6 ms·
Tesla Is Alienating the People It Needs Most: Study
- ta8645 2y ago[flagged]
- SonOfKyuss 2y agoYour statement seems to assume that Teslas are the only EVs available for people to buy
- timeon 2y agoYeah it interesting that some people are able to make such, lets put it mildly, not-really-smart argument.
- novemp 2y agoThere are far more options than Tesla these days. The options aren't limited to "buy Tesla" and "deny climate change".
- zfg 2y agoOr they'll just buy a different brand of EV.
- shinryuu 2y agoYou can still choose to buy your electric car from some other company. At this point I think that would be my preferred choice.
- woodruffw 2y agoI think the opposite choice would be not purchasing a car at all? I've managed to live without one so far.
- ta8645 2y agoThere are some people who can make that choice, and that's preferable. But not everyone can do that. And to leave a single EV unused, just because we hate a single man, is unconscionable for anyone who believes the world actually hangs in the balance.
- woodruffw 2y agoAs others have pointed out, you could buy a different EV. The market appears to have many options. But also, I simply don't buy the environmental argument here. I'm pretty sure buying a used Toyota Camry and driving it into the ground is better, on net, for the planet than buying a brand new EV.
- shinryuu 2y agoNot sure about that. Use emissions is the majority https://www.visualcapitalist.com/life-cycle-emissions-evs-vs-combustion-engine-vehicles/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/life-cycle-emissions-evs-vs...
- woodruffw 2y agoYes, for equivalent cars purchased new. The point was that a 10 year old used sedan than you drive for another 10 years will still produce fewer tailpipe emissions than a new EV's manufacture.
- vasachi 2y agoYou do know there are other EV manufacturers, right? Tesla can go bankrupt today, and supply will not be all that worse.
- tuwtuwtuwtuw 2y agoI don't agree that it's unconscionable. To me, supporting a man like Musk who actively promote climate change denial is the worse option.
- 2y ago
- tehjoker 2y agoyea, but they will probably buy from another company. if i had to ditch my gas car, my first impulse is i would see if i could swing something from BYD, but i hear the tariffs are high
- ChadNauseam 2y agoIf we were facing an existential warming crisis I would agree. But since we’re facing a warming crisis that is severe but not existential, I’m not sure. It seems plausible that the damage done by Elon in supporting trump outweighs the benefits we get from his contribution to a cleaner transportation story.
- croes 2y agoNot existential to whom? Lets asks the people of Tuvalu.
- almostgotcaught 2y ago> won't let petty grievances get in the way Lol if these are "petty" grievances I can't imagine what legitimate grievances look like.
- ta8645 2y agoAll grievances are petty compared to the destruction of our world.
- zfg 2y agoThe administration Musk is a part of has just suspended the NEVI EV charger program: https://electrek.co/2025/02/06/trump-just-canceled-the-federal-nevi-ev-charger-program/ https://electrek.co/2025/02/06/trump-just-canceled-the-feder... If you care about the world (or even just America), don't buy Tesla.
- croes 2y agoElectric cars are useless if the power is still generated by oil, coal and gas. So helping the guy who supports a climate change denier will make things worse.
- ggm 2y agoIf you'd said less beneficial I could agree. Since batteries can soak surplus power and make it available at other times there is a substantial social utility to ev as energy soaks irrespective of the source. The "less efficient because coal" thing is massively overstated sometimes, it's tendentious.
- croes 2y agoNot less efficient, useless. Imagine instead of directly powering the car by combustion engine, you first use a combustion engine to generate electricity to fill the battery. How would the car benefit the environment?
- ggm 2y agoCoal generation favours long run times and is inefficient at being ramped up and down quickly. Using battery systems to soak surplus power time shifts a commodity which otherwise has to be negatively priced. The ideal input for a battery is of course renewable energy but there is a case for batteries as energy soak during times of low consumption, and to help stabilise demand in the network. This isn't an individual car efficiency statement, it's about socialised costs.
