7 ms·

> VSCode is an IDE designed to suffocate the open source alternatives, so that they retain full strategic control What open source alternatives? Atom was a mes

> VSCode is an IDE designed to suffocate the open source alternatives, so that they retain full strategic control What open source alternatives? Atom was a mess that kept breaking. LSP plugins are now used in almost every featureful editor and have really made editing a lot better. You spent more time configuring Vim and Emacs than they saved you. Microsoft made a really good code editor that set a standard and likely took market share from their own (mostly Windows) Visual Studio. I do not use it anymore because of the creep of closed source plugins (+ they keep breaking my workflow) but I still think it is a great improvement. > I wish software was secure by design, like browsers are. Someone does not remember (or was not around) for the ActiveX or Flash days.

skydhash 2y ago
> You spent more time configuring Vim and Emacs than they saved you I trade whatever default workflow that VSCode and other IDEs are imposing for a better editing experience. And even the initial time investment is short these days due to the trove of config and tutorials online. After learning Vim, I ditched the files explorer and embrace the buffer workflow instead. Opening many windows at the same time to peek at multiple files, then switching to a new tab only if I don’t want to lose the current windows configuration. Then fuzzy searching for navigation, and using the quickfix list for search and errors. No friction from thought to action. Another plus for me. I have an emacs session opened for weeks now inside a VM on my desktop to work on a side project. Whatever the computer (laptops or said desktopj, it’s a quick ssh, then resuming the dtach sessiom and my workspace is ready. Multiple files opened (almost all of them), a postgresql REPL, Tasks runners, and a lot of packages (magit, project.el, consult,…) working together to streamline working on code.
- eru 2y ago
  > I trade whatever default workflow that VSCode and other IDEs are imposing for a better editing experience. And even the initial time investment is short these days due to the trove of config and tutorials online. You can configure VSCode with plugins. They aren't imposing any more defaults than vim or emacs do.
  - rootnod3 2y ago
    But several plugins on the VSCode side ar closed source.
    - eru 2y ago
      You can write non-open source emacs plugins, too.
      - fourthark 2y ago
        Emacs doesn't ship with them or nag you to install them.
      - csdreamer7 2y ago
        emacs specifically is not legal to distribute those plugins because of the GPL. Yes, you can be sued over this, likely won't, but you can be.
        eru 2y ago
        The GPL's use of linking is rather nebulous.
makeitdouble 2y ago
> What open source alternatives? This is part of parent's point IMHO. As VSCode is good enough, there is no oxygen for an open source effort to reinvent that wheel. At some point it will stale long enough that some bigger communities will want to tackle the challenge, but that won't be tomorrow. I see VSCode as a net positive, but I think it's healthy to keep in mind the embrance->extend bigger picture.
- dankle 2y ago
  Vscode is open source
  - arianvanp 2y ago
    The components the post is talking about are not.
  - jcgl 2y ago
    It’s not. Its core is open source, but the actual build that is branded VS Code and that people download is not. I’m not even referring to many of the key extensions that many people use, such as the SSH remote and Pylance, which themselves are proprietary. If you want to use only open source code, you need a rebuild like VSCodium.
- bogantech 2y ago
  > embrace->extend You people need to get a new catch phrase, hard to draw a connection between something MS created and "embrace, extend, extinguish"
  - shakna 2y ago
    The "catch phrase" came from MS, not the broader community. It was official policy for some time.
    - inurqubits 2y ago
      Yes, 20 years ago. Let go.
poidos 2y ago
> You spent more time configuring Vim and Emacs than they saved you. Doom emacs + Evil is basically free in terms of config time and it’s wonderful.
- cole-k 2y ago
  Another happy doom user (and formerly unhappy vim configure-er). Although the objection I see is more like "Why bother learning to use emacs/vim when VSCode is free and does everything I care about and my friends use it?" Which, to be fair, the emacs/vim learning curve isn't for everyone. I sometimes wish they had less "leet programmer" cred, though, since what is cred to the leet programmer is (in this case at least) stigma to the majority.
- renox 2y ago
