7 ms·

People get clearances even if they've used hardcore drugs such as cocaine and various more serious crimes than computer crimes. The adjudication guides for clea

by b8 2y ago

People get clearances even if they've used hardcore drugs such as cocaine and various more serious crimes than computer crimes. The adjudication guides for clearances explain this in more detail. I have a friend who exploited RCE full-chain exploits on productions servers and used to DDoS. He got a TS/SCI clearance no problem and didn't even finish college. I interviewed too and admitted to that stuff. They cared more about me admitting to cheating in math at college lol.

Manuel_D 2y ago
TS/SCI clearance is a lot more about truthfulness. The adjudicators are looking for secrets that can be used as leverage. Publicly writing reviews for cannabis strains is not a risk. A Mormon secretly hiding alcoholic tendencies could be. I'm also told that owning foreign property is unfriendly countries, and debt are the other big reasons for clearance denial.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  > owning foreign property is unfriendly countries This is pretty darn specific. It must be tiny fraction of applicants. Hell, most Americans never leave the United States in their lifetime. The security concern about heavy debts or debts to unfriendly counterparties makes sense to me. But what is the security concern with "owning foreign property is unfriendly countries"? They can take it from you?
  - adbachman 2y ago
    The concern is always leverage and conflict of interest. Is there something about you that you would do anything to keep covered up? Are you susceptible to outside influence? Can anyone, in any country, compel you to act counter to the interest of your employer? Foreign property means you are, at the very least, going to take interest if/when the foreign government threatens it.
    - error_logic 2y ago
      Or if a government funding bill threatens it.
    - guappa 2y ago
      People who don't own abroad property can be corrupted as well. The whole premise is weird.
      - klez 2y ago
        That's not the only thing that makes you a risk, it's just one factor they take into consideration.
      - saalweachter 2y ago
        They're looking for two different sets of things. "Are you an untrustworthy person?" Are you likely to take a bribe? Will you get mad at your boss and try to burn the place down, literally or metaphorically? Will you be careless in a way that brings about the same, with no malice? "Are you as trustworthy as anyone else, but subject to inhuman pressure?" Anyone would be vulnerable to having a relative threatened; you probably don't want to hire someone who would be apathetic to having their parents or child threatened. If that relative is already in unfriendly hands, that's a huge risk. In some ways, a $100k house in a (hostile) foreign country is no different than a $100k bribe; it's just stuff. If you ignore a threat to your property in a scheme to extort you, you are $100k poorer than if you give in, just like if you turn down a bribe. But humans are prone to loss aversion. Having $1 taken from you is far worse than receiving $1 is good, even ignoring any sentimental value of the property in question. Some people will still be able to ignore the threat, not allow themselves to be compromised, but a lot of people will find it hard. For a job where security is a concern and you have thousands or millions of perfectly cromulent candidates, it's not crazy to winnow the pool first by discarding everyone who's untrustworthy or has extra levers that can be used against them. You still have thousands or millions of great candidates left.
      - red-iron-pine 2y ago
        sure, but it's way easier for the FBI to request the title and deed for things in the US and track their history than an apartment building in Panama, or a plantation in Indonesia.
  - annzabelle 2y ago