- apparent 2y agoThere is still a benefit to having pollution not come out of the tailpipe. When I go for a bike ride or a run and half the cars are EVs, I'm glad (even though I understand the electricity may come from fuel burning elsewhere).
- croes 2y agoSo you trade your health for more pollution for others.
- tcdent 2y ago[flagged]
- novemp 2y agoNice job pretending there aren't a ton of rational comments explaining why this person is wrong that have nothing to do with "identity politics".
- akamaka 2y agoI downvoted because it’s just plain trolling, even if eloquently written. If someone doesn’t like Musk, they can spend their EV budget on something else, like upgrading their furnace, without being the humongous hypocrites the parent commenter is smugly suggesting they are.
- jazzyjackson 2y agoThe rational move in the face of climate change is to buy a sports car?
- c-cube 2y agoWhy does this one man, then, work for a government bent on ignoring science and denying climate change? I'm just laughing at the idea that the grievances are "petty" when the guy is leading a fascist coup right now.
- ta8645 2y agoWhat does it matter what one man thinks? What does it matter what coup happens if the world ends because of global warming? The only way to think that party politics matters more than doing every single thing we can to fight global warming, with no distractions, is to not truly believe in global warming. Because if you actually believed it, you'd be too terrified to be distracted by party politics.
- senordevnyc 2y agoThat’s a little like worrying about the roof replacement your house will desperately need in a decade, meanwhile there’s a guy trying to burn your house down right now. Let’s put the fire out, then we can worry about the roof.
- ta8645 2y agoWrong. What we do TODAY determines what happens in a decade. Global warming is determined by what we do today, even if the final destruction doesn't show up until later. You are literally a climate change denier.
- zfg 2y agoThe administration Musk is a part of has suspended leasing and permitting for wind energy projects: https://apnews.com/article/wind-energy-offshore-turbines-trump-executive-order-995a744c3c1a2eddb30cacf50b681f13 https://apnews.com/article/wind-energy-offshore-turbines-tru... It has suspended renewable energy approvals on public lands: https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/5105492-trump-administration-pauses-renewable-energy-approvals-public-lands-waters/ https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/5105492-trump-... And it's quitting the Paris climate agreement so it can "drill, baby, drill": https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20px1e05w0o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20px1e05w0o If you're serious about addressing climate change, you can no longer buy Tesla.
- JauntyHatAngle 2y agoThe problem with that logic is that its clear now that Tesla is run by someone who is has directly said that we can wait 50-100 years to set up a sustainable energy economy, and is currently working against federal scientific bodies. Combined with the fact that there are many EV's on the market of similar quality, it is clear you do not need to purchase from Tesla. So you can avoid enriching someone who is in direct opposition to climate action while also making your own move to EVs. You can have your cake and eat it too. I also take issue with "petty grievance". I do not know and will never meet Musk, there is no personal feud here. I simply do not believe he is doing good things for the world, and the quality of the product offered does not force my hand in any way, so I will simply choose to take my money elsewhere. No petty grievance involved.
- biohcacker84 2y agoRevolutionized the battery industries and the electric car industries. How much faster than 50 year do you think the global economy can be turned sustainable? And what is your source for Elon working against federal scientific bodies?
- throwaway5752 2y agoI own an EV and it is not a Tesla. I would never buy or rent a Tesla again based only on Musk's prominence in the company and use of the Nazi salute and support of Nazi affiliated nationalist political parties in Europe. Musk's support for a president that has halted renewable grants, halted permitting for renewable projects on private land and plans to roll back emissions standards, increase coal mining and use, and generally everything in https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/unleashing-american-energy/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/unle... makes a Tesla a complete non-starter for anyone that cares about climate change now.
