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This does not prove that whale songs are natural language, as Zipf's law is also true for random texts: https://www.nslij-genetics.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/1

This does not prove that whale songs are natural language, as Zipf's law is also true for random texts: https://www.nslij-genetics.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/ieee92_pre.pdf https://www.nslij-genetics.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/ie... Nor does it prove cultural learning, as various physical phenomema also follow Zipf's law: https://www.cs.cornell.edu/courses/cs6241/2019sp/readings/Newman-2005-distributions.pdf https://www.cs.cornell.edu/courses/cs6241/2019sp/readings/Ne...

patcon 2y ago
Not just "various physical phenomena", but "physical phenomena that have stabilised and persisted structure over time". I feel like you buried the lede in your post. People studying these physical systems are generally excited about the shared features, in my understanding
- lolinder 2y ago
  You're correct, but op is also right to point out that the headline is misleading by grouping whale song and language together—it implies that this is something unique to human language, whereas the actual category to which these now both belong is much much bigger than language. An alternate headline that makes the point clear: "Whalesong patterns follow a universal law of human city populations". Equally true, but with much less dramatic implications.
  - ourmandave 2y ago
    "Whalesong patterns follow a universal law of human city populations". Teeing up an Atlantis joke you know will get downvoted to hell on HN is just cruel man.
qwezxcrty 2y ago
On the converse, human nature languages do not necessarily follow Zipf's Law. Many asian languages including Chinese and Japanese are exceptions.
- sdenton4 2y ago
  I think Chomsky showed that, thanks to universality, English is a perfectly general language encapsulating all important properties of human language, so those don't count. (/s)
sdenton4 2y ago
Note that cultural transmission of humpback whale song is well-known and studied. Here's an example article on movement of songs across Pacific ocean populations in the span of ~2 years: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/epdf/10.1098/rsos.220158 https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/epdf/10.1098/rsos.220... (ed - in other words, cultural transmission of humpback whale song isn't part of the claims of the paper. The result is the Zipf distribution, and they hypothesize that the Zipf-law is emerging because of the cultural component.)

patcon 2y ago

Not just "various physical phenomena", but "physical phenomena that have stabilised and persisted structure over time". I feel like you buried the lede in your post. People studying these physical systems are generally excited about the shared features, in my understanding

lolinder 2y ago
You're correct, but op is also right to point out that the headline is misleading by grouping whale song and language together—it implies that this is something unique to human language, whereas the actual category to which these now both belong is much much bigger than language. An alternate headline that makes the point clear: "Whalesong patterns follow a universal law of human city populations". Equally true, but with much less dramatic implications.
- ourmandave 2y ago
  "Whalesong patterns follow a universal law of human city populations". Teeing up an Atlantis joke you know will get downvoted to hell on HN is just cruel man.

qwezxcrty 2y ago

On the converse, human nature languages do not necessarily follow Zipf's Law. Many asian languages including Chinese and Japanese are exceptions.

sdenton4 2y ago
I think Chomsky showed that, thanks to universality, English is a perfectly general language encapsulating all important properties of human language, so those don't count. (/s)

sdenton4 2y ago

Note that cultural transmission of humpback whale song is well-known and studied. Here's an example article on movement of songs across Pacific ocean populations in the span of ~2 years: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/epdf/10.1098/rsos.220158 https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/epdf/10.1098/rsos.220... (ed - in other words, cultural transmission of humpback whale song isn't part of the claims of the paper. The result is the Zipf distribution, and they hypothesize that the Zipf-law is emerging because of the cultural component.)