  I haven't tried this one but I tried SpaceVim which threw error messages and was slower to start than VSCode --> I switched fully to VSCode.
- stragies 2y ago
  I want to like/use Doom (also to be able to recommend it to to new-comers), and it neatly solves many "beginner issues", but I can never get it to do code-folding like in my own emacs-config. Specifically, I'd want these 3 types of folding in the same buffer: - "Chapter & Block-based", like in `org-mode` - "Arbitrary lines folded", like in `vimish-fold` - "Semantic folding, any level", like in `hideshow` (Un-)folding should always be done with TAB, only for folding vimish-style, initial visual selection is needed. When doing that in DOOM, I always end up with visual corruption, when some of fancier default eye-candy is switched on and then I use several types of fold in the same document. I think, I saw code-comments, that there is an all-encompassing folding function in the works, but not yet finalized/activated. Hmm, maybe I should give it another spin, last time was 5ish months ago.
OtomotO 2y ago
> You spent more time configuring Vim and Emacs than they saved you Me? Nope. I program 8 hours per day on average and my editor works exactly like I want it to, same as my fully customised desktop. Even if it didn't save me time (which it does), I feel way more comfortable than with the alternatives.
jay_kyburz 2y ago
>What open source alternatives? Kate is great!
- rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 2y ago
  It's not, it's very buggy.
  - emptysongglass 2y ago
    Also its Vim implementation is horrific
    - brabel 2y ago
      And on Mac, it just does the wrong thing for most shortcuts (the basic moving ones, like Option-Left/Right, which work on any Mac app, including browsers, but not on Kate), which is a huge shame because otherwise it's a very good editor.
  - ahartmetz 2y ago
    I've been using it for 15+ years and somehow never noticed that.
    - rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 2y ago
      You did and you're lying.
Aeolun 2y ago
Zed is now open source. It’s new, and it’s great!
- rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 2y ago
  Sure but it does not work yet on Windows...
  - dbcjv7vhxj 2y ago
    That's a feature.
  - ramon156 2y ago
    You can build it for windows, that's still massive for an early project
  - nurumaik 2y ago
    It does, you just have to build urself
    - n144q 2y ago
      That is "does not work" for most people, including on HN. Nobody should be expected to spend half an hour installing vidual studio and building a project before they can start to use an IDE.
      - PaulRobinson 2y ago
        So why not fix that? You can absolutely build a binary and release it and save thousands of people that effort. Comments like this remind me of people who complain about an error they saw on Wikipedia: "So, you're going to fix that, right?" If you have a pain point in OSS that you care about, you can fix that. Yes, you the person reading these words right now. That's the entire point of OSS.
        n144q 2y ago
aftbit 2y ago
>You spent more time configuring Vim and Emacs than they saved you. Yeah, ten years ago. Now I just use the damn thing and occasionally update my plugins. At this point, I can hardly use nano, the vim bindings are so deep in my brain.
- atkailash 2y ago
  Doom kept breaking, spacemacs is just kinda annoying, and I don’t wanna go through doing my own from scratch again. I basically only use emacs for my couple literate configs because I haven’t found an equal alternative That’s why I’ve been checking out zed/helix/kakoune lately. Zed to replace VSCode which feels bloated and the other two to replace vim. The keybindings are more intuitive to me and having auto complete of commands out of the box with a full menu showing shortcuts saved me a lot of frustration from day 0
patrickkidger 2y ago
> What open source alternatives? Helix: https://github.com/helix-editor/helix/ https://github.com/helix-editor/helix/ Like vim, but already has an LSP etc out of the box. Things are already there so the config files are minimal.
wkat4242 2y ago
> Someone does not remember (or was not around) for the ActiveX or Flash days. "Hey wouldn't it be handy if every webpage can download binary code and run it? Oh and let it talk to every DLL in the system as well. Super handy! What could go wrong?" - Microsoft in 1998 :) I mean sure we were all a bit naive in the 90s and 00s but did they really not see that coming?
f1shy 2y ago
> You spent more time configuring Vim and Emacs than they saved you. Uh? I‘ve always used vim out of the box, and Emacs I got it just like I like by searching the .emacs file of a youtuber who has a configuration I likes. Exactly 1 minute.