- monkeycantype 2y agoIt's not about distaste. The motivation for buying an electric car is in part about believing your individual choices contribute to larger outcomes. The same logic links your Tesla purchase to Elon's growing wealth and power, which if you are concerned about global warming and fossil fuels, you likely are also concerned about the long term consequences of his current use of his wealth and power, so your motivation to buy an electric car, comes from a similar place to the motivation not to buy it from Elon. Perhaps because this is not reddit I don't need to preempt the trolls, but the relationship between those two motivations remains true even if you were motivated only by virtue signalling
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- timeon 2y agoNo one is going to mitigate climate change by buying things.
- uni_baconcat 2y agoHow about switch from natural gas to electricity for all households heating and appliances. How about public transportation.
- throwaway784989 2y agoThe grievances aren't petty. He is one man among several who are overtly and actively working to destroy the US. Buying anything related to Musk is helping to finance that destruction.
- arp242 2y ago> buying electric cars, even from Tesla, is more important than any distaste we have The man empowers Trump, who is anti climate change action. As is the AfD, Nigel Farage, and all the other wingnuts he supports. So it's not that simple. That is of course ignoring any other negative effects from Musk's actions. Sure, the climate crisis is real and should be among the top priorities, but that doesn't mean we can just waltz over anything else.
- Gshaheen 2y agoIn short, tesla is not viewed as favorably as other car companies. And in the end, what they offer isn’t much differentiated from competitors that offer similar products.
- diebeforei485 2y agoDemocrats either already own EV's or will buy EV's anyway. The open question is does EV adoption go up among Republicans. I think it will, though I don't know to what extent. In general, I find surveys or self-reported data to be poor predictors of behavior.
- jgilias 2y agoThere are other EVs on the market. Much more reliable ones too. I’m actually amazed they’ve managed to pull off being the least reliable used car, given that the “competitors” have a lot more moving parts: https://en.cebia.com/detailArticle/the-most-and-least-reliable-used-cars-according-to-tuv-report-2025 https://en.cebia.com/detailArticle/the-most-and-least-reliab...
- echelon 2y ago> Democrats [...] will buy EV's anyway Tesla competitors. Giving fuel to the broader market, decreasing Tesla's market share, and calling into question the bull case for Tesla's highly inflated P/E ratio.
- diebeforei485 2y agoWe will see! I think Tesla will be just fine, they keep cutting manufacturing costs and therefore prices.
- Dudelander 2y agoMaybe in the long run but right now their stock is tanking.
- kemayo 2y agoTrump seems to be somewhat anti-EV (or, at least, doesn't want to push them in the same way Biden did), so it wouldn't surprise me if Republicans took their cues from him and stayed away. e.g. https://www.npr.org/2025/01/30/nx-s1-5272749/donald-trump-ev-electric-vehicles-subsidies-auto-industry https://www.npr.org/2025/01/30/nx-s1-5272749/donald-trump-ev...
- randerson 2y agoSurprising to see Toyota rate most favorably here. Unless you count hybrids, Toyota only sells 1 EV (the bZ4X) which has poor range and slow charging. Just goes to show the power of branding.
- jazzyjackson 2y agoTo me it reads as, "For those people looking to buy an EV, they have a favorable impression of the Toyota brand", i.e., they wish Toyota made a good EV but they'll probably end up with a Prius !
- seanmcdirmid 2y agoPrius buyers are pretty distinct from EV buyers. Hybrid buyers are looking for efficiency and don’t mind a clunky drive experience to pay for that efficiency. EV buyers are mostly looking for a great driving experience that you definitely wouldn’t get with a Prius, maybe a small sports car but they still want a family sedan or SUV.
- DecentShoes 2y agoYeah, that was an immediate red flag. Something's fucky here. Nobody likes the BZ4X, not even Toyota. I thought maybe they were including plugin hybrids or regenerative hybrids in with EVs (technically true but not the common usage of the word), but the report only mentions the words "plug" and "hybrid" once each, and in that context they are mentioning them separately. I guess it's possible alot of EV likers already have a Prius or something and really like it - that was me 2 years ago, it was a great car. But I still wouldn't have said I view Toyota favourably ever since it became clear they hate electric cars, and strange to see them ranked higher than Tesla. Something seems weird.