    You have to remember that the DC area workforce has a lot of immigrants, people married to immigrants, and people who've done significant overseas stints. Plus there is a need for hiring linguists and cultural experts with fluency in unfriendly languages. I know of TS clearance holders who have significant ties to Iran, Syria, Russia, and Afghanistan, but have renounced those citizenships and are loyal to the US. The clearance process works to figure out what levers those countries could still pull on them - foreign property and close family still there are the big ones.
  - Manuel_D 2y ago
    > But what is the security concern with "owning foreign property is unfriendly countries"? They can take it from you? Exactly. Or rather, they can threaten to take it from you unless you do something (probably illegal) for said foreign government.
  - red-iron-pine 2y ago
    they need to hire people who speak Arabic, or Chinese, or Hindi, and have ties they can utilize in those countries -- or at least understand well enough to build ties. overseas money and property, esp. in unfriendly countries, rapidly becomes a concern in that sense. go double agent, have a friend overseas give you some sweet improvements to your house on the cheap, then sell it later for 4x than it's worth, and repeat.
- sitkack 2y ago
  I have a theory that the normalization of homosexuality in the united states was a move by the security agencies to lower their exposure risk. If everything is cool, nothing is blackmail. Blackmail is what sinks orgs because you have no idea who is going to be a mole.
  - eastbound 2y ago
    I have the impression that sexual harassment became the opposite. Something most successful man are blamed for, decades later when all possible proof have vanished. In terms of blackmail, the power seems much higher.
    - watwut 2y ago
      People who sexually harass are on supreme court and literally the president. For considerable amount of people, it is a positive sign that "the guy is like us".
      - vitajex 2y ago
        I don't think anyone takes it as a positive. It's just not what voters vote on. If they support one candidate's policies more than another's, they won't flip because of that issue. The example of Bill Clinton demonstrates that this happens across the political spectrum, and his feminist supporters were the ones making this argument back then. They got criticized for being hypocritical, but in politics you have to prioritize.
        watwut 2y ago
        I do actually think they see it as a positive. It is not just that they do not care. It is that it heightens his credit in their eyes and they get to see him as victim. It makes him look more manly for some people.
        progmetaldev 2y ago
        At the least, it often makes them feel empowered to speak out in favor of forgetting all about the issue, and emboldening them to push for whatever the politician pushes that they agree with. At least in the US, you can hop on social media and take a look at your local newspaper or news channel's posts, and see some of the truly insane comments (and I use insane here as in bringing up politics to promote their voted politician, or smear the other side, when the issue is something at a local level or unaffected by politics in any way).
2-3-7-43-1807 2y ago
taking cocaine is a more hardcore crime than computer crime?
- b8 2y ago
  It was just an example, but you can read the DCSA appeals page to find worse illegal stuff that has been adjudicated: https://doha.ogc.osd.mil/Industrial-Security-Program/Industrial-Security-Clearance-Decisions/ISCR-Hearing-Decisions/ https://doha.ogc.osd.mil/Industrial-Security-Program/Industr...
TrackerFF 2y ago
Maybe the US 3-letter agencies are a bit more forgiving, but when I worked in intelligence there were three deadly sins that would make you untouchable as a candidate: - Drug use - Financial crimes - Close ties to hostile countries (China, Russia, Pakistan, Iran, North-Korea, etc.) And at least in my country, it's not the intelligence agencies themselves that handle the security clearance, but rather a dedicated agency/authority that processes all the security clearances in the country. Now, if you've never been arrested / charged / convicted on the two first points - who would know? I'm 100% some candidates would simply lie.
