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When they mention the Sentinelese who inhabit North Sentinel Island in the Indian Ocean as being uncontacted they have to ignore the shipwreck in the inlet on t

When they mention the Sentinelese who inhabit North Sentinel Island in the Indian Ocean as being uncontacted they have to ignore the shipwreck in the inlet on the northwest end of the island. I'm guessing that the mariners who found themselves on the island did not make a very good first impression as representatives of the larger outside world and that this contributed to the hostility towards outsiders that the Sentinelese exhibit. I know there was a bible-thumper a few years back who found himself skewered while trying to help the North Sentinelese find Jesus. That seems like a predictable outcome when you consider that the inhabitants have to be closer to everything that is real and important on their island than we modern people will ever be and likely have their constructs about how the world works so they don't need someone else's Jesus to keep them grounded. Interestingly enough, the only place where I saw any clear indication that the island was inhabited was on the north end of the island near the inlet where the ship is run aground and sunk. Just north of the tree line you can clearly see a well-worn path leading from the woods east of the wreck to the inlet. I'll bet they keep a weather eye out for any new contraptions not of their own making.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
davidw 2y ago
Path on North Sentinel island: https://www.google.com/maps/@11.5920005,92.2195112,225a,35y,317.44h,23.27t/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIwNS4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@11.5920005,92.2195112,225a,35y,...
- doodlebugging 2y ago
  Thanks for doing something I should've done myself. Popping out to Google Maps gives a higher resolution view of the island and with that one can easily pick out a network of trails around the island though I haven't seen clear indications of settlements yet. I think you can even see on the east side of the island at least one man-made fish trap similar to those found in other parts of the world. It's clear that they travel all over the island making use of the resources available. I wonder whether anyone has reported seeing them swim. Some of the trails lead to small inlets and across to small islets on the perimeter which are now isolated from the main island. Anyway, thanks for this post. It enhances the comment above.
  - davidw 2y ago
    The tree canopy looks to be pretty thick to make out any settlements, at least for my eyes.
    - doodlebugging 2y ago
      According to the book that I have been reading that was linked in a reply that has since been deleted, North Sentinel Island is relatively flat and has a coral base, unlike the other Andaman Islands which are remnants of an eroded and submerged island chain that existed offshore of Burma, Thailand, etc. The vegetation also is different in that the trees are very tall and the canopy restricts light to the extent that there is not as much undergrowth on NSI as on neighboring islands so it is likely that any structures they build from the available wood are concealed under the forest canopy. There are quite a few trails visible on Google Earth and each tails out in the forest not far off of the beaches though some are visible in areas noted on the maps as being marshes. Very interesting place but from the history documented in the book, it is pretty clear that the inhabitants wish to be left alone and that contact with outsiders has caused them and natives on neighboring islands much hardship since first contact several centuries ago. One noteworthy thing is that it is simply not accurate to characterize them as uncontacted. It is better to describe them as isolated and vulnerable and therefore worthy of any protections we can offer even if that means to leave them to their own devices. The book was written after the great Christmas quake and tsunami in 2004 and is partially available thru the wayback machine. [0] There's a lot to take in and some chapters don't exist there but it is a deep rabbit hole to tumble into. Very interesting stuff with a nice accounting of historical contacts with people on many of the islands out there. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20070406235017/http://www.andaman.org/BOOK/text-group-BodyChapters.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20070406235017/http://www.andama...
- arrowsmith 2y ago
  And here's the shipwreck: https://www.google.com/maps/place/North+Sentinel+Island/@11.5934843,92.2121616,151m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x30863a35c7c1b4e1:0x22f2e4fd1e2aa9c5!8m2!3d11.5503652!4d92.2335066!16zL20vMDR0anpf?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIwNS4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/place/North+Sentinel+Island/@11.... Anyone know the story of this shipwreck? Wikipedia says that "Nineveh, an Indian merchant ship, was wrecked on a reef near the island" in 1867 - is this it? I have my doubts because a) this shipwreck is not "near" the island, it's practically ashore on the island and b) the wreck looks reasonably intact. Wouldn't a submerged, 150-year old wooden ship have completely rotted away by now?