- dqv 2y agoWell that and this was a survey of regular consumers, not pedantic programmers who tend to fall into the premature optimization trap. Most consumers don't care about the distinction between an EV and a hybrid. This also wasn't a question about which brand they actually plan to buy from, but it does potentially indicate a willingness to pull back and pick something that is good enough (a hybrid) rather than "perfect" (an EV). It tracks with my own experience too - I have considered Tesla in the past, but a Prius Prime seems like a more sensible choice for what I need.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- DecentShoes 2y agoHow can Toyota even be on this list when they only sell one, terrible, hilariously overpriced electric car, and have stated numerous times they don't want anything to do with EVs? It's very disappointing. I loved my Prius and would have loved a good Toyota EV. I've even driven their hydrogen car and it's not bad. But they insist on doing a Blockbuster\Nokia\Blackberry\Kodak and we can't stop them.
- teeth-gnasher 2y agoBecause hybrids are the best EV’s and Toyota makes the best hubrids.
- bangaladore 2y agoCertainly depends what you believe defines "best". Hybrids have all the complexity of a ICE with most of the complexity of an EV. Particularly PHEVs. Hybrids, assuming they are reliable, exist to save on gas mileage and for that reason have value. PHEVs are overpriced hybrids IMO. As someone who drives an, admittedly top of the line, EV daily. I feel like PHEVs don't fit anywhere in the market. Hybrids will exist as long as consumer sentiment is EVs have range problems. Those consumers, I believe, are uninformed of the actual range of EVs and uninformed about how EV charging works (or should work).
- kemayo 2y agoI'd assume it's people who haven't done any research yet -- they said they want an EV, and then they got asked "do you like the idea of buying an EV from Brand X?". It's a pure gut feeling about the brand.
- apparent 2y agoThis shows how (un)informed the respondents were. The surveys seem to be specifically about EVs, not hybrids, given the reference to charging networks.
- timbit42 2y agoHave you heard of plug-in hybrids (PHEVs)?
- qwerpy 2y agoStill going strong with the Asian tech crowd, from what I see in the Bellevue (Seattle) area. We don’t care about politics (or we actually like Elon), and we don’t have many white friends that shame us about our cars. We just want dependable cars that have minimal maintenance. There aren’t that many of us though and we tend to keep our cars for a very long time.
- mplewis 2y agoIf you want a dependable car, why would you buy a Tesla? They consistently score bottom of the pack for reliability and repair times.
- toomuchtodo 2y agoTesla’s drivetrain and battery longevity is unmatched compared to legacy auto, but non powertrain reliability issues and repair times are legitimate points. https://www.notebookcheck.net/Model-Y-Juniper-expected-to-last-20-years-as-Tesla-vehicles-now-beat-diesel-car-lifespan-in-new-EV-longevity-study.956459.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Model-Y-Juniper-expected-to-la... https://www.notebookcheck.net/Fast-charged-Model-S-battery-gets-warranty-replacement-at-416-000-miles-in-a-testament-to-Tesla-longevity.863684.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Fast-charged-Model-S-battery-g... https://www.nature.com/articles/s41560-024-01698-1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41560-024-01698-1
- jordanb 2y agoThe resale value plunge that EVs take (especially Teslas) suggest that the market is skeptical of these longevity claims.
- FeloniousHam 2y agoI think you're correct about the market skepticism: there simply isn't enough long-term real world data to know how long an electric car's battery (the critical piece) or integrated systems will last. There's also the issue of rapid technological advancement, like in the smartphone/computer early days. We're still learning about the fundamentals, eg. battery composition, the seller pays for the risk the same dollar gets more (and better) miles. I'm quite confident ICE will very soon be a niche power source, I will boldly say the tipping point is 2030 :) https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-leads-vehicle-longevity-mileage-study-finds/#:~:text=The%20study%20revealed%20that%20electric%20vehicles%2C%20in,with%20an%20average%20lifespan%20of%2016.8%20years. https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-leads-vehicle-longevity-mile...