- roguecoder 2y ago
  America has recently waved the security clearance process entirely for certain roles, so currently there isn't anything that is disqualifying right now. Prior to that change, lying in the clearance process was the one thing that was absolutely disqualifying. As you noted candidates are incentivized to lie, and so "did you lie here, where it is likely to benefit you?" becomes an effective screening mechanism for people who are willing to compromise their ethics for personal gain.
- pc86 2y ago
  US intelligence agencies really only care about your third point directly, everything else they care about only insofar as it can blackmail you or make you beholden to criminal interests. They don't care if you're gay, but they care if you're closeted. They don't care if you do drugs, but they do care if it's such a problem you could become financially beholden to someone over it.
  - 542354234235 2y ago
    >They don't care if you do drugs More accurately, they don’t necessarily care if you did drugs in the past. Current drug use, or very recent drug use is a risk, as addiction is a huge risk for both judgement and susceptibility to blackmail, and even controlled drug use is illegal. Also, being a previous drug addict extremely risky drug use can speak to your current judgement.
lucasRW 2y ago
These guys worked for SpaceX anyway, so it's pretty much guaranteed that they were already cleared even before joining DOGE. A lot of speculation and guessing on this topic, which is surprising from news outlets which pride themselves on "facts" and "truth"... I'm not even mentioning the fact that revealing the names, handles, identities of employees and clearing saying that they have admin rights on systems X and Y, is in itself a serious breach of cybersecurity...
- someothherguyy 2y ago
  https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/memorandum-to-resolve-the-backlog-of-security-clearances-for-executive-office-of-the-president-personnel/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/memo... Also, why is your history all Musk'd?
- roguecoder 2y ago
  Interns aren't around long enough to get security clearances and interns in defense companies usually work on non-classified work. The only vetting is "are you a citizen or lawful permanent resident?", for export compliance. If an intern had access to any classified materials, it is because a crime was committed.
  - 542354234235 2y ago
    Internships with clearances are common in the Intelligence Community. Homeland Security “The Office of Intelligence and Analysis (I&A) Internship Program is for… an exciting career in homeland security and intelligence…all selected applicants must undergo and successfully complete a background investigation and be granted a Top Secret/SCI clearance” [1] Department of State “Students tentatively selected for the internship program must undergo a background investigation and receive either a Secret or Top Secret security clearance.” [2] Office of Naval Intelligence “All interns must receive security clearances at the interim or final top-secret level with access to sensitive compartmented information (TS/SCI).” [3] Defense Intelligence Agency “Summer Internship Program (SIP)… To be eligible, you must…Maintain a security clearance” [4] [1] https://www.dhs.gov/homeland-security-careers/office-intelligence-and-analysis-internship-program https://www.dhs.gov/homeland-security-careers/office-intelli... [2] https://careers.state.gov/uploads/3f/b3/3fb3a5029621ca488d8c632f0db2b51f/4.0_Student_Clearance.pdf https://careers.state.gov/uploads/3f/b3/3fb3a5029621ca488d8c... [3] https://www.oni.navy.mil/Careers/Intern-Programs/#:~:text=All%20interns%20must%20receive%20security,information%20(TS/SCI). https://www.oni.navy.mil/Careers/Intern-Programs/#:~:text=Al... [4] https://www.intelligencecareers.gov/dia/students-and-internships https://www.intelligencecareers.gov/dia/students-and-interns...
ineedasername 2y ago
The difficult thing, at 19, is that a person has had zero time to at all demonstrate that they have put drugs and/or other criminal activities behind them.

