4 ms·

The question no one is asking is why does the federal government have so much "sensitive data" on it's citizens in the first place? When you build a machine li

The question no one is asking is why does the federal government have so much "sensitive data" on it's citizens in the first place? When you build a machine like this you should ask, "would I be comfortable if my political opposites had control of this?" If the answer is no, then you DON'T BUILD IT. Meanwhile someone goes in there to try to break up this 30 year pile of technical debt and it's all lawsuits and handwaving theatrics to try to stop it.

mvdtnz 2y ago
How could the US government do things like collect tax or regulate the medical industry without sensitive data?
- timewizard 2y ago
  Tax data is not particularly sensitive and several nations just publish it. Even in the US many forms of non-individual tax filings are public by default. The results of audits /are/ highly sensitive but there's no reason to hold those on computer systems for longer than 5 years after the audit. I think the medical industry can easily be regulated without the government having access to my actual medical file. They regulate cars without having any idea how I drive mine. They regulate planes without sitting on the flight deck themselves. It's like we know how to build good businesses, good databases, have solid user control practices, but then we give the government a pass because it's imagined to be "really hard." It's laughable.
  - matwood 2y ago
    > Tax data is not particularly sensitive and several nations just publish it. Aren't we still waiting for Trump's tax returns?
    - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
      https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/trumps-tax-returns-released-today-2022-12-30/?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/trumps-tax-returns-rele...
  - c-cube 2y ago
    Can you point to a country that publicly releases everybody's tax returns, as a policy? I know some countries that release elected officials' returns, but not those of common people.
    - vntok 2y ago
      Finland for example: https://www.vero.fi/en/About-us/finnish-tax-administration/data-security-and-information-access/public-information-on-taxes/public-information-on-individual-income-taxes/ https://www.vero.fi/en/About-us/finnish-tax-administration/d... > Individual income tax information for 2023 was released on 7 November 2024. Public information can be browsed on tax office workstations and requested by telephone: How to search the public information on income taxes and real estate taxes > The following data is included in the public information on individual income taxes: > name, year of birth, county earned income subject to state taxation > capital income subject to state taxation, income subject to municipal taxation, income tax, municipal tax > imposed taxes and charges in total, amount of back taxes or tax refunds
      - c-cube 2y ago
        Thank you, not surprising it's the nordic countries. I can't imagine this in the US but I'm glad to learn some places pull it off.
    - jay_kyburz 2y ago
      A quick google search tells me Finland, Norway, Sweden, Pakistan
    - qwerty1793 2y ago
      Norway allows you to see / search almost everyone's personal tax record (including name, birth year, postal code, net income and net wealth). You can do this online here: https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/forms/search-the-tax-lists/ https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/forms/search-the-tax-lists/
    - mrmlz 2y ago
      Sweden - public records.
  - mvdtnz 2y ago
    Sensitive data includes things like home addresses, personal income, personal debt, personal wealth, dates of birth, medical status, etc. I don't know if it's true that some nations publish that (I don't personally know of any) but whether that's the case or not doesn't make any difference to whether it's sensitive.
    - mrmlz 2y ago
      In Sweden that's public information except medical status. So I can call the IRS - get the date of birth and tax declaration, i.e. income from work and income from capital of anybody (except those with protected identity). Address and date of birth etc. you can just check any map-site lite hitta.se.
    - timewizard 2y ago
      I'm not trying to be flip. You should try to look up your own data sometime. In many states, with just your plate number, I can request your info. The DMV will give it to me unless you've requested and presented a reason for them not to. Some will notify you and possibly give you a few days advance notice but with action on your part I will get your information. The cost here is less than $100 typically. Or a PI. The cost there is less than $2000 typically.
- jokethrowaway 2y ago
  I'd be happy if they dropped both taxes and regulations
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  Taxes could be consumption based with no need for anyone’s personal data at all.
  - mvdtnz 2y ago
    Consumption taxes are highly regressive. Pure consumption taxes would plunge USA into an even higher degree of inequality. The most progressive way to tax a populous is taxing incomes and wealth progressively.
    - SoftTalker 2y ago
      You could give everyone an exemption. That would require some minimal tracking of identity and whether or not the exemption had been paid, but no details on income, wealth, family status, etc. I fundamentally disagree that earning money or saving it should be taxable in and of itself. We should encourage that as much as possible. But others differ.
  - vkou 2y ago
    They could be, but they aren't.
vharuck 2y ago
The NIH and CDC have incredibly detailed medical event data for infectious diseases, cancer diagnoses, and death certificates (which have a ton of data beyond "John Doe of New York City died of such and such on such and such date." It's how we have incredibly effective epidemiologists. Hospitals and non-profits use the data published by the government to make large decisions about equipment purchases, types of staff to hire, and community health programs to run. All the government professionals I've met who work with that data are very careful with it. The guiding star is "Never let anyone use our data to find out something about any individual. Then, if you still can, publish someone useful." >Meanwhile someone goes in there to try to break up this 30 year pile of technical debt and it's all lawsuits and handwaving theatrics to try to stop it. They only had to get security clearances and follow the Constitution. Clearances are routine, so shouldn't be a problem (unless the person being cleared is a problem). The Republicans control all branches of government, and cost-cutting is very popular among all voters, so writing a better budget is possible. Things won't collapse if they work on it until before the midterm elections. It just seems like Trump is testing how far he can walk along the path to tyranny.

