot I think the VW ID3/4 ended up having a nightmare update scenario because early hardware was buggy. I know from working at a phone company that hardware absolutely has bugs and it's only reliable as long as you're changing very little. If you start having a system where you're trying to optimise everything e.g. to save power when not in use and allow lots of customer choices in how things work then you're going to choose new microcontroller hardware and software and it will have bugs that have not been ironed out over the years. The stories I read about ID3 updates going wrong were about certain controllers not successfully acknowledging their firmware updates. So I can see a strong temptation to make it all vertical - to have control over everything so you can ensure it works before you order 200k of them. Instead of having 60 suppliers all providing their interpretation of your bus protocol, each with unique bugs you take the whole thing into a single design. I can also see it being far more conducive to have a smaller number of bigger and more homogeneous microcontrollers each of which might not be perfect for every job but since they're all the same you only have to provide 1 software update solution and you can test the shit out of it.
Philpax 2y ago
The video in question: https://youtu.be/74E-eAxQ9P4 https://youtu.be/74E-eAxQ9P4
clauderoux 2y ago
Mazda is pretty great actually. I have a CX30 (3 years), where the screen is not sensitive and everything is controlled with mechanical buttons... The best of both worlds...
- tobyhinloopen 2y ago
  Same - really happy with my Mazda CX-5. It has everything including Lane Assist and Adaptive Cruise Control, and it just works.

delta_p_delta_x 2y ago

The BMW G20 3-series before and after the facelift[1] perfectly exemplifies this issue. [1]: https://cdn.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/bmw-3-series-photo-comparison-12.jpg https://cdn.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/bmw-3-ser... EDIT: top is after, bottom is before.

tobyhinloopen 2y ago
I'd take the bottom picture any day. Is that the newer or older one? Although the LED strips are stupid. The top pic I saw in the showroom and I really didn't like it.
- eb0la 2y ago
  In the name of $DEITY: WHY? I would pick without thinking the car without the child tablet attached to it, too. We will be forced to switch to this kind of stupid cars by regulation, or planned obsolescence, not by choice.
  - mschild 2y ago
    Not entirely regulation and planned obsolescence but because cost. Coding in the climate controls on the touch screen has a fixed cost that doesn't really increase with each car built. Adding multiple physical buttons, does. Even if each button costs cents to make.
sandworm101 2y ago
Note what did not change. The pedals and steering wheel are identical. Someone at BMW still knows what quality means.
yubblegum 2y ago
That box sticking out of dashboard is one of the most retarded things I've ever seen in a German car.

tobyhinloopen 2y ago

I'm afraid a lot of the tech is either necessary by law or necessary to get a decent safety rating these days, so you can't make the simple cars from yesteryear. Now, screens aren't required by law or safety ratings, but there's no getting around having a lot of software in there, and thus a screen to configure all that stuff.

pitkali 2y ago
Sure, but a screen, even a touchscreen, is not mutually exclusive with buttons. My Toyota has both, and after setting up the navigation, I can go the whole way and do everything without touching the screen.
jemmyw 2y ago
Reversing cameras are required by law and they need a screen.
- ZeroGravitas 2y ago
  And are required by law because people with big SUVs kept running over their own children when backing out of driveways.
  - jasonjayr 2y ago
    "Regulations are written in blood"
- tobyhinloopen 2y ago
  Oh, you're right!
- test1235 2y ago
  For new cars in the US (they're not required at all here in UK)
  - Gare 2y ago
    EU requires them too

necovek 2y ago

General purpose computers and touchscreens are much cheaper than analog counterparts today. Getting the software right is hard (and thus expensive), which is what traditional physical product companies have a hard time figuring out.

rightbyte 2y ago

Auto programming is the prime example of Conway's law. Like, you have 10s of critical applications that you want to keep simple and not crashing or bugging out. So, just give them each a computer. No way for the shitty wiper department's buggy ECU to ruin your day in the brake ECU by blocking all the hydraulic lines. You can even put them on different CAN buses!

formerly_proven 2y ago
Even an economy car from 15 years ago will have 2-4 CAN buses for this reason.

michaelt 2y ago

> reducing the 70-odd computers to 3 or so. What are they even counting as a 'computer' to get to 70? I know that in the door there's going to be a microcontroller, to connect the buttons, the lock and the window motor to the CAN bus (or whatever it is they use these days). Is that a computer? Are they proposing to get rid of it?

t43562 2y ago
Ideally yes because if the microcontrollers can be replaced by a central macro-controller computer you can then update it all more easily. You make the whole thing more software defined.
- graemep 2y ago
  Which is the problem. A lot of separate micro controllers will probably never need an update. We have now had microcontrollers in cars for decades, and they almost all worked fine without updates. Its only recently, with the more software defined systems, that we have needed updates.
  - graemep 2y ago
    To add, I recall a fair proportion of ARM's sales (as per annual report) were for automotive use, so we a lot of this were processors that compared well to what you would have run a desktop on a decade earlier so reasonably sophisticated systems potentially, just kept simple by being single purpose.
  - t43562 2y ago
    I'm not in a position to know but from reading around a lot I think the VW ID3/4 ended up having a nightmare update scenario because early hardware was buggy. I know from working at a phone company that hardware absolutely has bugs and it's only reliable as long as you're changing very little. If you start having a system where you're trying to optimise everything e.g. to save power when not in use and allow lots of customer choices in how things work then you're going to choose new microcontroller hardware and software and it will have bugs that have not been ironed out over the years. The stories I read about ID3 updates going wrong were about certain controllers not successfully acknowledging their firmware updates. So I can see a strong temptation to make it all vertical - to have control over everything so you can ensure it works before you order 200k of them. Instead of having 60 suppliers all providing their interpretation of your bus protocol, each with unique bugs you take the whole thing into a single design. I can also see it being far more conducive to have a smaller number of bigger and more homogeneous microcontrollers each of which might not be perfect for every job but since they're all the same you only have to provide 1 software update solution and you can test the shit out of it.

Philpax 2y ago

The video in question: https://youtu.be/74E-eAxQ9P4 https://youtu.be/74E-eAxQ9P4

clauderoux 2y ago

Mazda is pretty great actually. I have a CX30 (3 years), where the screen is not sensitive and everything is controlled with mechanical buttons... The best of both worlds...

tobyhinloopen 2y ago
Same - really happy with my Mazda CX-5. It has everything including Lane Assist and Adaptive Cruise Control, and it just works.