6 ms·

What if EU gives a year to American cloud providers to sell their companies to a European owner? It's important to learn from the best. Considering the electio

by mrtksn 2y ago

What if EU gives a year to American cloud providers to sell their companies to a European owner? It's important to learn from the best. Considering the election meddling efforts from agents directly from within the US government who are also owner of large media and AI companies the only reasonable outcome would be either sell those companies to EU owners or guarantee exclusion from EU markets for national security reasons.

belter 2y ago
Maybe AWS knew this. In China they already operate under a different company. "AWS plans to invest €7.8 billion into the AWS European Sovereign Cloud " - https://www.aboutamazon.eu/news/aws/aws-plans-to-invest-7-8-billion-into-the-aws-european-sovereign-cloud https://www.aboutamazon.eu/news/aws/aws-plans-to-invest-7-8-... "...The AWS European Sovereign Cloud will provide customers the capability to meet stringent operational autonomy and data residency requirements within the European Union (EU), with infrastructure wholly located within the EU and operated independently from existing Regions. The AWS European Sovereign Cloud will allow customers to keep all customer data and the metadata they create (such as the roles, permissions, resource labels, and configurations they use to run AWS) in the EU..."
- d1sxeyes 2y ago
  Yeah, they'll all just set up new opcos in the EU to carry on doing business, rather than actually selling up.
  - WJW 2y ago
    The goal of such regulation would be to reduce the amount of influence US tech billionaires can exert over the EU. Any regulation would be written with that in mind, so an opco which would still be controlled from the US is not in line with that goal. At the very least, regulation could enforce that any opcos (more joint ventures at that point) would be at least 51% owned and operated by EU entities.
- mrtksn 2y ago
  EU tried hard to guarantee open markets through rules based security but this is now out of fashion. Instead, the new game is to close your markets to foreigners and say its for national security reasons. This might be bad for the citizens as it is limiting and breaking the global humanity ideal and I hate it that this is happening but EU must be really stupid to have the only open market then get ridiculed for not having "global" tech companies. As it appears, the world going forward would be like the Chinese "tech" will be for 1.4B people, the US "tech" will be to 330M people and the EU "tech" will be for 450M people. At this time, because you can access the EU market form US you can just form your business in US and hire people from EU to do the work. If EU imposes limits, suddenly it makes sense to invest in EU. If you think about it, EU+UK+Asia taxpayers educate most of the "US talent". Very few of the people who invented the tech are US educated, the US educated ones tend to be the money guy or the entrepreneur free riding on foreign tax money. Time to end the EU subsidies to US companies or maybe impose tariffs to make up for it. US is being very bad for EU, doing very nasty stuff.
  - Maken 2y ago
    Do not forget the Indian "tech" for another 1.4B people. They are also placing restrictions on how Indian's data is handled on the cloud.
    - mrtksn 2y ago
      True, India is also a "tech" giant already. For them getting rid of foreigners is a piece of cake even if their average citizen is much poorer. The very large population is also an advantage. I don't know about countries like Brazil etc. but I am sure that they will notice the benefits of having local companies too.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    > EU must be really stupid to have the only open market then get ridiculed for not having "global" tech companies I'm not sure how these are related. The EU has far less money than the US for speculative, big payoff investments, to my knowledge. That's why there's less chance of creating new companies (and new markets) compared to the US.
- rcarmo 2y ago
  Everyone does that in China. You always need a separata contract with a cleared entity.
- Sander_Marechal 2y ago
  As long as it is a subsidiary of Amazon US in any way, shape or form, this won't work, because it's not safe from FISA.
jkaplowitz 2y ago
I get your comparison to the TikTok ban, but not even noyb is questioning the legality of transfers outside the EU to countries in general, whether pursuant to an European Commission adequacy decision or pursuant to Standard Contractual Clauses. The problem is specifically that US law and policy will make both of those options unviable to guarantee the rights GDPR requires with respect to transfers to the US, once noyb gets the EU courts to state this clearly enough and invalidate the Commission’s adequacy decision for businesses which participate in the EU-US Data Privacy Framework. (In the meantime, EU companies are allowed to rely on that decision.) There are several non-EU countries with adequacy decisions whose validity nobody is questioning, including Canada, New Zealand, and the UK. Many more countries can adequately be handled through Standard Contractual Clauses. The problem is very US-specific.
