4 ms·

> The management do not want to risk investing in someone junior, lest they become senior and move to a different company. Agreed, but this is a legitimate con

> The management do not want to risk investing in someone junior, lest they become senior and move to a different company. Agreed, but this is a legitimate concern. In fact, it's almost a guarantee in my experience. The vast majority of people, myself included, do not stay at the same company long-term anymore. I mostly blame The company's ridiculous HR policies around salaries and promotions. For this. They have built a system in which if you want a promotion or raise you typically have to leave the company. However, that does not change the reality that most Juniors will not stick around long enough to become seniors. I don't know what the solution is, but we definitely need one.

chii 2y ago
bring back the apprenticeship model, and stipulate that there's a cost to leaving the apprenticeship program until the company gets back X number of years of service in exchange for the apprenticeship perhaps.
- SkiFire13 2y ago
  The issue then becomes that if the apprenticeship is not teaching you anything then you're stuck and likely underpaid with a bad company for X years.
- freedomben 2y ago
  This is acutally somewhat interesting. I definitely don't want to bring back the indentured servitude model (or indentured servititude lite which I worry would happen), but maybe with some creativity we could come up with something. Maybe a way for other companies to buy out a contract or something? My guess is there isn't really a way to get this done without some violations of freedom, so it probably isn't going to work, but it would be fun to brainstorm on.
A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y ago
<< The company's ridiculous HR policies around salaries and promotions I literally just had a conversation with my boss. You are near top of your band so can't do much in terms of raises. To his credit, he at least offered a path to the next level, but honestly.. that promotion should have happened after last year's crazy project. << if you want a promotion or raise you typically have to leave the company And this is mostly what they got, because people respond to incentives. I know my last move was upwards for 30% raise ( yes, I was clearly fairly underpaid ). << However, that does not change the reality that most Juniors will not stick around long enough to become seniors. My first real job kept me for 10 years. It could happen. Still, the tension between management and rank-and-file is real though.
- dclowd9901 2y ago
  What's funny is they'll end up raising the pay anyway. It's not like when you leave they can get someone for the same pay. They're going to have to pay as much to an incoming candidate as the next company will have to pay you. They're literally just banking on you either being too lazy or afraid to leave. So then the only loyal engineers they have are ones who aren't competent enough to leave.
  - freedomben 2y ago
    Exactly! I think they realize this too but justify it as a bet. They win the bet often enough that it makes it worth it, and the few times they lose are just accepted as risks of the business. It seems idiotic to me, just as idiotic as thinking of engineers as fungible.
dclowd9901 2y ago
The solution is quit letting accountants and managers determine pay raises and promotions. Then you might ask what are managers for. To this I have no answer.

chii 2y ago

bring back the apprenticeship model, and stipulate that there's a cost to leaving the apprenticeship program until the company gets back X number of years of service in exchange for the apprenticeship perhaps.

SkiFire13 2y ago
The issue then becomes that if the apprenticeship is not teaching you anything then you're stuck and likely underpaid with a bad company for X years.
freedomben 2y ago
This is acutally somewhat interesting. I definitely don't want to bring back the indentured servitude model (or indentured servititude lite which I worry would happen), but maybe with some creativity we could come up with something. Maybe a way for other companies to buy out a contract or something? My guess is there isn't really a way to get this done without some violations of freedom, so it probably isn't going to work, but it would be fun to brainstorm on.

A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y ago

<< The company's ridiculous HR policies around salaries and promotions I literally just had a conversation with my boss. You are near top of your band so can't do much in terms of raises. To his credit, he at least offered a path to the next level, but honestly.. that promotion should have happened after last year's crazy project. << if you want a promotion or raise you typically have to leave the company And this is mostly what they got, because people respond to incentives. I know my last move was upwards for 30% raise ( yes, I was clearly fairly underpaid ). << However, that does not change the reality that most Juniors will not stick around long enough to become seniors. My first real job kept me for 10 years. It could happen. Still, the tension between management and rank-and-file is real though.

dclowd9901 2y ago
What's funny is they'll end up raising the pay anyway. It's not like when you leave they can get someone for the same pay. They're going to have to pay as much to an incoming candidate as the next company will have to pay you. They're literally just banking on you either being too lazy or afraid to leave. So then the only loyal engineers they have are ones who aren't competent enough to leave.
- freedomben 2y ago
  Exactly! I think they realize this too but justify it as a bet. They win the bet often enough that it makes it worth it, and the few times they lose are just accepted as risks of the business. It seems idiotic to me, just as idiotic as thinking of engineers as fungible.

dclowd9901 2y ago

The solution is quit letting accountants and managers determine pay raises and promotions. Then you might ask what are managers for. To this I have no answer.