4 ms·

Mad at Meta? Don't Let Them Collect and Monetize Your Personal Data

140 points by doener 2y ago

jimmydoe 2y ago
for non tech ppl it’s too complicated to turn off ad settings. Just work with those close to you to export data and delete account. And you don’t have to do it all at once. You can delete X for them today and instagram next months. It’s a rehab process for addicts, they need your continuous love and care, or they might go back to those drugs.
- Gormo 2y ago
  The only way that the ever-growing risks inherent in being dependent on centralized platforms will ever be addressed is for "non tech people" to start learning about tech. There is no way to reconcile "I want to trust other people to do things I don't understand but are critically important to me" with "I don't want to allow third parties to have control over things that are critically important to me. You can neither do it yourself nor hold your fiduciaries accountable without having at least a foundational understanding of how things actually work.
  - jimmydoe 2y ago
    . The society is holding together by some level of trust others. Over emphasize individual self dependence is not helpful IMO. But instead of trust the big platform, we can go back trust people near you in the real world. As the more technical person in a small community, we all holds responsibility to help out.
    - Gormo 2y ago
      > The society is holding together by some level of trust others. Over emphasize individual self dependence is not helpful IMO. The maintenance of social trust is entirely conditional on the ease with which people can revoke it or transfer it to others. The ability to exercise the right of exit is the primary thing that mitigates fiduciary risk and allows trust between individuals to be established. Society is a network of relations among individuals, and it only exists as a consequence of people exercising individual autonomy. People having the means to do things for themselves in a pinch is precisely what enables them to trust others without fear of being abused.
  - k310 2y ago
    Having been involved with personal computing from its inception, I believe that companies made computers difficult to use for whatever reasons, be they catering to “power users”, business or just plain inattention to the non-techie user. Apple was better in this respect, but in recent times, has vast mysteries. I have written up how to save tabs in ios Safari and (this is real good) how to convert a webp file to jpg or png on ios. It’s frickin baroque. (Vastly easier on a mac) But I digress. Centralized web apps allowed people in essence to create web pages (without SeaMonkey). Apple had the key to hypertext with HyperCard and dropped it. And by the way, average people were writing their own apps in HyperCard. I was writing complex scientific graphing apps for work in HyperCard, and outputting EPS files for tech pubs. I saw a simplified computer “for old folks” and can relate that when my non-tech brother got tired of reinstalling his drivers with every Windows update, switched to a Dell Linux system, packaged and supported and after some initial questions about apps to use, hasn’t asked me anything in years. It’s not that Linux is streamlined or simple. It’s just that when you install the 4 apps you use all the time, life is good. I can’t say what should have taken place, because that’s in the “woulda coulda shoulda” basket and it’s best just to move forward.
    - Gormo 2y ago
      > I believe that companies made computers difficult to use for whatever reasons, be they catering to “power users”, business or just plain inattention to the non-techie user. I don't think that's quite accurate. "Power users" are simply the users who bothered to learn how computers work. Dumbing technology down to the level of people who couldn't be be so bothered is precisely what's lead to all of the centralization and abuse. It's also diminished the value of the technology itself, since simplifying user interfaces to a level that fails to express the inherent complexity of the system makes its full functionality inaccessible. Trying to make things "easy" leads to making them less powerful, less adaptable to the needs of the user, and less accessible and responsive to users who do care to learn how they work. At the end of the day, there's simply no way to attain the full value of technology without significant risk exposure if you don't put at least a little time and effort into understanding it.
      - k310 2y ago
ulfw 2y ago
Mad at Meta yet trust their settings? That's gotta be a small crossover in the Venn diagram.
- em3rgent0rdr 2y ago
  That was just EFF's first recommendation. Their next recommendation "Install Privacy Badger to Block Meta’s Trackers" is much more effective.
Daz1 2y ago
No I'm not mad at Meta, keep up the great work.
- the_clarence 2y ago
  Reading this comment from my Quest 3 and thinking "why are people who don't use facebook but get great value from the e2e encrypted whatsapp still mad at Meta"
TheEnder8 2y ago
