3 ms·

> hiring inquisitive, energetic juniors who didn't know shit about software engineering but wanted to learn everything about it the modern management culture h

by chii 2y ago

> hiring inquisitive, energetic juniors who didn't know shit about software engineering but wanted to learn everything about it the modern management culture has warped the apprenticeship/mentorship model (which is what's being described). The management do not want to risk investing in someone junior, lest they become senior and move to a different company. So the strategic thing to do is to hire someone already senior, and not pay the cost of the education/training.

xanderlewis 2y ago
At least it’s still preserved in academia.
- devwastaken 2y ago
  academia has overwhelmingly outputted low quality. corps dont invest because people hand over their taxes to uni’s instead. a bad deal in late stage capitalism.
  - _blk 2y ago
    Untapped resource: Homeschoolers and self-tought people. Of course that entails that you have to be willing to look at more than what school they went to in the résumé and your company is on board with non-accademic hires, but that's partly your job if you want a change.
sour-taste 2y ago
This is a problem of their own making: treat your employees well and they won't want to leave. Treat them like cattle you can extract value from and they will.
- Borg3 2y ago
  Yeah, but employees are just resources.. You can always hire new talent.. Until not ;)
freedomben 2y ago
> The management do not want to risk investing in someone junior, lest they become senior and move to a different company. Agreed, but this is a legitimate concern. In fact, it's almost a guarantee in my experience. The vast majority of people, myself included, do not stay at the same company long-term anymore. I mostly blame The company's ridiculous HR policies around salaries and promotions. For this. They have built a system in which if you want a promotion or raise you typically have to leave the company. However, that does not change the reality that most Juniors will not stick around long enough to become seniors. I don't know what the solution is, but we definitely need one.
- chii 2y ago
  bring back the apprenticeship model, and stipulate that there's a cost to leaving the apprenticeship program until the company gets back X number of years of service in exchange for the apprenticeship perhaps.
  - SkiFire13 2y ago
    The issue then becomes that if the apprenticeship is not teaching you anything then you're stuck and likely underpaid with a bad company for X years.
  - freedomben 2y ago
    This is acutally somewhat interesting. I definitely don't want to bring back the indentured servitude model (or indentured servititude lite which I worry would happen), but maybe with some creativity we could come up with something. Maybe a way for other companies to buy out a contract or something? My guess is there isn't really a way to get this done without some violations of freedom, so it probably isn't going to work, but it would be fun to brainstorm on.
- A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y ago
  << The company's ridiculous HR policies around salaries and promotions I literally just had a conversation with my boss. You are near top of your band so can't do much in terms of raises. To his credit, he at least offered a path to the next level, but honestly.. that promotion should have happened after last year's crazy project. << if you want a promotion or raise you typically have to leave the company And this is mostly what they got, because people respond to incentives. I know my last move was upwards for 30% raise ( yes, I was clearly fairly underpaid ). << However, that does not change the reality that most Juniors will not stick around long enough to become seniors. My first real job kept me for 10 years. It could happen. Still, the tension between management and rank-and-file is real though.

by chii 2y ago

xanderlewis 2y ago

At least it’s still preserved in academia.

devwastaken 2y ago
academia has overwhelmingly outputted low quality. corps dont invest because people hand over their taxes to uni’s instead. a bad deal in late stage capitalism.
- _blk 2y ago
  Untapped resource: Homeschoolers and self-tought people. Of course that entails that you have to be willing to look at more than what school they went to in the résumé and your company is on board with non-accademic hires, but that's partly your job if you want a change.

sour-taste 2y ago

This is a problem of their own making: treat your employees well and they won't want to leave. Treat them like cattle you can extract value from and they will.

Borg3 2y ago
Yeah, but employees are just resources.. You can always hire new talent.. Until not ;)

freedomben 2y ago

> The management do not want to risk investing in someone junior, lest they become senior and move to a different company. Agreed, but this is a legitimate concern. In fact, it's almost a guarantee in my experience. The vast majority of people, myself included, do not stay at the same company long-term anymore. I mostly blame The company's ridiculous HR policies around salaries and promotions. For this. They have built a system in which if you want a promotion or raise you typically have to leave the company. However, that does not change the reality that most Juniors will not stick around long enough to become seniors. I don't know what the solution is, but we definitely need one.

chii 2y ago
bring back the apprenticeship model, and stipulate that there's a cost to leaving the apprenticeship program until the company gets back X number of years of service in exchange for the apprenticeship perhaps.
- SkiFire13 2y ago
  The issue then becomes that if the apprenticeship is not teaching you anything then you're stuck and likely underpaid with a bad company for X years.
- freedomben 2y ago
  This is acutally somewhat interesting. I definitely don't want to bring back the indentured servitude model (or indentured servititude lite which I worry would happen), but maybe with some creativity we could come up with something. Maybe a way for other companies to buy out a contract or something? My guess is there isn't really a way to get this done without some violations of freedom, so it probably isn't going to work, but it would be fun to brainstorm on.
A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y ago
<< The company's ridiculous HR policies around salaries and promotions I literally just had a conversation with my boss. You are near top of your band so can't do much in terms of raises. To his credit, he at least offered a path to the next level, but honestly.. that promotion should have happened after last year's crazy project. << if you want a promotion or raise you typically have to leave the company And this is mostly what they got, because people respond to incentives. I know my last move was upwards for 30% raise ( yes, I was clearly fairly underpaid ). << However, that does not change the reality that most Juniors will not stick around long enough to become seniors. My first real job kept me for 10 years. It could happen. Still, the tension between management and rank-and-file is real though.