- b0sk 2y agoRivian R2 is going to change the game. It's a direct competitor to the best selling Tesla (Y). I have an R1S (as well as a Y) but R1S is such an amazing SUV to drive. Especially in the bad weather.
- esafak 2y agoRivians are so ugly.
- apparent 2y agoThis seems to be a matter of opinion. I think they look great!
- bangaladore 2y agoA non-produced theory of a car will always change the game. I hope it does well, but Rivian is still wildly in debt, not making a profit on vehicles (Maybe Q4 2024), etc... Let's wait until you can actually buy one and see what the price and specs are in reality.
- sebazzz 2y agoThe rest of the world aren't looking for huge cars.
- throwaway5752 2y agoBYD and Geely are demolishing Tesla on units shipped basis anyway everywhere in the world that Tesla isn't protected by policy. It is a shame because Musk would have owned this space if he had executed. His atrocious personal behavior distracts from what a terrible and unfocused executive he is. Tesla sales are declining, he failed to deliver on Hyperloop, he failed to deliver on Semis, and he will fail to deliver on FSD just like his myriad promises that he did not deliver on https://qz.com/elon-musks-worst-predictions-promises-1851410720 https://qz.com/elon-musks-worst-predictions-promises-1851410... Downvotes? BYD and Geely each shipped more cars in 2024 than Tesla. Together they more than tripled Tesla's units sold on a much higher growth rate. As an American citizen I consider it a tragedy, but a self-made one.
- tim333 2y agoDunno. If you look at Australia which is fairly neutral as they don't have their own car industry, Tesla are still ahead although they've fallen there too https://thedriven.io/2025/01/03/australian-electric-vehicle-sales-by-month-and-by-model-in-2024/ https://thedriven.io/2025/01/03/australian-electric-vehicle-...
- seanmcdirmid 2y agoMost of those Teslas are made in Shanghai though, so China is still winning market share with Tesla in Australia.
- somenameforme 2y agoOne way studies in science are 'faked' is by p-hacking. It turns out if you wiggle variables around enough, you can often find statistically significant data that isn't really relevant, but sounds like it could viably be. 538 has an excellent (and highly relevant) p-hacking demo based on real world data. [1] You want to "prove" that this party or that being in power has a statistically significant effect on the economy. It almost certainly doesn't, but if you tweak your sample enough you can "prove" that it does, in a way that sounds completely justifiable. So this study limited itself exclusively to people intending to buy an EV and within the next year. The fun thing about p-hacking is that it sounds reasonable. For instance on that page limit the data to Democrat presidents, employment, exclude recessions, and you can prove that having a Democrat president is good for the economy. And that data selection even sounds reasonable. But it's not. Musk not being fond of the political establishment is not exactly breaking news. Yet Tesla continues to dominate EV sales worldwide and domestically to the point that sales figures are broken down into "Tesla" and then "everybody else." And as others have mentioned Toyota dominating in this sample is quite indicative of the fact that they ended up surveying something besides EV favorability. [1] - https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/p-hacking/ https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/p-hacking/
- throwaway5752 2y agoTesla continues to dominate EV sales worldwide and domestically to the point that sales figures are broken down into "Tesla" and then "everybody else." That is false. BYD and Tesla both sold 1.7M last year if you are talking only EVs (BEV in BYD breakouts) which doesn't count BYD's 2.5M plugin hybrids. Teslas growth rate was flat and BYD's was a bit less than 50%. Let me know if I've made any mistakes there, though.
- somenameforme 2y agoWow yeah BYD went to the Moon in the final quarters, which I hadn't checked! Somehow I suspect this article wasn't talking about China though, which is clearly where Tesla really needs to step it up!