The thing is, its not just Meta. It's anyone with a square inch of pixels that you can slap an ad on. Google, Amazon, Microsoft, etc. Meta gets a lot of flack, but it's easy to stop using Facebook. It's a lot harder to stop using Google or Amazon.
- mattmaroon 2y ago
  It’s pretty easy to stop using Amazon.
  - barrell 2y ago
    It’s also pretty easy to stop using Google - Kagi and proton will get you 70% of the way there
    - mc3301 2y ago
      Google is more than just a search engine for many people... Shared calendars, documents, maps, mail, mobile OS, browser, etc.
      - barrell 2y ago
        Kagi has a great browser, proton has mail and calendars (I mean everything has calendars, there isn’t really much lock in there), maps are (location dependent) very fungible. The OS and documents are trickier as I’ve never used either but I did only say 70%. The thing I would find hardest would be converting sign in with google accounts If the average person was so inclined, they could probably degoogle themselves 70% in one day, 90% in a month, and 98% in a year with very little cognitive load
  - mc3301 2y ago
    The online shop or AWS?
  - Yizahi 2y ago
    More like impossible
ChicagoDave 2y ago
MalwareBytes browser extension. Blocks all the shite. Mobile version too.
- akimbostrawman 2y ago
  So instead of meta getting your browsing data, your AV gets your whole PC data that they will sell too.
  - ChicagoDave 2y ago
    According to Malwarebytes' privacy policy, they do not track user location information and only collect minimal data necessary for functionality, like license key validation, and do not store or track your online activity when using their VPN service, prioritizing user privacy; however, they may collect anonymized data for improving their software through analytics.
    - akimbostrawman 2y ago
      >only collect minimal data necessary for functionality >however, they may collect anonymized data for improving their software through analytics. So they do not unless they think of a plausible enough sounding excuse. anonymization with the massive amount of unique data a AV can collect is also nothing more than a empty promise. it's truly mind boggling that in current year any vaguely tech literate person would believe a for profit proprietary software company would not data harvest the shit out of any bit they can because of worthless text on a website they could change or circumvent at any time or just ignore without any real repurcussions (pity fines don't count).
redleader55 2y ago
I find it hilarious that the article starts with "are you mad at Meta for trying to appease the guy at the head of federal government" and ends with "we need strong federal privacy laws". It's the same federal government, you either trust it to legislate or you don't.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- AxiomaticSpace 2y ago
  The federal government is not a unitary organization. It's logically consistent to both not like the president and want congress to pass privacy laws.
- GuardianCaveman 2y ago
  The right federal privacy laws would protect people regardless of the flavor of the 4 years if they're actually enshrined in law and would take something other than an executive order to undo.
  - amanaplanacanal 2y ago
    That's the way it's supposed to work, yes. But it requires you to get the courts to agree and the executive to enforce. Which isn't a given anymore.
- cyberax 2y ago
  I trust the Federal government, if it follows all the procedures with all the safeguards in place.
- computerthings 2y ago
  Trump is neither the government, nor is he "the laws", nor allowed to make laws. https://www.trumanlibrary.gov/education/three-branches/what-president-can-do-cannot-do https://www.trumanlibrary.gov/education/three-branches/what-...
xnx 2y ago
Great message. I wish the instructions were even more succinct and direct.
bitcurious 2y ago
I feel like only a few years ago the EFF was a non-partisan organization but for the last year every article of theirs I read has a distinctly American progressive perspective. Anyone know what’s behind the change? I’m struck by the complaint about loosening moderation, right next to a complaint about censorship. It’s a very unprincipled take from an org I used to respect.
- kristopolous 2y ago
  I don't think they've moved at all. It's more that the Overton window fell off a cliff about 10 years ago. They've always been about protecting privacy and liberty, just not the liberty to bully and harass people.
  - kiba 2y ago
    [EDIT] Wrong parent.
    - kristopolous 2y ago
      I believe this is the wrong place in the thread. Did you mean to comment to the parent? I agree that the American political parties currently represent rather niche positions that most people don't feel aligned with - they're pretty poor generalist labels for the various constellations of moral sentiments that we find in society.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- lokimokitako 2y ago
