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Advanced Magnet Manufacturing Begins in the United States
- ck2 2y ago"rare earth metals" aren't "rare" to the USA They are "rare" per ton of earth in general So it's just that mining them is so labor intensive and so toxic (uranium and other radioactivity) that it is expensive outside of places like China. Automate that with bots or whatnot and maybe we don't have to invade Canada and Greenland and start WW3
- analog31 2y agoI think we could just regulate the industry properly and then find out what the actual cost is. It may have to be subsidized. With that said, I wouldn't want any new mining operations started in my state.
- XorNot 2y agoI know you're being facetious but it's also worth spelling out somewhat explicitly as well: the US has never had a supply problem like that because through effective diplomacy and alliances it has commanded an excellent position to negotiate as a preferred trade partner through its world leading expertise in many areas and the export of its military spending as a security partner which up till very recently ensured alliances like NATO would prioritise these sorts of issues in its favour. The very recent turn of "we must literally own this territory" has been the surest possible way to create a crisis where none existed.
- Gibbon1 2y agoMy dad said there were a couple of countries that produced bauxite who thought they could be the OPEC of aluminum. And found out very quickly that bauxite isn't rare.
- perihelions 2y agoThe PRC is a near-monopoly on rare-earths production; the US is neither an ally nor security partner of China (to put it mildly). The US doesn't source these mineral from allies.
- lazide 2y agoIt used to, and used to have significant mines of it’s own.
- foota 2y agoFun fact: rare earth metals are actually not the rarest metals per ton in the earth's crust, it's just that they only very rarely form into deposits in the form of minerals, and so they're very disperse.
- defrost 2y agoFrom the PoV of Alchemists they rarely (ie. never for the most part) appear as unbound elements in nature. They are elements that require a lot of chemical processing to seperate and isolate. The downside is that many of those processes generate a lot of toxic waste that requires (but often never receives) after treatment to neutralise. Hence reports of dams of low level radioactive waste and so forth associate with rare earth processing (not so much mining as the concentrates are often mined and then shipped elsewhere for processing). eg: https://www.benarnews.org/english/news/malaysian/rare-earths-10242023150651.html https://www.benarnews.org/english/news/malaysian/rare-earths... has been an on again, off again relationship for a decade and a half now due to the waste piling up.
- s0rce 2y agoI had some of element Tm in the lab the other day (not pure form), had to go look up the name as I had never come across it before.
- jillesvangurp 2y agoI think the word 'rare' in rare earths here is merely implies expensive. That's why having cheap alternatives is such a big deal. Interesting to note that there is quite big movement towards rare earth free electrical motors in the last few years that rely only on cheap, readily available materials. Some expect that to grab up to 30% of the market in about a decade. Similar technology is also being used for creating wind generators that don't depend on these expensive/rare materials.
- jjk166 2y agoNo, 'rare' in this case means dilute. They were named this back at a time when there were few uses for the substances and they were generally considered worthless.
- shireboy 2y agoIt is an attractive industry, but sometimes can be repulsive.
- slater 2y ago[flagged]
- sigpwned 2y agoYou don't have a monopoley on humor, you know.
- shireboy 2y agoI know. I like to think my compass points my humor in the right direction, but maybe it got turned around.
- sQL_inject 2y agoYou're way outside your field buddy, stick to something else.
- richk449 2y agoIt seems amazing it has taken this long. Electric motors are so critical to national security, as well as the US economy. I keep wondering if these folks have a realistic alternative: https://www.nironmagnetics.com/ https://www.nironmagnetics.com/ (They claim high performance rare earth free magnets.)
- adrian_b 2y agoThere have passed too many years since they have claimed that they know how to make iron nitride magnets, but no commercial products have appeared. The iron nitride magnets require a special crystal structure, which is not the most stable for that material, so it is difficult to find processing methods so that the material will have that crystal structure and even if the structure is produced, it might revert in time to a more stable structure, which does not have the desired magnetic properties. Like typical for such startups, that company does not say anything about which are the roadblocks that have prevented them for so many years to make iron nitride magnets until now, but it is pretty certain that their patents are bogus and the methods described there have not been usable for making what they claim to be able to make.