- mrtksn 2y ago
  I mean look, the details may vary but the core holds. The businesspeople running EUs communications are directly involved with the openly hostile US government and directly try to influence politics and create rage with the European public. The current open markets model is not working, time to copy from the success stories: Ban foreign ones or force them to become local. The current politicians are still in denial but as things deteriorate things will have to happen. Unlike US, European politics are not just two parties having about the same support. Things can get very spicy very quickly. You think the anti-establishment ones are pro-American? The most pro-American politicians are those in power or those who recently lost power to the anti-establishment. Pretty much non of the anti-establishent are pro-American(with the exception of UK with Farage) and with Musk targeting Farage I'm sure they took a note on how transactional their relationship with the US anti-establishment is.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    Whichever factions and sentiments gain power in the EU, there's only so much they can do before hitting the major factor that's usually not spelled out explicitly in polite company, but generally understood: the US has nukes and aircraft carriers. We don't - or at least not enough to replace US in the role it plays in Europe's security. I hope they won't be crazy enough to just bludgeon through that anyway, as past that, hic sunt dracones.
progbits 2y ago
Google could do this easily, there are whitelabel GCP offerings run by EU companies already: https://cloud.google.com/t-systems-sovereign-cloud?hl=en https://cloud.google.com/t-systems-sovereign-cloud?hl=en Hardware, personnel and all access is EU company. Google can provide updates they have to manually review and install, and provides support. It's pretty niche now but if demand grows more providers will spin up the same thing.
- mrtksn 2y ago
  That will probably work as long as it yields the desired results. It would be fine if ends up like this: https://a.dropoverapp.com/cloud/download/b053fcd7-4635-4508-8935-4aac272f0892/5d458422-3eea-472b-b010-b773f2ad3b4a https://a.dropoverapp.com/cloud/download/b053fcd7-4635-4508-...
- wink 2y ago
  The common opinion though is that if T-Systems runs it then no way of external knowledge will fix anything.
pandemic_region 2y ago
> What if EU gives a year to American cloud providers to sell their companies to a European owner? Well "liberty" will appear on our doorstep rather quickly, to free those clouds from the oppressive EU regime of course.
belorn 2y ago
The trend in EU is to tighten up regulation to the point where the achieved goals occurs fairly slow and steady. The goals are also not about ownership (there is no country called Europe, so what would it even mean?), but rather that the data and control remain within the jurisdiction of EU law and then ratified by each country. The results so far has been that most large companies has local legal presence within Europe, EU data centers, EU specific contracts with customers, and recently EU specific features in applications. It basically salami-tactics. Part of this strategy is also to use the court system to enforce specific aspects, like how part of GDPR is just now getting enforced after a case in March in 2024 by EDPS. The case initiated in 2021, GDPR was written 2016, so it also illustrate the pace. In the time between 2016 and now there are multiple new regulations, and those will also take time before they are fully enforced.
- mrtksn 2y ago
  I don't know about the hidden intentions but it appears that its time to switch the cutting style from salami to ribeye or arms and legs. >here is no country called Europe, so what would it even mean? Soon there will be, they are creating the 28th regime which is essentially a virtual country with a jurisdiction designed for speedy bureaucracy. I hope they do a good job with the implementation of the idea.
- Sander_Marechal 2y ago
  > but rather that the data and control remain within the jurisdiction of EU law The fundamental problem is that EU and US law are incompatible. FISA allows the US to access any data from any US company no matter where it is located. It doesn't matter that the data is located in the EU, on a European server, manager by the European division of a company. As long as there exists a US parent company, FISA can compel the data. And that is fundamentally against the GDPR.
epilogue 2y ago
It seems like Oracle Cloud have tried to do something along these lines, with their "EU Sovereign Cloud". I'm not actually sure if it's open to everyone or by application only tho. https://www.oracle.com/uk/cloud/eu-sovereign-cloud/ https://www.oracle.com/uk/cloud/eu-sovereign-cloud/