  Are you kidding? They have literally been the most progressive tech advocacy group in history. I’ve been donating annually since it was founded. They’ve been consistent. Maybe you’ve moved more to the right?
  - ioajfg 2y ago
    Historically, the EFF has been very pro free-speech. Now it seems like they're in the free-speech-but-only-if-we-agree-with-you camp.
exmadscientist 2y ago
What happens if you've never been a Meta user? I have never had any kind of business relationship with Meta (so far as I know), and have never agreed to any contract or terms of service. What can I do, under US law, to minimize what they store about me and my behavior, or at least keep tabs on them?
- dylan604 2y ago
  Is this rhetorical? Nothing. Every website that adds their code will be tracking you. Every friend, acquaintance, or anyone that you’ve shared your contact with for what ever reason that has given them access to their contacts has provided your info for you. There’s nothing you can do about it. At the rate we’re going, it will soon be law that you have to allow them to track you. The Zuck just hasn’t figured out yet that if he writes larger checks, he can get an executive order that would benefit him.
  - ericjmorey 2y ago
    How does Meta track me when blocking the JavaScript from Meta controlled urls?
    - aqueueaqueue 2y ago
      Your face on a geotagged photo.
    - belter 2y ago
      - Server-Side Tracking with CNAME Cloaking & Direct Server Calls - Image-Based Tracking withPixel in No-JS Mode - URL Parameter Tracking - First-Party Cookies from Partner Sites - IP & Fingerprinting - Social Graph Inference - Embedded iFrames & Cross-Site Requests F#^$^%$$ Suckerberg...
  - SapporoChris 2y ago
    "Is this rhetorical? Nothing" Nonsense, and the article addresses this. "Block Meta’s Trackers"
xenodium 2y ago
[flagged]
50208 2y ago
An addict can't use occasionally or use less ... there is only 1 way to quit. You have to actually quit.
amatecha 2y ago
IMO, skip all the "FB settings" shenanigans and instead just block all Meta (and Google while you're at it) properties using a Pi-Hole on your whole network. VPN into your own LAN with Tailscale and use the Pi-Hole for DNS resolution and never see that shit on your phone again, either. If you want to go a step further, you could do this blocking at the router/firewall level, if you have hardware capable of this.
- bjelkeman-again 2y ago
  So how do I make my mom do this? /s Seriously, even I would have to spend a day or two to figure this out. We need something simple for 99.99% of people to use.
  - amatecha 2y ago
    Yeah, my point is that toggling some settings in Facebook won't do much of anything if you don't want to be tracked by these scumbags. I mean, regardless, your mom doesn't have to do anything if you swap her crappy ISP-provided router with a new router running opnsense or pfsense (and a bit of configuration to block the Meta-related domains). Entire households can become Meta-free with a single hardware swap. It doesn't require that much tech knowledge to do it - the one tech-savvy person in an extended family of dozens can do this stuff.
    - bjelkeman-again 2y ago
      I get it. A lot of people on HN seem to think every family has a tech nerd in it to do this. I’d rather we had spa consume solution for it. But I suspect we’ll never get there.
  - ranguna 2y ago
    Once you have things running, all you have to do is connect your mom's phone to your vpn.
  - ericjmorey 2y ago
    Setting up a piehole at your mom's house would require your mom to do nothing. But it will break a lot of things that she'll prot complain about.
yash302 2y ago
[flagged]
ipv6ipv4 2y ago
Mad at Meta? Don’t work there, and don’t let your friends work there. It’s unethical.
tokioyoyo 2y ago
Eh, I personally gave up and accepted that I lost the war. It’s kinda nice to be a normie who doesn’t care about much about it. Basic ad blocking, and just generally not caring about what happens with my data. Does it sound awful? Absolutely! But it feels weirdly free, compared to my 2020-self. To be very fair though, I just use WhatsApp because that’s the messenger of choice for basically everyone in the world. And Facebook marketplace/groups.
Jean-Papoulos 2y ago
There's a facebook share button right next to the article. The jokes write themselves : https://imgur.com/a/TbIjZSV https://imgur.com/a/TbIjZSV
- larsnystrom 2y ago
  I agree it's ironic, however they seem to use an inert version of the share button. The default share button by Facebook contacts Facebook when you view the page, doesn't matter whether you click the button or not. The one used by EFF only contacts Facebook when you click it.
  - aembleton 2y ago
    It's still directing traffic to them and providing content for them to monetise. Also, it doesn't use the nofollow tag.
    - talkin 2y ago
      Spreading the message inside FB helps the mission. The people who already stopped don’t need to be convinced anymore. ;) But sure, ironic and counterintuitive.
TimByte 2y ago
As long as the business model is built on monetizing personal data, they'll always find workarounds