- pfdietz 2y agoMore interesting to me is Niron Magnetics, mentioned in the article, which is commercializing magnets based on a particular phase of iron nitride. https://www.nironmagnetics.com/ https://www.nironmagnetics.com/
- adrian_b 2y agoI doubt that they are commercializing anything. I see on their site now that they are building a plant that is expected to produce 5 (five) tons of magnets per year (compared to 1500 t/year for the plant discussed in the article or with 25000 t/year for the biggest of the around 300 Chinese plants). Such a small-scale production might be enough only to make samples to distribute to potential customers, to convince them to design products using such magnets. I will be pleasantly surprised when Niron Magnetics will be able to produce even those 5 tons of magnets. I have already forgotten how many years have passed since I have seen for the first time Niron Magnetics claiming that they will start soon the production of iron nitride magnets. Certainly there are more than 5 years since then, perhaps almost 10 years. Their first patents, in which they have claimed to know how to make iron nitride, have been issued 10 years ago. Their inability to actually produce such magnets demonstrate that at least the claims of the first patents were false. The language that is used in patent law is that patents "teach" how to do something that was unknown and non-obvious for those who were experts in prior art. I am pretty sure that the patents of Niron Magnetics do not teach anything, but they are the kind of patents filed by those who want to do something, but they have no idea how to do it, so they file bogus patents with overly broad and inaccurate claims, as a preventive strike used to block any competitors to introduce that kind of products, in order to gain for themselves time to actually discover how to make in reality what they want, in a very different way than described in their fictitious patents. If iron nitride magnets are indeed possible, then it is likely that Niron Magnetics has delayed by many years their use in practice, by being unable to develop such materials themselves, but simultaneously preventing others to do this.
- what-the-grump 2y agoThey just need to hoodwink an investor to give them enough money to buy a factory producing magnets in China. Then they are going to slowly back way from their claims of doing anything special. If they do not, they will run out of money and close after expending whatever capital they have. Rinse and repeat and brrr goes the money printer.
- pbmonster 2y agoAny motor experts here? Why are they chasing rare earth metals in the first place? In the end, the mines are going to be in China anyway, right? Why don't we design around rare earth magnets in the first place? Synchronous reluctance motors where torque density isn't a strict requirement, and brushless separately excited synchronous motors (synchro motor with electromagnets on the rotor) for high torque/energy density applications?
- adrian_b 2y agoThose kinds of motors are usable, but they have a lower energy efficiency than permanent-magnet motors, which causes a lower range for an electric vehicle. In all applications where it is possible to use motors without permanent magnets, that is usually done, because the motors without permanent magnets are normally cheaper.
- Zamiel_Snawley 2y agoElectromagnets for the rotor cause significantly more heating, exactly where it is hardest cool, and where the heat is most likely to seep into the load. For high torque density applications, heat dissipation is often the limiting factor on duty cycle. Also, the slip rings capable of passing high current to an electromagnet rotor are expensive and less robust than permanent magnets. Essentially: it’s possible but I haven’t seen an application where it’s practical.
- pwrson 2y ago[dead]
- pbmonster 2y ago> Also, the slip rings capable of passing high current to an electromagnet rotor are expensive and less robust than permanent magnets. The new designs are all inductively coupled, i.e. they have a rotating transformer coil built into the shaft. No brushes, no slip rings.