by b8 2y ago

Manuel_D 2y ago

TS/SCI clearance is a lot more about truthfulness. The adjudicators are looking for secrets that can be used as leverage. Publicly writing reviews for cannabis strains is not a risk. A Mormon secretly hiding alcoholic tendencies could be. I'm also told that owning foreign property is unfriendly countries, and debt are the other big reasons for clearance denial.

throwaway2037 2y ago
> owning foreign property is unfriendly countries This is pretty darn specific. It must be tiny fraction of applicants. Hell, most Americans never leave the United States in their lifetime. The security concern about heavy debts or debts to unfriendly counterparties makes sense to me. But what is the security concern with "owning foreign property is unfriendly countries"? They can take it from you?
- adbachman 2y ago
  The concern is always leverage and conflict of interest. Is there something about you that you would do anything to keep covered up? Are you susceptible to outside influence? Can anyone, in any country, compel you to act counter to the interest of your employer? Foreign property means you are, at the very least, going to take interest if/when the foreign government threatens it.
  - error_logic 2y ago
    Or if a government funding bill threatens it.
  - guappa 2y ago
    People who don't own abroad property can be corrupted as well. The whole premise is weird.
    - klez 2y ago
      That's not the only thing that makes you a risk, it's just one factor they take into consideration.
    - saalweachter 2y ago
      They're looking for two different sets of things. "Are you an untrustworthy person?" Are you likely to take a bribe? Will you get mad at your boss and try to burn the place down, literally or metaphorically? Will you be careless in a way that brings about the same, with no malice? "Are you as trustworthy as anyone else, but subject to inhuman pressure?" Anyone would be vulnerable to having a relative threatened; you probably don't want to hire someone who would be apathetic to having their parents or child threatened. If that relative is already in unfriendly hands, that's a huge risk. In some ways, a $100k house in a (hostile) foreign country is no different than a $100k bribe; it's just stuff. If you ignore a threat to your property in a scheme to extort you, you are $100k poorer than if you give in, just like if you turn down a bribe. But humans are prone to loss aversion. Having $1 taken from you is far worse than receiving $1 is good, even ignoring any sentimental value of the property in question. Some people will still be able to ignore the threat, not allow themselves to be compromised, but a lot of people will find it hard. For a job where security is a concern and you have thousands or millions of perfectly cromulent candidates, it's not crazy to winnow the pool first by discarding everyone who's untrustworthy or has extra levers that can be used against them. You still have thousands or millions of great candidates left.
    - red-iron-pine 2y ago
      sure, but it's way easier for the FBI to request the title and deed for things in the US and track their history than an apartment building in Panama, or a plantation in Indonesia.
- annzabelle 2y ago
  You have to remember that the DC area workforce has a lot of immigrants, people married to immigrants, and people who've done significant overseas stints. Plus there is a need for hiring linguists and cultural experts with fluency in unfriendly languages. I know of TS clearance holders who have significant ties to Iran, Syria, Russia, and Afghanistan, but have renounced those citizenships and are loyal to the US. The clearance process works to figure out what levers those countries could still pull on them - foreign property and close family still there are the big ones.
- Manuel_D 2y ago
  > But what is the security concern with "owning foreign property is unfriendly countries"? They can take it from you? Exactly. Or rather, they can threaten to take it from you unless you do something (probably illegal) for said foreign government.
- red-iron-pine 2y ago
  they need to hire people who speak Arabic, or Chinese, or Hindi, and have ties they can utilize in those countries -- or at least understand well enough to build ties. overseas money and property, esp. in unfriendly countries, rapidly becomes a concern in that sense. go double agent, have a friend overseas give you some sweet improvements to your house on the cheap, then sell it later for 4x than it's worth, and repeat.
sitkack 2y ago
I have a theory that the normalization of homosexuality in the united states was a move by the security agencies to lower their exposure risk. If everything is cool, nothing is blackmail. Blackmail is what sinks orgs because you have no idea who is going to be a mole.
- eastbound 2y ago
  I have the impression that sexual harassment became the opposite. Something most successful man are blamed for, decades later when all possible proof have vanished. In terms of blackmail, the power seems much higher.
  - watwut 2y ago
    People who sexually harass are on supreme court and literally the president. For considerable amount of people, it is a positive sign that "the guy is like us".
    - vitajex 2y ago
      I don't think anyone takes it as a positive. It's just not what voters vote on. If they support one candidate's policies more than another's, they won't flip because of that issue. The example of Bill Clinton demonstrates that this happens across the political spectrum, and his feminist supporters were the ones making this argument back then. They got criticized for being hypocritical, but in politics you have to prioritize.
      - watwut 2y ago
        I do actually think they see it as a positive. It is not just that they do not care. It is that it heightens his credit in their eyes and they get to see him as victim. It makes him look more manly for some people.
        progmetaldev 2y ago
        At the least, it often makes them feel empowered to speak out in favor of forgetting all about the issue, and emboldening them to push for whatever the politician pushes that they agree with. At least in the US, you can hop on social media and take a look at your local newspaper or news channel's posts, and see some of the truly insane comments (and I use insane here as in bringing up politics to promote their voted politician, or smear the other side, when the issue is something at a local level or unaffected by politics in any way).

2-3-7-43-1807 2y ago

taking cocaine is a more hardcore crime than computer crime?

b8 2y ago
It was just an example, but you can read the DCSA appeals page to find worse illegal stuff that has been adjudicated: https://doha.ogc.osd.mil/Industrial-Security-Program/Industrial-Security-Clearance-Decisions/ISCR-Hearing-Decisions/ https://doha.ogc.osd.mil/Industrial-Security-Program/Industr...

