3 ms·

Night owl behavior could hurt mental health, sleep study finds

45 points by pseudolus 2y ago

jug 2y ago
I only skimmed the text, but wonder if this study had controls for their social lives and mental health. These behaviors are also on their own indicative of depression, because it often interferes with sleep patterns. It becomes a causation/correlation issue?
- layer8 2y ago
  The article states: “They also tested the possibility that it was poor mental health causing people to stay up late, not the other way around. They tracked a subset of participants who had no previous diagnosis of a mental disorder for the next eight years. During that time, night owls who slept late were the most likely to develop a mental health disorder.”
  - s1mplicissimus 2y ago
    A diagnosis requires crossing a certain threshold of suffering to even get diagnosed, also stigma is a reason many people still refrain from seeking diagnosis. the night owls might just not yet have been diagnosed at the time of this study
southernplaces7 2y ago
These studies get tedious with their variable, often contradictory and frequently poorly-structured methodologies. One sees some that claim night owls as abnormally intelligent and creative people, and then others claiming the above as this title does. All possibly failing to take into account that a whole pile of coinciding factors in certain people who stay up late may be responsible for poor mental health, while not necessarily being related to the hours in which one sleeps.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  Such is the nature of science.
  - b112 2y ago
    I'd change to "social sciences". Issues parent mentioned seem to be the rule with soft sciences research, the exception with hard sciences.
    - maxmynter95 2y ago
      The study in question is a medical study. There are too many replicating findings to call it “the rule” with social sciences. It’s more that social systems are inherently chaotic, context dependent, multi causal, etc. Thats why they don’t idealize as well.
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      No it’s not.
meander_water 2y ago
As someone who suffers from depression, I can anecdotally attest to the phenomenon of "Mind after Midnight" [0] mentioned in the study. And I'm a self-confessed night owl. It's remarkable how things just fall apart in your mind at night, and just go back to normal the next morning (most of the time). [0] https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/network-physiology/articles/10.3389/fnetp.2021.830338/full https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/network-physiology/arti...
- b112 2y ago
  That sounds like a glucose thing. Try eating a piece of toast, or a few nuts, or some small other snack. Sleep will return in an hour or so. (suggestions may not carry to others, but why not try?)
- funnym0nk3y 2y ago
  On the other hand there is significant improvement in many people with depression at night. In the morning however life looks dark again. Some argue that this is an indicator for a different subtype of depression.
  - doubled112 2y ago
    I do get happier at night, but as far as I can tell, it is because I'm finally by myself to be left alone. When the sun rises, so do the number of requests.
    - Schiendelman 2y ago
      As a PM, I have a recommendation: 1) Take time away from devices and notifications. Potentially also turn your notifications off entirely and start checking only at scheduled times (or periods within your SLA if you're supporting people). 2) Try early mornings. I started getting up at 4:30, lifting, and meditating before ever looking at tech. In many cases I still look at my plan for the day before others work!
      - 2y ago
jokoon 2y ago
I had sleeping problem as a teen Now I have very strict discipline when it comes to sleep. Once it's midnight, I decide it's time to go to bed, even if I'm not tired. There are still few times when i go at 1am or 2am, but it's rare.
funnym0nk3y 2y ago
It has long been known that eveningness correlates with various mental health conditions. In addition sleep is used as a marker for mental state. Usually depression improves in the evening, sometimes very specifically at dawn. So does anxiety and OCD for some. To the point where there are little to no symptoms. In the morning however, the illness is back in full force. There are numerous studies on the involvement of the circadian clock in depression and bipolar disorder. Many agents treating those conditions alter the circadian clock.
- pen2l 2y ago
  Interested in reading more about this, that symptoms are more aggressive in the morning, can you refer to studies if you were thinking of some in particular?
  - funnym0nk3y 2y ago
    Unfortunately I don't have specific studies at hand right now. However depression was classified as melancholic and atypical. Melancholic depression is marked by pronounced diurnal mood variation among other things. There was one study that measured negative and positive affect in MDD and healthy controls. It was shown that the mood variation is related to positive affect in MDD. That pattern inspired a short term treatment for MDD where sleep is limited or completely omitted. That has a very pronounced antidepressant effect in many and can even trigger mania. Also, I have seen lots of cases among friends and family that show that behaviour. EDIT: To clarify: This is true in a subset of patients. It is not a necessary condition.
huepfebein 2y ago
> "Maybe there are fewer social constraints late at night because you have fewer people around who are awake," Zeitzer said. That is especially true in places like the United States and the United Kingdom, where people tend to be more isolated in the evenings. In a Mediterranean culture, where nights are more gregarious, staying up might even be good for mental health. This is the only note on cultural norms in the entire article. Yet I wonder, how you can look at sleeping patterns and mental health without also considering the broader societal norms, especially in a (typical Western?) society where rising with the sun is seen as a virtue.
bdavbdav 2y ago
This was one of those things I’ve always just assumed to be true - bed earlier, wake earlier always seemed to be the better pathway to the mind of dynamic life I want, and that dynamic life seems to be a good pathway to better mental health.

