10 ms·

Ketamine for Depression: How It Works (2024) [video]

109 points by ViktorRay 2y ago

Trasmatta 2y ago
I would like to try it someday, but I had some really bad trips on dissociative drugs in the past, and I'm worried ketamine will invoke flashbacks.
- orasis 2y ago
  The low dose lozenges very rarely lead to negative experiences.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- dinfinity 2y ago
  It's a blanket fix for all bad trips, but it really does work: Do some MDMA first (just enough to feel the effects, don't go all out). It will put you in a positive state of mind and allow you to experience all the crazy mind-alterations of psychedelics and/or dissociatives without being scared to shit.
  - quchen 2y ago
    MDMA and ketamie synergize nontrivially and strongly. I highly recommend against taking MDMA to ease off the ketamie. If you want to combine them for the resulting experience then power to you, but taking MDMA to make ketamie "simpler" is a very bad idea. I've taken care of multiple ketamie and MDMA overdoses (in the sense of unexpected effects, not just the amount) and they did not have a good time. (I also know plenty of people that had a blast on the combo, my point is: don't recommend drugs or combos easily.)
    - dinfinity 2y ago
      Citation needed. Psychonautwiki (very much the most reliable source on these matters) mentions nothing about negative effects of combining MDMA and ketamine: https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Ketamine https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Ketamine Even calling it 'overdoses' is nonsensical. It has a very clear definition and "did not like the experience" is not it. The main thing to remember is that combining drugs means taking less of each than when you take them by themselves. As always in all drug use: Dosage, dosage, dosage.
      - quchen 2y ago
        > Even calling it 'overdoses' is nonsensical. It has a very clear definition and "did not like the experience" is not it. Overdose can mean multiple things, the one you’re referring to is the medicinal overdose with danger to health, and what most people are (exclusively) familiar with. An overdose in the psychological sense is anything that exceeds the desired effect. Someone who wanted to party and quietly sits on a log, occasionally vomiting, unable to stand up, afraid to die, is definitely an overdose in the psychological sense, even without medicinal danger (regular breathing, responding to stimuli, effects stable). The transition from »oops this is too much, oh well« to an overdose is a spectrum. Psychonautwiki is a very good source, but neither it nor scientific literature has a good overview over individual cases. I know I’m at the base of the pyramid of evidence talking about my work on festivals doing psycare, so even if you doubt the stories me, my colleagues and any techno scene paramedic could tell you, the most important point stands: do not recommend drugs or even combinations to people without medical background. (For that, I can give you papers on e.g. people metabolizing MDMA via the MDA route exclusively for dramatically altered effects.)
CannonSlugs 2y ago
I've never tried Ketamine but I have tried shrooms, LSD, and DMT. I have never found the effects be to lasting though, regardless of dose. After one or two days I'm always back to baseline. I've wondered if a similar thing can be how much people are affected by things like Virtual Reality. After the initial five minute first try I never could get very immersed in VR (more than a regular 2D game). I could never feel any fear of height or anything for instance, it didn't grab me. I've wondered a while if that is a correlation that spans other people. If the people who get blown away by VR would also have large lasting effects of psychedelics, and vice versa.
- Obscurity4340 2y ago
  You should try DXM for an interesting "baby ketamine" experience. Just get the pure Robotussin gelcaps, I wouldn't do less than 2 bottles and actually thats generally a good place to start for a decent 2nd plateau trip without getting into the more crazy upper echelon dissociative effects and experience
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    Mix with sprite, pour it over some ice, and add a couple of your favorite jolly ranchers. That's the start of a good weekend.
    - Obscurity4340 2y ago
      You're thinking of codeine (purple drank). DXM is different
      - giraffe_lady 2y ago
        Oh true sorry I hope that didn't undermine your recommendation of recreational megadoses of OTC medication.
        Obscurity4340 2y ago
nbf_1995 2y ago
I underwent this treatment (Esketamine) a few years ago. I found the acute effects (the "trip") right after taking it quite unpleasant. But as the treatment went on, my mental state improved dramatically.
- ketamine 2y ago
  I agree with you. I dont enjoy the trip. I appreciate that I have ventured into the substrate of our reality but it is not something I desire to experience often. Trusting the process was great and worked well after 4 IV treatments. There is absolutely something to the plasticity coming from a treatment and being able to get out of a rut.
napierzaza 2y ago
[dead]
user3939382 2y ago
I knew someone with a horrible addiction/dependence on ketamine and justified it by always talking about how it cured depression like it was a vitamin.
- sneak 2y ago