TrackerFF 2y ago

Maybe the US 3-letter agencies are a bit more forgiving, but when I worked in intelligence there were three deadly sins that would make you untouchable as a candidate: - Drug use - Financial crimes - Close ties to hostile countries (China, Russia, Pakistan, Iran, North-Korea, etc.) And at least in my country, it's not the intelligence agencies themselves that handle the security clearance, but rather a dedicated agency/authority that processes all the security clearances in the country. Now, if you've never been arrested / charged / convicted on the two first points - who would know? I'm 100% some candidates would simply lie.

roguecoder 2y ago
America has recently waved the security clearance process entirely for certain roles, so currently there isn't anything that is disqualifying right now. Prior to that change, lying in the clearance process was the one thing that was absolutely disqualifying. As you noted candidates are incentivized to lie, and so "did you lie here, where it is likely to benefit you?" becomes an effective screening mechanism for people who are willing to compromise their ethics for personal gain.
pc86 2y ago
US intelligence agencies really only care about your third point directly, everything else they care about only insofar as it can blackmail you or make you beholden to criminal interests. They don't care if you're gay, but they care if you're closeted. They don't care if you do drugs, but they do care if it's such a problem you could become financially beholden to someone over it.
- 542354234235 2y ago
  >They don't care if you do drugs More accurately, they don’t necessarily care if you did drugs in the past. Current drug use, or very recent drug use is a risk, as addiction is a huge risk for both judgement and susceptibility to blackmail, and even controlled drug use is illegal. Also, being a previous drug addict extremely risky drug use can speak to your current judgement.

lucasRW 2y ago

These guys worked for SpaceX anyway, so it's pretty much guaranteed that they were already cleared even before joining DOGE. A lot of speculation and guessing on this topic, which is surprising from news outlets which pride themselves on "facts" and "truth"... I'm not even mentioning the fact that revealing the names, handles, identities of employees and clearing saying that they have admin rights on systems X and Y, is in itself a serious breach of cybersecurity...

someothherguyy 2y ago
https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/memorandum-to-resolve-the-backlog-of-security-clearances-for-executive-office-of-the-president-personnel/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/memo... Also, why is your history all Musk'd?
roguecoder 2y ago
Interns aren't around long enough to get security clearances and interns in defense companies usually work on non-classified work. The only vetting is "are you a citizen or lawful permanent resident?", for export compliance. If an intern had access to any classified materials, it is because a crime was committed.
- 542354234235 2y ago
  Internships with clearances are common in the Intelligence Community. Homeland Security “The Office of Intelligence and Analysis (I&A) Internship Program is for… an exciting career in homeland security and intelligence…all selected applicants must undergo and successfully complete a background investigation and be granted a Top Secret/SCI clearance” [1] Department of State “Students tentatively selected for the internship program must undergo a background investigation and receive either a Secret or Top Secret security clearance.” [2] Office of Naval Intelligence “All interns must receive security clearances at the interim or final top-secret level with access to sensitive compartmented information (TS/SCI).” [3] Defense Intelligence Agency “Summer Internship Program (SIP)… To be eligible, you must…Maintain a security clearance” [4] [1] https://www.dhs.gov/homeland-security-careers/office-intelligence-and-analysis-internship-program https://www.dhs.gov/homeland-security-careers/office-intelli... [2] https://careers.state.gov/uploads/3f/b3/3fb3a5029621ca488d8c632f0db2b51f/4.0_Student_Clearance.pdf https://careers.state.gov/uploads/3f/b3/3fb3a5029621ca488d8c... [3] https://www.oni.navy.mil/Careers/Intern-Programs/#:~:text=All%20interns%20must%20receive%20security,information%20(TS/SCI). https://www.oni.navy.mil/Careers/Intern-Programs/#:~:text=Al... [4] https://www.intelligencecareers.gov/dia/students-and-internships https://www.intelligencecareers.gov/dia/students-and-interns...

ineedasername 2y ago

The difficult thing, at 19, is that a person has had zero time to at all demonstrate that they have put drugs and/or other criminal activities behind them.