- 2y ago
- Animats 2y agoTesla, as a car company, keeps botching basic car company stuff. Reliability. Parts. Repair. Pricing. New models. - The Model 3 came out in 2017, which was a while back. The Model S did get a mid-cycle refresh. - The Cybertruck has been a dud. Sales are way down.[1] Rivian apparently outsells it. - By now, Tesla's Fake Self Driving isn't fooling anybody, now that people have seen Waymo really doing it. - Tesla is behind in batteries. They can now make round lithium-ion cells, the previous generation of technology. The current generation is more like BYD's "blade" battery, packaged up in rectangular modules. The next generation is fully solid state batteries, which CATL, BYD, Toyota, and Samsung are spending billions to make work. Tesla does not seem to be active in that area, beyond lab efforts. - China is getting rather good at making electric cars cheaply. It's not all labor cost. It's partly better design. BYD's "e-axle" is a unit with wheels, axles, differential, and motor. Plugs into a power electronics box and a battery. Plug in a CANbus cable to the controls and go. Simplifies manufacturing. - Tesla has repeatedly failed to get their costs down. Sales are down. Profits are down. - The CEO is not devoting full time to the job. These are all classic car-company mismanagement problems. There are points in GM, Chrysler, and VW history like that. Tesla likes to pretend they are a special snowflake, but they haven't been that for over a decade. [1] https://electrek.co/2025/01/02/tesla-cybertruck-sales-are-disastrous/ https://electrek.co/2025/01/02/tesla-cybertruck-sales-are-di...
- akmarinov 2y ago> The Model 3 came out in 2017, which was a while back. The Model S did get a mid-cycle refresh. The Model 3 got a refresh last year > Tesla is behind in batteries. They can now make round lithium-ion cells, the previous generation of technology. The current generation is more like BYD's "blade" battery, packaged up in rectangular modules. Tesla uses other people’s (usually Panasonic[1]) batteries, they manufacture them, but don’t develop them on their own. In China and Europe, they even use BYD’s blade batteries.[2] [1] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/panasonic-boost-battery-output-teslas-nevada-gigafactory-nikkei-2023-06-05/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/panaso... [2] https://carnewschina.com/2023/05/22/first-tesla-model-y-with-byd-blade-battery-rolled-off-the-production-line-in-germany-its-performance-is-surprising/ https://carnewschina.com/2023/05/22/first-tesla-model-y-with...
- soramimo 2y agoI had pre-ordered a Model 3 way back (ended up not buying it since they didn't come out with the "cheap version" until years later) and was planning to eventually get a Tesla after my ICE car taps out. Then it first slowly (never criticizing China or Russia), then quickly (making fun of Ukraine, going full MAGA) and eventually full steam (promoting Germany's anti-democratic far right AfD, the salute) it dawned on me that Elon doesn't give a damn about democracy (he is in fact throwing all his weight behind undermining it across the West). I care a lot about it, even if it may mean slower progress in some aspects (say compared to China); a system for non-violent regime change is a precious, happy accident of history that's worthwhile defending. Not buying a Tesla is the least I can do.
- kkfx 2y agoFor me against Tesla I have: - I want to POSSESS my car, so I do not want services and remote actions out of my control, Tesla is not the only vendor who try making the car a service, but due to it's track records the sole way to convince me is becoming FLOSS - I do want V2L/V2H with the best integration with my home p.v. possibly DC-2-DC directly, so far no cars offer something alike even if it's perfectly feasible, but Tesla do not offer even basic V2L...
- pragmatic 2y agoMAGA thinks EVs after going to blows up in their garage and kill them. That's why Elon did the hail Mary. He guessed EV was going to tank, he did the public heal turn, Tesla will bomb but then he'll get some crazy govt deal for every company. Here wants to be Boeing/Lockhead/GD, a nationally protected company with fat fat government contracts. Trump might throw him a bone. That's his reward for supporting 2025. The new deep state will happily create a new Howard Hughes. It's a grift. The grift of the century.