  I know people who had horrible addictions to ketamine and adderall (who also had depression and ADHD) who managed to recover from those addictions and years later use them appropriately and in reasonable therapeutic doses on a normal therapeutic schedule for treatment of same. Anecdotes are not data and abuse potential isn’t really relevant to their clinical utility. Do we need to have a comment about junkies whenever someone mentions that they received fentanyl for a major surgery?
  - user3939382 2y ago
    Maybe there’s a danger in 100% of the time discussing this drug’s benefits with no discussion of the risks.
    - amanaplanacanal 2y ago
      Aren't there always risks with any treatment though? I'm not sure why psychedelics need to be specially called out.
      - dhdjruf 2y ago
        Its a schedule 1 drug for a reason. Many people have used psychedelics and have had permentant changes to their personality. I think the hippie stereotype is indicative to how damaging psychedelics have on the mind. You look at these people they are happy but something is clearly wrong.
        sneak 2y ago
        Ketamine is schedule 3. It is regularly prescribed. Schedule 1 substances basically can’t be prescribed without very special circumstances and permission. (Marijuana is in this class in the USA, strangely enough, along with MDMA.) Even methamphetamine and cocaine aren’t Schedule 1.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
thatguysaguy 2y ago
If you find this appealing, make sure to do it with a medical professional. If you still want to try it by yourself, read Felix Hill's suicide note first.
- ray_v 2y ago
  I had to do some digging, but I did find this (who knows if it's legitimate or not) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-jBoSEVlryiX1IaSzV4vKuihDfm_LgXUznvSpl1T1kg/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.vnjrknmu0cff https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-jBoSEVlryiX1IaSzV4vKuih...
  - jdthedisciple 2y ago
    that was something:/
  - dang 2y ago
    I'm sure it's legitimate. People posted it a few times to HN but it didn't get much discussion. I'm ambivalent about that. It's a fascinating, heartbreaking and gutwrenching document. But given the research on suicide (Werther Effect, etc.) it's probably best not to publicly feature it.
- throw-qqqqq 2y ago
  A friend of a friend took MDMA + Ketamine every weekend. K-hole doses. Developed monday-blues which turned into a sort of servere depression as he pressed on. It took a year of abstinence before he felt “normal” again. Drugs that affect the serotonine system can do this. Burnout from (repeated) overload sort of situation IIUC. I’m no doctor, but I suspect it’s extra dangerous if you’re already suffering depression. I couldn’t read the whole note. What a tragedy :'(
  - golergka 2y ago
    Taking MDMA every weekend is like drinking a few glasses of hard liquor every day. Meaning, only completely delusional and uninformed people would think it won't destroy your life. Of course, many people still do it. But they are fully aware of what road they're taking.
ub-volta-toss 2y ago
I did this a few times and found it miraculous. The doses were sub k-hole, it just made the world seem cottony and soft. The effect on my psyche was lasting and positive. A friend who struggles with depression found it useful for a while, but its effects didn't continue after a number of doses.
jgambier 2y ago
When I was going through a rough time and SSRIs weren't helping, read all the research on what other solutions were out there. Psilocybin seems to be the most effective but is only legal in Oregon and price quotes were $3,500 for one session. Ketamine coupled with TMS (Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation) was the second. Since both are legal and my insurance covered them, opted to choose these. I will say that the various meta-analyses have some conflicting results. TMS seemed to be pretty effective for me. It feels incredibly silly to have your brain zapped and is a big time commitment (30 days, 1X a day for 10 minutes) but I can't argue with the results. Ketamine was something else. I did it intravenously, which seemed to be the best way to manage dosage but required going into a clinic. The biggest downside to the whole treatment is that you'll be very drowsy and sometimes down after, and all I wanted to do was go to bed. Taking the Uber home is not pleasant. The esketamine nasal sprays allow you to do it at home at lower dosages. Once you get over the feeling of leaving your body, it can be quite nice. Overall, it led to unblocking some life time hold ups I had, and made me a better person. I had 5 sessions, 4 of them were overwhelmingly positive. The last was a dark couple hours where I hyperfocused on all my internal fears and failures. It also led to a lot of existential thoughts and questioning the fabric of reality which isn't all bad in small doses. I can see how excessive use could start to be counterproductive, it's good to stay connected to this reality. I don't understand how people use this as a party drug. I would absolutely recommend it in a controlled setting for limited treatment, but would caution those with addictive personalities to be careful, not to see it as a silver bullet or a crutch, to make sure you're in a neutral mental space and that you're comfortable wherever you're doing it. In tandem, I listened to a fair amount of buddhist podcasts from Joseph Goldstein that helped build out the spiritual/learning side. I'd like to see psylocibin treatment be more readily available at a lower price across the nation as an alternative.