skydhash 2y ago

> You spent more time configuring Vim and Emacs than they saved you I trade whatever default workflow that VSCode and other IDEs are imposing for a better editing experience. And even the initial time investment is short these days due to the trove of config and tutorials online. After learning Vim, I ditched the files explorer and embrace the buffer workflow instead. Opening many windows at the same time to peek at multiple files, then switching to a new tab only if I don’t want to lose the current windows configuration. Then fuzzy searching for navigation, and using the quickfix list for search and errors. No friction from thought to action. Another plus for me. I have an emacs session opened for weeks now inside a VM on my desktop to work on a side project. Whatever the computer (laptops or said desktopj, it’s a quick ssh, then resuming the dtach sessiom and my workspace is ready. Multiple files opened (almost all of them), a postgresql REPL, Tasks runners, and a lot of packages (magit, project.el, consult,…) working together to streamline working on code.

eru 2y ago
> I trade whatever default workflow that VSCode and other IDEs are imposing for a better editing experience. And even the initial time investment is short these days due to the trove of config and tutorials online. You can configure VSCode with plugins. They aren't imposing any more defaults than vim or emacs do.
- rootnod3 2y ago
  But several plugins on the VSCode side ar closed source.
  - eru 2y ago
    You can write non-open source emacs plugins, too.
    - fourthark 2y ago
      Emacs doesn't ship with them or nag you to install them.
    - csdreamer7 2y ago
      emacs specifically is not legal to distribute those plugins because of the GPL. Yes, you can be sued over this, likely won't, but you can be.
      - eru 2y ago
        The GPL's use of linking is rather nebulous.

makeitdouble 2y ago

> What open source alternatives? This is part of parent's point IMHO. As VSCode is good enough, there is no oxygen for an open source effort to reinvent that wheel. At some point it will stale long enough that some bigger communities will want to tackle the challenge, but that won't be tomorrow. I see VSCode as a net positive, but I think it's healthy to keep in mind the embrance->extend bigger picture.

dankle 2y ago
Vscode is open source
- arianvanp 2y ago
  The components the post is talking about are not.
- jcgl 2y ago
  It’s not. Its core is open source, but the actual build that is branded VS Code and that people download is not. I’m not even referring to many of the key extensions that many people use, such as the SSH remote and Pylance, which themselves are proprietary. If you want to use only open source code, you need a rebuild like VSCodium.
bogantech 2y ago
> embrace->extend You people need to get a new catch phrase, hard to draw a connection between something MS created and "embrace, extend, extinguish"
- shakna 2y ago
  The "catch phrase" came from MS, not the broader community. It was official policy for some time.
  - inurqubits 2y ago
    Yes, 20 years ago. Let go.

poidos 2y ago

> You spent more time configuring Vim and Emacs than they saved you. Doom emacs + Evil is basically free in terms of config time and it’s wonderful.

cole-k 2y ago
Another happy doom user (and formerly unhappy vim configure-er). Although the objection I see is more like "Why bother learning to use emacs/vim when VSCode is free and does everything I care about and my friends use it?" Which, to be fair, the emacs/vim learning curve isn't for everyone. I sometimes wish they had less "leet programmer" cred, though, since what is cred to the leet programmer is (in this case at least) stigma to the majority.
renox 2y ago
I haven't tried this one but I tried SpaceVim which threw error messages and was slower to start than VSCode --> I switched fully to VSCode.
stragies 2y ago
I want to like/use Doom (also to be able to recommend it to to new-comers), and it neatly solves many "beginner issues", but I can never get it to do code-folding like in my own emacs-config. Specifically, I'd want these 3 types of folding in the same buffer: - "Chapter & Block-based", like in `org-mode` - "Arbitrary lines folded", like in `vimish-fold` - "Semantic folding, any level", like in `hideshow` (Un-)folding should always be done with TAB, only for folding vimish-style, initial visual selection is needed. When doing that in DOOM, I always end up with visual corruption, when some of fancier default eye-candy is switched on and then I use several types of fold in the same document. I think, I saw code-comments, that there is an all-encompassing folding function in the works, but not yet finalized/activated. Hmm, maybe I should give it another spin, last time was 5ish months ago.