narrator 2y ago
They are hostile to outsiders because they have no immunity to modern diseases and in the past, each time someone tried to contact them a lot of them died.
- doodlebugging 2y ago
  This probably plays into their desire to remain isolated. If every time some wanderer landed on their island a lot of their people died then it makes sense that they would not welcome anyone from outside.
ellyagg 2y ago
How do you envision the castaways made a bad impression? It's not like every band of explorers immediately tries to open a Walmart or something. My guess is that the dominant society anywhere will make you pay for not knowing their culture.
- doodlebugging 2y ago
  I think the comment about newcomers bringing diseases that killed many of their people would explain why they don't welcome outsiders.
- FredPret 2y ago
  Neal Stephenson wrote a book about Vikings discovering a Wal-Mart via time travel, and boy do they like it. (rise and fall of D.O.D.O.)
  - cpursley 2y ago
    Sold! Thank you for pressing the order button on my next book ;)
xadhominemx 2y ago
“the inhabitants have to be closer to everything that is real and important on their island than we modern people will ever be and likely have” They undoubtedly have their own absurd mythology describing their origins and the workings of the universe
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- doodlebugging 2y ago
  As they should. That is how people maintain generations-long connections to ancestors and group history, whether it be an oral tradition in songs or stories or a set of written tales.
  - xadhominemx 2y ago
    Or maybe they rape and beat their woman, suffer from high infant mortality and often die excruciating deaths after moderate injuries like a broken arm or cut.
    - cwmoore 2y ago
      Maybe Jesus bringing them penicillin and condoms is worse somehow
    - mplewis 2y ago
      [flagged]
    - doodlebugging 2y ago
      If you're hoping to fill the open position vacated by bible-thumping Jesus I'm sorry to inform you that the position will apparently remain open for the forseeable future. Perhaps your skills are more useful in Texas or in the southern US where I understand that problems like you describe are trending up.
      - 2y ago
tolerance 2y ago
You sound like an interesting fellow to converse with in line toward the gallows.
- doodlebugging 2y ago
  If I should ever find myself in a line like that I will be sure to remember to ask any observers if they are or if they know tolerance. Perhaps then we can have this conversation covering any subjects that you find interesting and in the process conjure enough of a distraction for the guards that we might make our escape to the freedom that we both no doubt deserve. Happy Trails.
AlotOfReading 2y ago
They've encountered and traded with people from outside the island, like Anstice Justin during contact attempts between the 80s and 2000s [0]. The direct contact attempts were halted in the 90s due to ethical/health concerns for the sentinelese though, so expeditions after that point were gift-giving missions to monitor and support friendly relations. They became more hostile to expeditions after some fishermen were killed on the island and recovery teams attempted to use helicopters to rescue the bodies before the islanders could bury them. [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/d44151-024-00213-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/d44151-024-00213-5
- doodlebugging 2y ago
  Thanks for the historical context. It makes sense that they would prefer not to interact with outsiders.
marc_abonce 2y ago
> the mariners who found themselves on the island did not make a very good first impression as representatives of the larger outside world and that this contributed to the hostility towards outsiders that the Sentinelese exhibit. The bad reputation that us outsiders have probably traces all the way back to the British intrusion into the island back in the XIXth century: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/north-sentinel-island-tribes-maurice-vidal-portman/675563/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/north-sent...
- doodlebugging 2y ago
  Thanks for that link. It doesn't reflect well on the British. A lot of colonial powers had similar interactions with people they encountered leaving large parts of many cultures destroyed by the changes they were forced to make.
  - crossroadsguy 2y ago
    Well unlike some invaders like Mughals to Indian subcontinent, the Brits never intended to settle overseas, definitely not in India. They went everywhere to loot, destroy, and leave when there was nothing more to loot or it was too tough to maintain control. > doesn't reflect well on the British Shocking!
    - oa335 2y ago
      > Brits never intended to settle overseas What about Canada, United States, Australia, New Zealand, and several Caribbean Islands?
      - OJFord 2y ago
        I think GP's definition of 'settle' that excludes 89 years of British Raj^ must certainly also exclude Australia, penal colony. ^which comprised many atrocities yes, but also expat rulers/officials, and building/development.
      - 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