- golergka 2y ago
  > Psilocybin seems to be the most effective but is only legal in Oregon and price quotes were $3,500 for one session That's a completely ridiculous price, about 300-500 times the "street" price of shrooms. In countries that I have familiarity with (not USA), shrooms have always been "technically illegal" drug which law enforcement never actually actively enforced, either formally through procedure (with doses below 100 grams considered fine-only territory), or informally, because the cops just don't take it seriously. So to me it seems like you're choosing to follow the law even though it would not hurt anyone and you would not get into any trouble, just out of pure principle. That's actually quite impressive.
dboreham 2y ago
Thread is 6h old and no mention of Elon Musk??
johanneskanybal 2y ago
I don't recomend doing it at an afterparty spilling half the bag on the floor and spending most of the night worrying if your "benefactor" will kill you.
kvhdude 2y ago
For a person (my daughter) who has tried everything under sun (except ECT and psilocybin)for depression and OCD and nothing ever seemed to help, what is the latest on treatment horizon?
- dnjdkdldh 2y ago
  Psychedelics + cognitive therapy has a lot of promise. There's a lot of types of psychedelics and therapies to investigate. MDMA with a group of close friends/family in a safe and loving environment is probably the best you could do on your own. Personally, cold exposure + lots of coffee + engaging work w/ others has been more effective than anything I've found in the healthcare system. Commit to daily work/social obligations, then drink enough coffee until you can will yourself to go everyday. Once it starts to become a habit is when my depression (slowly) will start to lift. If I stop for too long I fall back into the hole.
- dns_snek 2y ago
  Have you considered any alternative explanations/diagnosis? Rates of misdiagnosis for psychiatric disorders are significant (even more so in women, anecdotally) and it could be the reason why the treatments aren't working. Depression can manifest as a consequence of untreated ADHD, for example. Self-diagnosis is generally frowned upon but I think everyone owes it to themselves to at least try to find explanations that they can discuss with professionals.
  - kvhdude 2y ago
    we tried many avenues here as well 1.vitamin deficiency (she is vitamin D deficient, but it seems common in my race - asian 2. iron deficiency 3. gave magnesium for a while 4. someone diagnosed her for adhd and others disagreed 5. tested for autism. 6. tested for thyroid 7. took some T3/T4 i am thinking we will self pay an MRI.
billhathaway 2y ago
a partner has been on monthly ketamine therapy for treatment resistant anxiety and depression and it has help them out tremendously. They are still on SSRIs and in regular therapy, but have become far more happy and functional then they were for years before starting ketamine therapy
car 2y ago
In all this discussion, I’d like to add a piece of interesting recent scientific discovery regarding the mechanism of action that might well explain the increase in neuroplasticity from psychedelics like psylocibin and LSD and offers hope that we will find drugs that have the positive neuroplasticy increasing effect without causing hallucinations [1]. Below the abstract of the mentioned research (BDNF is Brain Derived Neurotrophic Factor, a kind of growth hormone for the brain), note the 1000 fold(!) higher affinity of the psychedelics: Psychedelics produce fast and persistent antidepressant effects and induce neuroplasticity resembling the effects of clinically approved antidepressants. We recently reported that pharmacologically diverse antidepressants, including fluoxetine [= SSRI] and ketamine, act by binding to TrkB, the receptor for BDNF. Here we show that lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) and psilocin directly bind to TrkB with affinities 1,000-fold higher than those for other antidepressants, and that psychedelics and antidepressants bind to distinct but partially overlapping sites within the transmembrane domain of TrkB dimers. The effects of psychedelics on neurotrophic signaling, plasticity and antidepressant-like behavior in mice depend on TrkB binding and promotion of endogenous BDNF signaling but are independent of serotonin 2A receptor (5-HT2A) activation, whereas LSD-induced head twitching is dependent on 5-HT2A and independent of TrkB binding. Our data confirm TrkB as a common primary target for antidepressants and suggest that high-affinity TrkB positive allosteric modulators lacking 5-HT2A activity may retain the antidepressant potential of psychedelics without hallucinogenic effects. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-023-01316-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-023-01316-5
waltercool 2y ago
Using drugs to treat depression is usually a bad idea unless you have a medical reason. Drugs for depression get addictive as your body gets instant reward by the pill. It's sad to see many 1st world countries becoming too dependent of them, instead of achieving happiness and personal goals