45 points by pseudolus 2y ago

jug 2y ago

I only skimmed the text, but wonder if this study had controls for their social lives and mental health. These behaviors are also on their own indicative of depression, because it often interferes with sleep patterns. It becomes a causation/correlation issue?

layer8 2y ago
The article states: “They also tested the possibility that it was poor mental health causing people to stay up late, not the other way around. They tracked a subset of participants who had no previous diagnosis of a mental disorder for the next eight years. During that time, night owls who slept late were the most likely to develop a mental health disorder.”
- s1mplicissimus 2y ago
  A diagnosis requires crossing a certain threshold of suffering to even get diagnosed, also stigma is a reason many people still refrain from seeking diagnosis. the night owls might just not yet have been diagnosed at the time of this study

southernplaces7 2y ago

These studies get tedious with their variable, often contradictory and frequently poorly-structured methodologies. One sees some that claim night owls as abnormally intelligent and creative people, and then others claiming the above as this title does. All possibly failing to take into account that a whole pile of coinciding factors in certain people who stay up late may be responsible for poor mental health, while not necessarily being related to the hours in which one sleeps.

llamaimperative 2y ago
Such is the nature of science.
- b112 2y ago
  I'd change to "social sciences". Issues parent mentioned seem to be the rule with soft sciences research, the exception with hard sciences.
  - maxmynter95 2y ago
    The study in question is a medical study. There are too many replicating findings to call it “the rule” with social sciences. It’s more that social systems are inherently chaotic, context dependent, multi causal, etc. Thats why they don’t idealize as well.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    No it’s not.

meander_water 2y ago

As someone who suffers from depression, I can anecdotally attest to the phenomenon of "Mind after Midnight" [0] mentioned in the study. And I'm a self-confessed night owl. It's remarkable how things just fall apart in your mind at night, and just go back to normal the next morning (most of the time). [0] https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/network-physiology/articles/10.3389/fnetp.2021.830338/full https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/network-physiology/arti...

b112 2y ago
That sounds like a glucose thing. Try eating a piece of toast, or a few nuts, or some small other snack. Sleep will return in an hour or so. (suggestions may not carry to others, but why not try?)
funnym0nk3y 2y ago
On the other hand there is significant improvement in many people with depression at night. In the morning however life looks dark again. Some argue that this is an indicator for a different subtype of depression.
- doubled112 2y ago
  I do get happier at night, but as far as I can tell, it is because I'm finally by myself to be left alone. When the sun rises, so do the number of requests.
  - Schiendelman 2y ago
    As a PM, I have a recommendation: 1) Take time away from devices and notifications. Potentially also turn your notifications off entirely and start checking only at scheduled times (or periods within your SLA if you're supporting people). 2) Try early mornings. I started getting up at 4:30, lifting, and meditating before ever looking at tech. In many cases I still look at my plan for the day before others work!
    - 2y ago

jokoon 2y ago

I had sleeping problem as a teen Now I have very strict discipline when it comes to sleep. Once it's midnight, I decide it's time to go to bed, even if I'm not tired. There are still few times when i go at 1am or 2am, but it's rare.

funnym0nk3y 2y ago

It has long been known that eveningness correlates with various mental health conditions. In addition sleep is used as a marker for mental state. Usually depression improves in the evening, sometimes very specifically at dawn. So does anxiety and OCD for some. To the point where there are little to no symptoms. In the morning however, the illness is back in full force. There are numerous studies on the involvement of the circadian clock in depression and bipolar disorder. Many agents treating those conditions alter the circadian clock.

pen2l 2y ago
Interested in reading more about this, that symptoms are more aggressive in the morning, can you refer to studies if you were thinking of some in particular?
- funnym0nk3y 2y ago
  Unfortunately I don't have specific studies at hand right now. However depression was classified as melancholic and atypical. Melancholic depression is marked by pronounced diurnal mood variation among other things. There was one study that measured negative and positive affect in MDD and healthy controls. It was shown that the mood variation is related to positive affect in MDD. That pattern inspired a short term treatment for MDD where sleep is limited or completely omitted. That has a very pronounced antidepressant effect in many and can even trigger mania. Also, I have seen lots of cases among friends and family that show that behaviour. EDIT: To clarify: This is true in a subset of patients. It is not a necessary condition.

huepfebein 2y ago

> "Maybe there are fewer social constraints late at night because you have fewer people around who are awake," Zeitzer said. That is especially true in places like the United States and the United Kingdom, where people tend to be more isolated in the evenings. In a Mediterranean culture, where nights are more gregarious, staying up might even be good for mental health. This is the only note on cultural norms in the entire article. Yet I wonder, how you can look at sleeping patterns and mental health without also considering the broader societal norms, especially in a (typical Western?) society where rising with the sun is seen as a virtue.

bdavbdav 2y ago

This was one of those things I’ve always just assumed to be true - bed earlier, wake earlier always seemed to be the better pathway to the mind of dynamic life I want, and that dynamic life seems to be a good pathway to better mental health.