mvdtnz 2y ago

How could the US government do things like collect tax or regulate the medical industry without sensitive data?

timewizard 2y ago
Tax data is not particularly sensitive and several nations just publish it. Even in the US many forms of non-individual tax filings are public by default. The results of audits /are/ highly sensitive but there's no reason to hold those on computer systems for longer than 5 years after the audit. I think the medical industry can easily be regulated without the government having access to my actual medical file. They regulate cars without having any idea how I drive mine. They regulate planes without sitting on the flight deck themselves. It's like we know how to build good businesses, good databases, have solid user control practices, but then we give the government a pass because it's imagined to be "really hard." It's laughable.
- matwood 2y ago
  > Tax data is not particularly sensitive and several nations just publish it. Aren't we still waiting for Trump's tax returns?
  - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 2y ago
    https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/trumps-tax-returns-released-today-2022-12-30/?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/trumps-tax-returns-rele...
- c-cube 2y ago
  Can you point to a country that publicly releases everybody's tax returns, as a policy? I know some countries that release elected officials' returns, but not those of common people.
  - vntok 2y ago
    Finland for example: https://www.vero.fi/en/About-us/finnish-tax-administration/data-security-and-information-access/public-information-on-taxes/public-information-on-individual-income-taxes/ https://www.vero.fi/en/About-us/finnish-tax-administration/d... > Individual income tax information for 2023 was released on 7 November 2024. Public information can be browsed on tax office workstations and requested by telephone: How to search the public information on income taxes and real estate taxes > The following data is included in the public information on individual income taxes: > name, year of birth, county earned income subject to state taxation > capital income subject to state taxation, income subject to municipal taxation, income tax, municipal tax > imposed taxes and charges in total, amount of back taxes or tax refunds
    - c-cube 2y ago
      Thank you, not surprising it's the nordic countries. I can't imagine this in the US but I'm glad to learn some places pull it off.
  - jay_kyburz 2y ago
    A quick google search tells me Finland, Norway, Sweden, Pakistan
  - qwerty1793 2y ago
    Norway allows you to see / search almost everyone's personal tax record (including name, birth year, postal code, net income and net wealth). You can do this online here: https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/forms/search-the-tax-lists/ https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/forms/search-the-tax-lists/
  - mrmlz 2y ago
    Sweden - public records.
- mvdtnz 2y ago
  Sensitive data includes things like home addresses, personal income, personal debt, personal wealth, dates of birth, medical status, etc. I don't know if it's true that some nations publish that (I don't personally know of any) but whether that's the case or not doesn't make any difference to whether it's sensitive.
  - mrmlz 2y ago
    In Sweden that's public information except medical status. So I can call the IRS - get the date of birth and tax declaration, i.e. income from work and income from capital of anybody (except those with protected identity). Address and date of birth etc. you can just check any map-site lite hitta.se.
  - timewizard 2y ago
    I'm not trying to be flip. You should try to look up your own data sometime. In many states, with just your plate number, I can request your info. The DMV will give it to me unless you've requested and presented a reason for them not to. Some will notify you and possibly give you a few days advance notice but with action on your part I will get your information. The cost here is less than $100 typically. Or a PI. The cost there is less than $2000 typically.
jokethrowaway 2y ago
I'd be happy if they dropped both taxes and regulations
SoftTalker 2y ago
Taxes could be consumption based with no need for anyone’s personal data at all.
- mvdtnz 2y ago
  Consumption taxes are highly regressive. Pure consumption taxes would plunge USA into an even higher degree of inequality. The most progressive way to tax a populous is taxing incomes and wealth progressively.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    You could give everyone an exemption. That would require some minimal tracking of identity and whether or not the exemption had been paid, but no details on income, wealth, family status, etc. I fundamentally disagree that earning money or saving it should be taxable in and of itself. We should encourage that as much as possible. But others differ.
- vkou 2y ago
  They could be, but they aren't.

vharuck 2y ago

The NIH and CDC have incredibly detailed medical event data for infectious diseases, cancer diagnoses, and death certificates (which have a ton of data beyond "John Doe of New York City died of such and such on such and such date." It's how we have incredibly effective epidemiologists. Hospitals and non-profits use the data published by the government to make large decisions about equipment purchases, types of staff to hire, and community health programs to run. All the government professionals I've met who work with that data are very careful with it. The guiding star is "Never let anyone use our data to find out something about any individual. Then, if you still can, publish someone useful." >Meanwhile someone goes in there to try to break up this 30 year pile of technical debt and it's all lawsuits and handwaving theatrics to try to stop it. They only had to get security clearances and follow the Constitution. Clearances are routine, so shouldn't be a problem (unless the person being cleared is a problem). The Republicans control all branches of government, and cost-cutting is very popular among all voters, so writing a better budget is possible. Things won't collapse if they work on it until before the midterm elections. It just seems like Trump is testing how far he can walk along the path to tyranny.