109 points by ViktorRay 2y ago

I would like to try it someday, but I had some really bad trips on dissociative drugs in the past, and I'm worried ketamine will invoke flashbacks.

orasis 2y ago
The low dose lozenges very rarely lead to negative experiences.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
dinfinity 2y ago
It's a blanket fix for all bad trips, but it really does work: Do some MDMA first (just enough to feel the effects, don't go all out). It will put you in a positive state of mind and allow you to experience all the crazy mind-alterations of psychedelics and/or dissociatives without being scared to shit.
- quchen 2y ago
  MDMA and ketamie synergize nontrivially and strongly. I highly recommend against taking MDMA to ease off the ketamie. If you want to combine them for the resulting experience then power to you, but taking MDMA to make ketamie "simpler" is a very bad idea. I've taken care of multiple ketamie and MDMA overdoses (in the sense of unexpected effects, not just the amount) and they did not have a good time. (I also know plenty of people that had a blast on the combo, my point is: don't recommend drugs or combos easily.)
  - dinfinity 2y ago
    Citation needed. Psychonautwiki (very much the most reliable source on these matters) mentions nothing about negative effects of combining MDMA and ketamine: https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Ketamine https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Ketamine Even calling it 'overdoses' is nonsensical. It has a very clear definition and "did not like the experience" is not it. The main thing to remember is that combining drugs means taking less of each than when you take them by themselves. As always in all drug use: Dosage, dosage, dosage.
    - quchen 2y ago
      > Even calling it 'overdoses' is nonsensical. It has a very clear definition and "did not like the experience" is not it. Overdose can mean multiple things, the one you’re referring to is the medicinal overdose with danger to health, and what most people are (exclusively) familiar with. An overdose in the psychological sense is anything that exceeds the desired effect. Someone who wanted to party and quietly sits on a log, occasionally vomiting, unable to stand up, afraid to die, is definitely an overdose in the psychological sense, even without medicinal danger (regular breathing, responding to stimuli, effects stable). The transition from »oops this is too much, oh well« to an overdose is a spectrum. Psychonautwiki is a very good source, but neither it nor scientific literature has a good overview over individual cases. I know I’m at the base of the pyramid of evidence talking about my work on festivals doing psycare, so even if you doubt the stories me, my colleagues and any techno scene paramedic could tell you, the most important point stands: do not recommend drugs or even combinations to people without medical background. (For that, I can give you papers on e.g. people metabolizing MDMA via the MDA route exclusively for dramatically altered effects.)