140 points by doener 2y ago

for non tech ppl it’s too complicated to turn off ad settings. Just work with those close to you to export data and delete account. And you don’t have to do it all at once. You can delete X for them today and instagram next months. It’s a rehab process for addicts, they need your continuous love and care, or they might go back to those drugs.

Gormo 2y ago
The only way that the ever-growing risks inherent in being dependent on centralized platforms will ever be addressed is for "non tech people" to start learning about tech. There is no way to reconcile "I want to trust other people to do things I don't understand but are critically important to me" with "I don't want to allow third parties to have control over things that are critically important to me. You can neither do it yourself nor hold your fiduciaries accountable without having at least a foundational understanding of how things actually work.
- jimmydoe 2y ago
  . The society is holding together by some level of trust others. Over emphasize individual self dependence is not helpful IMO. But instead of trust the big platform, we can go back trust people near you in the real world. As the more technical person in a small community, we all holds responsibility to help out.
  - Gormo 2y ago
    > The society is holding together by some level of trust others. Over emphasize individual self dependence is not helpful IMO. The maintenance of social trust is entirely conditional on the ease with which people can revoke it or transfer it to others. The ability to exercise the right of exit is the primary thing that mitigates fiduciary risk and allows trust between individuals to be established. Society is a network of relations among individuals, and it only exists as a consequence of people exercising individual autonomy. People having the means to do things for themselves in a pinch is precisely what enables them to trust others without fear of being abused.
- k310 2y ago
  Having been involved with personal computing from its inception, I believe that companies made computers difficult to use for whatever reasons, be they catering to “power users”, business or just plain inattention to the non-techie user. Apple was better in this respect, but in recent times, has vast mysteries. I have written up how to save tabs in ios Safari and (this is real good) how to convert a webp file to jpg or png on ios. It’s frickin baroque. (Vastly easier on a mac) But I digress. Centralized web apps allowed people in essence to create web pages (without SeaMonkey). Apple had the key to hypertext with HyperCard and dropped it. And by the way, average people were writing their own apps in HyperCard. I was writing complex scientific graphing apps for work in HyperCard, and outputting EPS files for tech pubs. I saw a simplified computer “for old folks” and can relate that when my non-tech brother got tired of reinstalling his drivers with every Windows update, switched to a Dell Linux system, packaged and supported and after some initial questions about apps to use, hasn’t asked me anything in years. It’s not that Linux is streamlined or simple. It’s just that when you install the 4 apps you use all the time, life is good. I can’t say what should have taken place, because that’s in the “woulda coulda shoulda” basket and it’s best just to move forward.
  - Gormo 2y ago
    > I believe that companies made computers difficult to use for whatever reasons, be they catering to “power users”, business or just plain inattention to the non-techie user. I don't think that's quite accurate. "Power users" are simply the users who bothered to learn how computers work. Dumbing technology down to the level of people who couldn't be be so bothered is precisely what's lead to all of the centralization and abuse. It's also diminished the value of the technology itself, since simplifying user interfaces to a level that fails to express the inherent complexity of the system makes its full functionality inaccessible. Trying to make things "easy" leads to making them less powerful, less adaptable to the needs of the user, and less accessible and responsive to users who do care to learn how they work. At the end of the day, there's simply no way to attain the full value of technology without significant risk exposure if you don't put at least a little time and effort into understanding it.
    - k310 2y ago

ulfw 2y ago

Mad at Meta yet trust their settings? That's gotta be a small crossover in the Venn diagram.

em3rgent0rdr 2y ago
That was just EFF's first recommendation. Their next recommendation "Install Privacy Badger to Block Meta’s Trackers" is much more effective.