davidw 2y ago

Path on North Sentinel island: https://www.google.com/maps/@11.5920005,92.2195112,225a,35y,317.44h,23.27t/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e4?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIwNS4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@11.5920005,92.2195112,225a,35y,...

doodlebugging 2y ago
Thanks for doing something I should've done myself. Popping out to Google Maps gives a higher resolution view of the island and with that one can easily pick out a network of trails around the island though I haven't seen clear indications of settlements yet. I think you can even see on the east side of the island at least one man-made fish trap similar to those found in other parts of the world. It's clear that they travel all over the island making use of the resources available. I wonder whether anyone has reported seeing them swim. Some of the trails lead to small inlets and across to small islets on the perimeter which are now isolated from the main island. Anyway, thanks for this post. It enhances the comment above.
- davidw 2y ago
  The tree canopy looks to be pretty thick to make out any settlements, at least for my eyes.
  - doodlebugging 2y ago
    According to the book that I have been reading that was linked in a reply that has since been deleted, North Sentinel Island is relatively flat and has a coral base, unlike the other Andaman Islands which are remnants of an eroded and submerged island chain that existed offshore of Burma, Thailand, etc. The vegetation also is different in that the trees are very tall and the canopy restricts light to the extent that there is not as much undergrowth on NSI as on neighboring islands so it is likely that any structures they build from the available wood are concealed under the forest canopy. There are quite a few trails visible on Google Earth and each tails out in the forest not far off of the beaches though some are visible in areas noted on the maps as being marshes. Very interesting place but from the history documented in the book, it is pretty clear that the inhabitants wish to be left alone and that contact with outsiders has caused them and natives on neighboring islands much hardship since first contact several centuries ago. One noteworthy thing is that it is simply not accurate to characterize them as uncontacted. It is better to describe them as isolated and vulnerable and therefore worthy of any protections we can offer even if that means to leave them to their own devices. The book was written after the great Christmas quake and tsunami in 2004 and is partially available thru the wayback machine. [0] There's a lot to take in and some chapters don't exist there but it is a deep rabbit hole to tumble into. Very interesting stuff with a nice accounting of historical contacts with people on many of the islands out there. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20070406235017/http://www.andaman.org/BOOK/text-group-BodyChapters.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20070406235017/http://www.andama...
arrowsmith 2y ago
And here's the shipwreck: https://www.google.com/maps/place/North+Sentinel+Island/@11.5934843,92.2121616,151m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x30863a35c7c1b4e1:0x22f2e4fd1e2aa9c5!8m2!3d11.5503652!4d92.2335066!16zL20vMDR0anpf?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDIwNS4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/place/North+Sentinel+Island/@11.... Anyone know the story of this shipwreck? Wikipedia says that "Nineveh, an Indian merchant ship, was wrecked on a reef near the island" in 1867 - is this it? I have my doubts because a) this shipwreck is not "near" the island, it's practically ashore on the island and b) the wreck looks reasonably intact. Wouldn't a submerged, 150-year old wooden ship have completely rotted away by now?

narrator 2y ago

They are hostile to outsiders because they have no immunity to modern diseases and in the past, each time someone tried to contact them a lot of them died.

doodlebugging 2y ago
This probably plays into their desire to remain isolated. If every time some wanderer landed on their island a lot of their people died then it makes sense that they would not welcome anyone from outside.