CannonSlugs 2y ago

I've never tried Ketamine but I have tried shrooms, LSD, and DMT. I have never found the effects be to lasting though, regardless of dose. After one or two days I'm always back to baseline. I've wondered if a similar thing can be how much people are affected by things like Virtual Reality. After the initial five minute first try I never could get very immersed in VR (more than a regular 2D game). I could never feel any fear of height or anything for instance, it didn't grab me. I've wondered a while if that is a correlation that spans other people. If the people who get blown away by VR would also have large lasting effects of psychedelics, and vice versa.

Obscurity4340 2y ago
You should try DXM for an interesting "baby ketamine" experience. Just get the pure Robotussin gelcaps, I wouldn't do less than 2 bottles and actually thats generally a good place to start for a decent 2nd plateau trip without getting into the more crazy upper echelon dissociative effects and experience
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  Mix with sprite, pour it over some ice, and add a couple of your favorite jolly ranchers. That's the start of a good weekend.
  - Obscurity4340 2y ago
    You're thinking of codeine (purple drank). DXM is different
    - giraffe_lady 2y ago
      Oh true sorry I hope that didn't undermine your recommendation of recreational megadoses of OTC medication.
      - Obscurity4340 2y ago

nbf_1995 2y ago

I underwent this treatment (Esketamine) a few years ago. I found the acute effects (the "trip") right after taking it quite unpleasant. But as the treatment went on, my mental state improved dramatically.

ketamine 2y ago
I agree with you. I dont enjoy the trip. I appreciate that I have ventured into the substrate of our reality but it is not something I desire to experience often. Trusting the process was great and worked well after 4 IV treatments. There is absolutely something to the plasticity coming from a treatment and being able to get out of a rut.

napierzaza 2y ago

[dead]

user3939382 2y ago

I knew someone with a horrible addiction/dependence on ketamine and justified it by always talking about how it cured depression like it was a vitamin.

sneak 2y ago
I know people who had horrible addictions to ketamine and adderall (who also had depression and ADHD) who managed to recover from those addictions and years later use them appropriately and in reasonable therapeutic doses on a normal therapeutic schedule for treatment of same. Anecdotes are not data and abuse potential isn’t really relevant to their clinical utility. Do we need to have a comment about junkies whenever someone mentions that they received fentanyl for a major surgery?
- user3939382 2y ago
  Maybe there’s a danger in 100% of the time discussing this drug’s benefits with no discussion of the risks.
  - amanaplanacanal 2y ago
    Aren't there always risks with any treatment though? I'm not sure why psychedelics need to be specially called out.
    - dhdjruf 2y ago
      Its a schedule 1 drug for a reason. Many people have used psychedelics and have had permentant changes to their personality. I think the hippie stereotype is indicative to how damaging psychedelics have on the mind. You look at these people they are happy but something is clearly wrong.
      - sneak 2y ago
        Ketamine is schedule 3. It is regularly prescribed. Schedule 1 substances basically can’t be prescribed without very special circumstances and permission. (Marijuana is in this class in the USA, strangely enough, along with MDMA.) Even methamphetamine and cocaine aren’t Schedule 1.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

thatguysaguy 2y ago

If you find this appealing, make sure to do it with a medical professional. If you still want to try it by yourself, read Felix Hill's suicide note first.