- Workaccount2 2y ago
- Animats 2y agoMP Minerals got their magnet plant going. Good. MP Minerals operates the Mountain Pass, CA rare earths mine. This was the largest rare earths mine in the world at one time. After several shutdowns and two bankruptcies due to low rare earth prices, MP Minerals bought the mine in 2017 and had it producing ore in 2020. The mine already had a "beneficiation" plant, where raw ore goes in and a mix of rare earth elements, plus lots of unwanted tailings, come out. Unlike the plants in China, they have a process that doesn't require huge settlement ponds and vast amounts of water, so it doesn't create too much of a mess. It's mostly a mechanical process, and processes huge volumes of ore, yielding a much smaller volume of concentrate. What comes out of the benficiation plant needs more separation. That had to be sent to China to be refined, because there were no plants to do the separation in the US. So MP Minerals got the US Department of Defense to fund a separation plant at Mountain Pass. This separates the different rare earths. It's mostly a chemical process. Again, what comes out is a lot less volume than goes in. The Mountain Pass separation plant has been working for a few years now. What comes out of the separation plant needs more purification and alloying. That's what the new plant in Texas does. That's a modest sized facility in an industrial park. What comes out is metal ready to be formed into magnets. That completes the supply chain. Owning the whole supply chain insulates MP Minerals from trouble in the middle stages. Such as China's 2024 ban on export of rare earth processing technology.[1] Now that they have the whole supply chain working, they can increase production if desired. It's much easier to duplicate a plant than make a new one for a new process. [1] https://www.csis.org/analysis/what-chinas-ban-rare-earths-processing-technology-exports-means https://www.csis.org/analysis/what-chinas-ban-rare-earths-pr...
- roenxi 2y ago> After several shutdowns and two bankruptcies due to low rare earth prices... It's important to contextualise this, it is probably the most important part of the entire story. Rare earths aren't all that rare, they generally have a crustal abundance comparable to copper. The question of where rare earth mining & processing happens is mainly one of price. Or, accounting for second order effects, a question of environmental regulations.
- bombcar 2y ago
- ggm 2y agoWe're not looking for autarky, we're looking for strategic assurances and avoidance of dependency with adversarial consequences. It annoys me economic arguments delayed work to expand Australian rare earth sources, it would have been good not to get caught behind "cheaper is best" decision logic. The same logic shut down our microelectronics industry, local manufacturing, strategic policy in oil reserves and refining. Sure. Cheaper is great.. right up until it isn't because somebody else wants an outcome without price.
- throwaway422432 2y agoIt's happening but slowly. Lynas Rare Earths who are the largest miner and processor outside of China are in the initial stages of building a plant in Texas (which includes funding from the DoD). They currently have plants in Kalgoorlie and Malaysia, but not end-to-end making magnets. Iluka have also secured the additional funding required for a processing plant in Australia and have deals with other miners for feed stock once they get going. Disclaimer: I own shares in the above two and others and all currently at a loss on my initial investments.
- BLKNSLVR 2y agoSo if I get in at your loss level, then I'll always be less down than you. "Less down" seems to be my preferred position.
- mikewarot 2y agoPerhaps it was a bad idea to let it stop happening in the US[1] in the first place? I have acquaintances who told me about this more than a decade ago. We thought it was stupid to let the production lines go then... and obviously, we were right. [1] https://www.counterpunch.org/2006/04/07/the-saga-of-magnequench/ https://www.counterpunch.org/2006/04/07/the-saga-of-magneque...
- droopyEyelids 2y agoIts easy to throw around words like “stupid” on the internet, especially with hindsight, but how could it have been anything but a complex decision estimating values for many variables? Would they have been able to hit a competitive price while maintaining environmental regs and paying a domestic workforce, would china end up the only other supplier in the world? Can government subsidies be counted on to last multiple administrations?