Daz1 2y ago

No I'm not mad at Meta, keep up the great work.

the_clarence 2y ago
Reading this comment from my Quest 3 and thinking "why are people who don't use facebook but get great value from the e2e encrypted whatsapp still mad at Meta"

TheEnder8 2y ago

The thing is, its not just Meta. It's anyone with a square inch of pixels that you can slap an ad on. Google, Amazon, Microsoft, etc. Meta gets a lot of flack, but it's easy to stop using Facebook. It's a lot harder to stop using Google or Amazon.

mattmaroon 2y ago
It’s pretty easy to stop using Amazon.
- barrell 2y ago
  It’s also pretty easy to stop using Google - Kagi and proton will get you 70% of the way there
  - mc3301 2y ago
    Google is more than just a search engine for many people... Shared calendars, documents, maps, mail, mobile OS, browser, etc.
    - barrell 2y ago
      Kagi has a great browser, proton has mail and calendars (I mean everything has calendars, there isn’t really much lock in there), maps are (location dependent) very fungible. The OS and documents are trickier as I’ve never used either but I did only say 70%. The thing I would find hardest would be converting sign in with google accounts If the average person was so inclined, they could probably degoogle themselves 70% in one day, 90% in a month, and 98% in a year with very little cognitive load
- mc3301 2y ago
  The online shop or AWS?
- Yizahi 2y ago
  More like impossible

ChicagoDave 2y ago

MalwareBytes browser extension. Blocks all the shite. Mobile version too.

akimbostrawman 2y ago
So instead of meta getting your browsing data, your AV gets your whole PC data that they will sell too.
- ChicagoDave 2y ago
  According to Malwarebytes' privacy policy, they do not track user location information and only collect minimal data necessary for functionality, like license key validation, and do not store or track your online activity when using their VPN service, prioritizing user privacy; however, they may collect anonymized data for improving their software through analytics.
  - akimbostrawman 2y ago
    >only collect minimal data necessary for functionality >however, they may collect anonymized data for improving their software through analytics. So they do not unless they think of a plausible enough sounding excuse. anonymization with the massive amount of unique data a AV can collect is also nothing more than a empty promise. it's truly mind boggling that in current year any vaguely tech literate person would believe a for profit proprietary software company would not data harvest the shit out of any bit they can because of worthless text on a website they could change or circumvent at any time or just ignore without any real repurcussions (pity fines don't count).

redleader55 2y ago

I find it hilarious that the article starts with "are you mad at Meta for trying to appease the guy at the head of federal government" and ends with "we need strong federal privacy laws". It's the same federal government, you either trust it to legislate or you don't.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
AxiomaticSpace 2y ago
The federal government is not a unitary organization. It's logically consistent to both not like the president and want congress to pass privacy laws.
GuardianCaveman 2y ago
The right federal privacy laws would protect people regardless of the flavor of the 4 years if they're actually enshrined in law and would take something other than an executive order to undo.
- amanaplanacanal 2y ago
  That's the way it's supposed to work, yes. But it requires you to get the courts to agree and the executive to enforce. Which isn't a given anymore.
cyberax 2y ago
I trust the Federal government, if it follows all the procedures with all the safeguards in place.
computerthings 2y ago
Trump is neither the government, nor is he "the laws", nor allowed to make laws. https://www.trumanlibrary.gov/education/three-branches/what-president-can-do-cannot-do https://www.trumanlibrary.gov/education/three-branches/what-...

xnx 2y ago

Great message. I wish the instructions were even more succinct and direct.

bitcurious 2y ago

I feel like only a few years ago the EFF was a non-partisan organization but for the last year every article of theirs I read has a distinctly American progressive perspective. Anyone know what’s behind the change? I’m struck by the complaint about loosening moderation, right next to a complaint about censorship. It’s a very unprincipled take from an org I used to respect.

kristopolous 2y ago
I don't think they've moved at all. It's more that the Overton window fell off a cliff about 10 years ago. They've always been about protecting privacy and liberty, just not the liberty to bully and harass people.
- kiba 2y ago
  [EDIT] Wrong parent.
  - kristopolous 2y ago
    I believe this is the wrong place in the thread. Did you mean to comment to the parent? I agree that the American political parties currently represent rather niche positions that most people don't feel aligned with - they're pretty poor generalist labels for the various constellations of moral sentiments that we find in society.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
lokimokitako 2y ago
Are you kidding? They have literally been the most progressive tech advocacy group in history. I’ve been donating annually since it was founded. They’ve been consistent. Maybe you’ve moved more to the right?
- ioajfg 2y ago
  Historically, the EFF has been very pro free-speech. Now it seems like they're in the free-speech-but-only-if-we-agree-with-you camp.