ray_v 2y ago
I had to do some digging, but I did find this (who knows if it's legitimate or not) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-jBoSEVlryiX1IaSzV4vKuihDfm_LgXUznvSpl1T1kg/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.vnjrknmu0cff https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-jBoSEVlryiX1IaSzV4vKuih...
- jdthedisciple 2y ago
  that was something:/
- dang 2y ago
  I'm sure it's legitimate. People posted it a few times to HN but it didn't get much discussion. I'm ambivalent about that. It's a fascinating, heartbreaking and gutwrenching document. But given the research on suicide (Werther Effect, etc.) it's probably best not to publicly feature it.
throw-qqqqq 2y ago
A friend of a friend took MDMA + Ketamine every weekend. K-hole doses. Developed monday-blues which turned into a sort of servere depression as he pressed on. It took a year of abstinence before he felt “normal” again. Drugs that affect the serotonine system can do this. Burnout from (repeated) overload sort of situation IIUC. I’m no doctor, but I suspect it’s extra dangerous if you’re already suffering depression. I couldn’t read the whole note. What a tragedy :'(
- golergka 2y ago
  Taking MDMA every weekend is like drinking a few glasses of hard liquor every day. Meaning, only completely delusional and uninformed people would think it won't destroy your life. Of course, many people still do it. But they are fully aware of what road they're taking.

ub-volta-toss 2y ago

I did this a few times and found it miraculous. The doses were sub k-hole, it just made the world seem cottony and soft. The effect on my psyche was lasting and positive. A friend who struggles with depression found it useful for a while, but its effects didn't continue after a number of doses.

jgambier 2y ago

When I was going through a rough time and SSRIs weren't helping, read all the research on what other solutions were out there. Psilocybin seems to be the most effective but is only legal in Oregon and price quotes were $3,500 for one session. Ketamine coupled with TMS (Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation) was the second. Since both are legal and my insurance covered them, opted to choose these. I will say that the various meta-analyses have some conflicting results. TMS seemed to be pretty effective for me. It feels incredibly silly to have your brain zapped and is a big time commitment (30 days, 1X a day for 10 minutes) but I can't argue with the results. Ketamine was something else. I did it intravenously, which seemed to be the best way to manage dosage but required going into a clinic. The biggest downside to the whole treatment is that you'll be very drowsy and sometimes down after, and all I wanted to do was go to bed. Taking the Uber home is not pleasant. The esketamine nasal sprays allow you to do it at home at lower dosages. Once you get over the feeling of leaving your body, it can be quite nice. Overall, it led to unblocking some life time hold ups I had, and made me a better person. I had 5 sessions, 4 of them were overwhelmingly positive. The last was a dark couple hours where I hyperfocused on all my internal fears and failures. It also led to a lot of existential thoughts and questioning the fabric of reality which isn't all bad in small doses. I can see how excessive use could start to be counterproductive, it's good to stay connected to this reality. I don't understand how people use this as a party drug. I would absolutely recommend it in a controlled setting for limited treatment, but would caution those with addictive personalities to be careful, not to see it as a silver bullet or a crutch, to make sure you're in a neutral mental space and that you're comfortable wherever you're doing it. In tandem, I listened to a fair amount of buddhist podcasts from Joseph Goldstein that helped build out the spiritual/learning side. I'd like to see psylocibin treatment be more readily available at a lower price across the nation as an alternative.

golergka 2y ago
> Psilocybin seems to be the most effective but is only legal in Oregon and price quotes were $3,500 for one session That's a completely ridiculous price, about 300-500 times the "street" price of shrooms. In countries that I have familiarity with (not USA), shrooms have always been "technically illegal" drug which law enforcement never actually actively enforced, either formally through procedure (with doses below 100 grams considered fine-only territory), or informally, because the cops just don't take it seriously. So to me it seems like you're choosing to follow the law even though it would not hurt anyone and you would not get into any trouble, just out of pure principle. That's actually quite impressive.