- BLKNSLVR 2y agoStrong disagree, this was obvious if not from the very start, then as soon as the first company that relocated manufacturing started making ridiculous profits. Keeping the retail prices the same whilst more-than-decimating the manufacturing cost? How could it not be obvious that anyone and everyone would follow once there was a proof of concept. When capitalism is measured on incredibly short term performance, with no consideration of long term sustainability or national interest or maintenance of national skills and capabilities. This has been going on since well before the world wide web became accessible to most Western households. Nike started doing it in the 70s and they weren't the first. I've long been confused* to why there was no legislation to prevent "local" companies from giving away the keys to their kingdoms to foreign countries. *Not really, politicians are just as short-term motivated as business owners. It made sense. But the chickens are now coming home to roost, and they're shitting all over the place and the unprecedented profits have been spent on fancy plastic toys (that are now mostly landfill) instead of any kind of preparation for the inevitable tsunami of chicken shit.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
- seventytwo 2y agoGreat!
- Sporktacular 2y agoThis article just kind of assumes the reader should prefer US firms succeed in making these magnets over Chinese firms. I'm not sure why I should prefer that if China do it cheaper and better. Some nationalistic readers or those concerned about US national security and supply chains might care. Or maybe the US should just maintain better trade relations, and vote to do so.
- BLKNSLVR 2y agoIt's definitely rewriting of history / priorities based on the current political climate. 30 years ago the opposite was celebrated as the saviour of American capitalism (by short term thinking people who are probably billionaires now, and therefore, as individuals, insulated against any of the '30 years later' repercussions). The US is going to need to naturalise all of its illegal immigrants to have a chance at ramping up local manufacturing.
- rangestransform 2y agoThe US could also have a migrant worker program a la Singapore
- gkanai 2y agoTime and time again we see the US moving production of some key product or material overseas only to regret that decision a number of years later. It happens over and over again. Market forces are great, but should be ignored in key sectors that are important for national security. That goes for rare earth minerals or shipbuilding or key supplies for munitions or PPE that we needed during the pandemic, (etc.)
- yardie 2y agoThe free market will always chose to go to the places for the cheapest material and labor. There is no strategy to it. But, there are some industries the US have placed strategic value on and will subsidize no matter the cost. - USPS - literally written into the Constitution - Passenger rail - Amtrak keeps pudding along even though financially it doesn’t make sense. - Merchant marines - cargo is cheap. And cheaper in flag countries with lax labor rules. Yet, we maintain a expensive flotilla.
- lotsofpulp 2y agoI wonder if the US does or would subsidize USPS. USPS is required to earn enough money to pay for itself, which it mostly does by delivering advertising to people’s mailboxes.
- pclmulqdq 2y agoThe USPS isn't subsidized with money, but it has a lot of special treatment legally. Things like "the inside of your mailbox becomes federal property" and the office of the postmaster general come to mind. Other than that, as you said, the USPS is supposed to earn enough to pay for itself, which means that mail in cities tends to subsidize rural services.
- oskarkk 2y ago> which means that mail in cities tends to subsidize rural services Do USPS or other mail services in the US have pricing that depends on location? In Poland where I live (much smaller, more uniformly populated and not federal country), I've seen no such things. The prices are the same everywhere, so it seems to me that in every private, commercial mail service the cities kinda subsidize the rural areas.
- throwintp 2y agoThanks to Bill Clinton America can celebrate one or two manufacturing plants it gets..
- brcmthrowaway 2y agoWait, those strong neodymium magnets are only produced in China?!
- doctorplop 2y agoThere is a European producer, the German/Finnish VAC Group. But they also get their raw materials from China (I think). Neodymium magnets are fascinating: they have enabled much smaller and more efficient elevator engines, used as undulators in synchroton x-ray sources, and many other places.
- ttoinou 2y agoI bought neodymium magnet tiny balls (toys) from China as far back as like 2008, and it was the only way to get them in Europe I believe
- physicsguy 2y agoThis was a key thing that was talked about when I was doing my doctorate in this area. There has been a lot of research in magnet manufacturing without the difficult to source metals coming from abroad.
- londons_explore 2y ago> but rather in a unique process based on recycling the materials from discarded magnets. Aka buying magnets from China, crushing them, then reforming them into "American made" magnets. We've been doing the same with steel for over a decade now. It's a good way around tariffs and origin laws.