exmadscientist 2y ago

What happens if you've never been a Meta user? I have never had any kind of business relationship with Meta (so far as I know), and have never agreed to any contract or terms of service. What can I do, under US law, to minimize what they store about me and my behavior, or at least keep tabs on them?

dylan604 2y ago
Is this rhetorical? Nothing. Every website that adds their code will be tracking you. Every friend, acquaintance, or anyone that you’ve shared your contact with for what ever reason that has given them access to their contacts has provided your info for you. There’s nothing you can do about it. At the rate we’re going, it will soon be law that you have to allow them to track you. The Zuck just hasn’t figured out yet that if he writes larger checks, he can get an executive order that would benefit him.
- ericjmorey 2y ago
  How does Meta track me when blocking the JavaScript from Meta controlled urls?
  - aqueueaqueue 2y ago
    Your face on a geotagged photo.
  - belter 2y ago
    - Server-Side Tracking with CNAME Cloaking & Direct Server Calls - Image-Based Tracking withPixel in No-JS Mode - URL Parameter Tracking - First-Party Cookies from Partner Sites - IP & Fingerprinting - Social Graph Inference - Embedded iFrames & Cross-Site Requests F#^$^%$$ Suckerberg...
- SapporoChris 2y ago
  "Is this rhetorical? Nothing" Nonsense, and the article addresses this. "Block Meta’s Trackers"

xenodium 2y ago

[flagged]

50208 2y ago

An addict can't use occasionally or use less ... there is only 1 way to quit. You have to actually quit.

amatecha 2y ago

IMO, skip all the "FB settings" shenanigans and instead just block all Meta (and Google while you're at it) properties using a Pi-Hole on your whole network. VPN into your own LAN with Tailscale and use the Pi-Hole for DNS resolution and never see that shit on your phone again, either. If you want to go a step further, you could do this blocking at the router/firewall level, if you have hardware capable of this.

bjelkeman-again 2y ago
So how do I make my mom do this? /s Seriously, even I would have to spend a day or two to figure this out. We need something simple for 99.99% of people to use.
- amatecha 2y ago
  Yeah, my point is that toggling some settings in Facebook won't do much of anything if you don't want to be tracked by these scumbags. I mean, regardless, your mom doesn't have to do anything if you swap her crappy ISP-provided router with a new router running opnsense or pfsense (and a bit of configuration to block the Meta-related domains). Entire households can become Meta-free with a single hardware swap. It doesn't require that much tech knowledge to do it - the one tech-savvy person in an extended family of dozens can do this stuff.
  - bjelkeman-again 2y ago
    I get it. A lot of people on HN seem to think every family has a tech nerd in it to do this. I’d rather we had spa consume solution for it. But I suspect we’ll never get there.
- ranguna 2y ago
  Once you have things running, all you have to do is connect your mom's phone to your vpn.
- ericjmorey 2y ago
  Setting up a piehole at your mom's house would require your mom to do nothing. But it will break a lot of things that she'll prot complain about.

yash302 2y ago

[flagged]

ipv6ipv4 2y ago

Mad at Meta? Don’t work there, and don’t let your friends work there. It’s unethical.

tokioyoyo 2y ago

Eh, I personally gave up and accepted that I lost the war. It’s kinda nice to be a normie who doesn’t care about much about it. Basic ad blocking, and just generally not caring about what happens with my data. Does it sound awful? Absolutely! But it feels weirdly free, compared to my 2020-self. To be very fair though, I just use WhatsApp because that’s the messenger of choice for basically everyone in the world. And Facebook marketplace/groups.

Jean-Papoulos 2y ago

There's a facebook share button right next to the article. The jokes write themselves : https://imgur.com/a/TbIjZSV https://imgur.com/a/TbIjZSV

larsnystrom 2y ago
I agree it's ironic, however they seem to use an inert version of the share button. The default share button by Facebook contacts Facebook when you view the page, doesn't matter whether you click the button or not. The one used by EFF only contacts Facebook when you click it.
- aembleton 2y ago
  It's still directing traffic to them and providing content for them to monetise. Also, it doesn't use the nofollow tag.
  - talkin 2y ago
    Spreading the message inside FB helps the mission. The people who already stopped don’t need to be convinced anymore. ;) But sure, ironic and counterintuitive.

TimByte 2y ago

As long as the business model is built on monetizing personal data, they'll always find workarounds