dboreham 2y ago

Thread is 6h old and no mention of Elon Musk??

johanneskanybal 2y ago

I don't recomend doing it at an afterparty spilling half the bag on the floor and spending most of the night worrying if your "benefactor" will kill you.

kvhdude 2y ago

For a person (my daughter) who has tried everything under sun (except ECT and psilocybin)for depression and OCD and nothing ever seemed to help, what is the latest on treatment horizon?

dnjdkdldh 2y ago
Psychedelics + cognitive therapy has a lot of promise. There's a lot of types of psychedelics and therapies to investigate. MDMA with a group of close friends/family in a safe and loving environment is probably the best you could do on your own. Personally, cold exposure + lots of coffee + engaging work w/ others has been more effective than anything I've found in the healthcare system. Commit to daily work/social obligations, then drink enough coffee until you can will yourself to go everyday. Once it starts to become a habit is when my depression (slowly) will start to lift. If I stop for too long I fall back into the hole.
dns_snek 2y ago
Have you considered any alternative explanations/diagnosis? Rates of misdiagnosis for psychiatric disorders are significant (even more so in women, anecdotally) and it could be the reason why the treatments aren't working. Depression can manifest as a consequence of untreated ADHD, for example. Self-diagnosis is generally frowned upon but I think everyone owes it to themselves to at least try to find explanations that they can discuss with professionals.
- kvhdude 2y ago
  we tried many avenues here as well 1.vitamin deficiency (she is vitamin D deficient, but it seems common in my race - asian 2. iron deficiency 3. gave magnesium for a while 4. someone diagnosed her for adhd and others disagreed 5. tested for autism. 6. tested for thyroid 7. took some T3/T4 i am thinking we will self pay an MRI.

billhathaway 2y ago

a partner has been on monthly ketamine therapy for treatment resistant anxiety and depression and it has help them out tremendously. They are still on SSRIs and in regular therapy, but have become far more happy and functional then they were for years before starting ketamine therapy

car 2y ago

In all this discussion, I’d like to add a piece of interesting recent scientific discovery regarding the mechanism of action that might well explain the increase in neuroplasticity from psychedelics like psylocibin and LSD and offers hope that we will find drugs that have the positive neuroplasticy increasing effect without causing hallucinations [1]. Below the abstract of the mentioned research (BDNF is Brain Derived Neurotrophic Factor, a kind of growth hormone for the brain), note the 1000 fold(!) higher affinity of the psychedelics: Psychedelics produce fast and persistent antidepressant effects and induce neuroplasticity resembling the effects of clinically approved antidepressants. We recently reported that pharmacologically diverse antidepressants, including fluoxetine [= SSRI] and ketamine, act by binding to TrkB, the receptor for BDNF. Here we show that lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) and psilocin directly bind to TrkB with affinities 1,000-fold higher than those for other antidepressants, and that psychedelics and antidepressants bind to distinct but partially overlapping sites within the transmembrane domain of TrkB dimers. The effects of psychedelics on neurotrophic signaling, plasticity and antidepressant-like behavior in mice depend on TrkB binding and promotion of endogenous BDNF signaling but are independent of serotonin 2A receptor (5-HT2A) activation, whereas LSD-induced head twitching is dependent on 5-HT2A and independent of TrkB binding. Our data confirm TrkB as a common primary target for antidepressants and suggest that high-affinity TrkB positive allosteric modulators lacking 5-HT2A activity may retain the antidepressant potential of psychedelics without hallucinogenic effects. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-023-01316-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-023-01316-5

waltercool 2y ago

Using drugs to treat depression is usually a bad idea unless you have a medical reason. Drugs for depression get addictive as your body gets instant reward by the pill. It's sad to see many 1st world countries becoming too dependent of them, instead of achieving happiness and personal goals