ellyagg 2y ago

How do you envision the castaways made a bad impression? It's not like every band of explorers immediately tries to open a Walmart or something. My guess is that the dominant society anywhere will make you pay for not knowing their culture.

doodlebugging 2y ago
I think the comment about newcomers bringing diseases that killed many of their people would explain why they don't welcome outsiders.
FredPret 2y ago
Neal Stephenson wrote a book about Vikings discovering a Wal-Mart via time travel, and boy do they like it. (rise and fall of D.O.D.O.)
- cpursley 2y ago
  Sold! Thank you for pressing the order button on my next book ;)

xadhominemx 2y ago

“the inhabitants have to be closer to everything that is real and important on their island than we modern people will ever be and likely have” They undoubtedly have their own absurd mythology describing their origins and the workings of the universe

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
doodlebugging 2y ago
As they should. That is how people maintain generations-long connections to ancestors and group history, whether it be an oral tradition in songs or stories or a set of written tales.
- xadhominemx 2y ago
  Or maybe they rape and beat their woman, suffer from high infant mortality and often die excruciating deaths after moderate injuries like a broken arm or cut.
  - cwmoore 2y ago
    Maybe Jesus bringing them penicillin and condoms is worse somehow
  - mplewis 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - doodlebugging 2y ago
    If you're hoping to fill the open position vacated by bible-thumping Jesus I'm sorry to inform you that the position will apparently remain open for the forseeable future. Perhaps your skills are more useful in Texas or in the southern US where I understand that problems like you describe are trending up.
    - 2y ago

tolerance 2y ago

You sound like an interesting fellow to converse with in line toward the gallows.

doodlebugging 2y ago
If I should ever find myself in a line like that I will be sure to remember to ask any observers if they are or if they know tolerance. Perhaps then we can have this conversation covering any subjects that you find interesting and in the process conjure enough of a distraction for the guards that we might make our escape to the freedom that we both no doubt deserve. Happy Trails.

AlotOfReading 2y ago

They've encountered and traded with people from outside the island, like Anstice Justin during contact attempts between the 80s and 2000s [0]. The direct contact attempts were halted in the 90s due to ethical/health concerns for the sentinelese though, so expeditions after that point were gift-giving missions to monitor and support friendly relations. They became more hostile to expeditions after some fishermen were killed on the island and recovery teams attempted to use helicopters to rescue the bodies before the islanders could bury them. [0] https://www.nature.com/articles/d44151-024-00213-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/d44151-024-00213-5

doodlebugging 2y ago
Thanks for the historical context. It makes sense that they would prefer not to interact with outsiders.

marc_abonce 2y ago

> the mariners who found themselves on the island did not make a very good first impression as representatives of the larger outside world and that this contributed to the hostility towards outsiders that the Sentinelese exhibit. The bad reputation that us outsiders have probably traces all the way back to the British intrusion into the island back in the XIXth century: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/north-sentinel-island-tribes-maurice-vidal-portman/675563/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/north-sent...

doodlebugging 2y ago
Thanks for that link. It doesn't reflect well on the British. A lot of colonial powers had similar interactions with people they encountered leaving large parts of many cultures destroyed by the changes they were forced to make.
- crossroadsguy 2y ago
  Well unlike some invaders like Mughals to Indian subcontinent, the Brits never intended to settle overseas, definitely not in India. They went everywhere to loot, destroy, and leave when there was nothing more to loot or it was too tough to maintain control. > doesn't reflect well on the British Shocking!
  - oa335 2y ago
    > Brits never intended to settle overseas What about Canada, United States, Australia, New Zealand, and several Caribbean Islands?
    - OJFord 2y ago
      I think GP's definition of 'settle' that excludes 89 years of British Raj^ must certainly also exclude Australia, penal colony. ^which comprised many atrocities yes, but also expat rulers/officials, and building/development.
    - 2y ago