OtomotO 2y ago

> You spent more time configuring Vim and Emacs than they saved you Me? Nope. I program 8 hours per day on average and my editor works exactly like I want it to, same as my fully customised desktop. Even if it didn't save me time (which it does), I feel way more comfortable than with the alternatives.

jay_kyburz 2y ago

>What open source alternatives? Kate is great!

rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 2y ago
It's not, it's very buggy.
- emptysongglass 2y ago
  Also its Vim implementation is horrific
  - brabel 2y ago
    And on Mac, it just does the wrong thing for most shortcuts (the basic moving ones, like Option-Left/Right, which work on any Mac app, including browsers, but not on Kate), which is a huge shame because otherwise it's a very good editor.
- ahartmetz 2y ago
  I've been using it for 15+ years and somehow never noticed that.
  - rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 2y ago
    You did and you're lying.

Aeolun 2y ago

Zed is now open source. It’s new, and it’s great!

rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 2y ago
Sure but it does not work yet on Windows...
- dbcjv7vhxj 2y ago
  That's a feature.
- ramon156 2y ago
  You can build it for windows, that's still massive for an early project
- nurumaik 2y ago
  It does, you just have to build urself
  - n144q 2y ago
    That is "does not work" for most people, including on HN. Nobody should be expected to spend half an hour installing vidual studio and building a project before they can start to use an IDE.
    - PaulRobinson 2y ago
      So why not fix that? You can absolutely build a binary and release it and save thousands of people that effort. Comments like this remind me of people who complain about an error they saw on Wikipedia: "So, you're going to fix that, right?" If you have a pain point in OSS that you care about, you can fix that. Yes, you the person reading these words right now. That's the entire point of OSS.
      - n144q 2y ago

aftbit 2y ago

>You spent more time configuring Vim and Emacs than they saved you. Yeah, ten years ago. Now I just use the damn thing and occasionally update my plugins. At this point, I can hardly use nano, the vim bindings are so deep in my brain.

atkailash 2y ago
Doom kept breaking, spacemacs is just kinda annoying, and I don’t wanna go through doing my own from scratch again. I basically only use emacs for my couple literate configs because I haven’t found an equal alternative That’s why I’ve been checking out zed/helix/kakoune lately. Zed to replace VSCode which feels bloated and the other two to replace vim. The keybindings are more intuitive to me and having auto complete of commands out of the box with a full menu showing shortcuts saved me a lot of frustration from day 0

patrickkidger 2y ago

> What open source alternatives? Helix: https://github.com/helix-editor/helix/ https://github.com/helix-editor/helix/ Like vim, but already has an LSP etc out of the box. Things are already there so the config files are minimal.

wkat4242 2y ago

> Someone does not remember (or was not around) for the ActiveX or Flash days. "Hey wouldn't it be handy if every webpage can download binary code and run it? Oh and let it talk to every DLL in the system as well. Super handy! What could go wrong?" - Microsoft in 1998 :) I mean sure we were all a bit naive in the 90s and 00s but did they really not see that coming?

f1shy 2y ago

> You spent more time configuring Vim and Emacs than they saved you. Uh? I‘ve always used vim out of the box, and Emacs I got it just like I like by searching the .emacs file of a youtuber who has a configuration I likes. Exactly 1 minute.