by mrtksn 2y ago

belter 2y ago

Maybe AWS knew this. In China they already operate under a different company. "AWS plans to invest €7.8 billion into the AWS European Sovereign Cloud " - https://www.aboutamazon.eu/news/aws/aws-plans-to-invest-7-8-billion-into-the-aws-european-sovereign-cloud https://www.aboutamazon.eu/news/aws/aws-plans-to-invest-7-8-... "...The AWS European Sovereign Cloud will provide customers the capability to meet stringent operational autonomy and data residency requirements within the European Union (EU), with infrastructure wholly located within the EU and operated independently from existing Regions. The AWS European Sovereign Cloud will allow customers to keep all customer data and the metadata they create (such as the roles, permissions, resource labels, and configurations they use to run AWS) in the EU..."

d1sxeyes 2y ago
Yeah, they'll all just set up new opcos in the EU to carry on doing business, rather than actually selling up.
- WJW 2y ago
  The goal of such regulation would be to reduce the amount of influence US tech billionaires can exert over the EU. Any regulation would be written with that in mind, so an opco which would still be controlled from the US is not in line with that goal. At the very least, regulation could enforce that any opcos (more joint ventures at that point) would be at least 51% owned and operated by EU entities.
mrtksn 2y ago
EU tried hard to guarantee open markets through rules based security but this is now out of fashion. Instead, the new game is to close your markets to foreigners and say its for national security reasons. This might be bad for the citizens as it is limiting and breaking the global humanity ideal and I hate it that this is happening but EU must be really stupid to have the only open market then get ridiculed for not having "global" tech companies. As it appears, the world going forward would be like the Chinese "tech" will be for 1.4B people, the US "tech" will be to 330M people and the EU "tech" will be for 450M people. At this time, because you can access the EU market form US you can just form your business in US and hire people from EU to do the work. If EU imposes limits, suddenly it makes sense to invest in EU. If you think about it, EU+UK+Asia taxpayers educate most of the "US talent". Very few of the people who invented the tech are US educated, the US educated ones tend to be the money guy or the entrepreneur free riding on foreign tax money. Time to end the EU subsidies to US companies or maybe impose tariffs to make up for it. US is being very bad for EU, doing very nasty stuff.
- Maken 2y ago
  Do not forget the Indian "tech" for another 1.4B people. They are also placing restrictions on how Indian's data is handled on the cloud.
  - mrtksn 2y ago
    True, India is also a "tech" giant already. For them getting rid of foreigners is a piece of cake even if their average citizen is much poorer. The very large population is also an advantage. I don't know about countries like Brazil etc. but I am sure that they will notice the benefits of having local companies too.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  > EU must be really stupid to have the only open market then get ridiculed for not having "global" tech companies I'm not sure how these are related. The EU has far less money than the US for speculative, big payoff investments, to my knowledge. That's why there's less chance of creating new companies (and new markets) compared to the US.
rcarmo 2y ago
Everyone does that in China. You always need a separata contract with a cleared entity.
Sander_Marechal 2y ago
As long as it is a subsidiary of Amazon US in any way, shape or form, this won't work, because it's not safe from FISA.

jkaplowitz 2y ago

I get your comparison to the TikTok ban, but not even noyb is questioning the legality of transfers outside the EU to countries in general, whether pursuant to an European Commission adequacy decision or pursuant to Standard Contractual Clauses. The problem is specifically that US law and policy will make both of those options unviable to guarantee the rights GDPR requires with respect to transfers to the US, once noyb gets the EU courts to state this clearly enough and invalidate the Commission’s adequacy decision for businesses which participate in the EU-US Data Privacy Framework. (In the meantime, EU companies are allowed to rely on that decision.) There are several non-EU countries with adequacy decisions whose validity nobody is questioning, including Canada, New Zealand, and the UK. Many more countries can adequately be handled through Standard Contractual Clauses. The problem is very US-specific.

mrtksn 2y ago
I mean look, the details may vary but the core holds. The businesspeople running EUs communications are directly involved with the openly hostile US government and directly try to influence politics and create rage with the European public. The current open markets model is not working, time to copy from the success stories: Ban foreign ones or force them to become local. The current politicians are still in denial but as things deteriorate things will have to happen. Unlike US, European politics are not just two parties having about the same support. Things can get very spicy very quickly. You think the anti-establishment ones are pro-American? The most pro-American politicians are those in power or those who recently lost power to the anti-establishment. Pretty much non of the anti-establishent are pro-American(with the exception of UK with Farage) and with Musk targeting Farage I'm sure they took a note on how transactional their relationship with the US anti-establishment is.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  Whichever factions and sentiments gain power in the EU, there's only so much they can do before hitting the major factor that's usually not spelled out explicitly in polite company, but generally understood: the US has nukes and aircraft carriers. We don't - or at least not enough to replace US in the role it plays in Europe's security. I hope they won't be crazy enough to just bludgeon through that anyway, as past that, hic sunt dracones.

progbits 2y ago

Google could do this easily, there are whitelabel GCP offerings run by EU companies already: https://cloud.google.com/t-systems-sovereign-cloud?hl=en https://cloud.google.com/t-systems-sovereign-cloud?hl=en Hardware, personnel and all access is EU company. Google can provide updates they have to manually review and install, and provides support. It's pretty niche now but if demand grows more providers will spin up the same thing.

mrtksn 2y ago
That will probably work as long as it yields the desired results. It would be fine if ends up like this: https://a.dropoverapp.com/cloud/download/b053fcd7-4635-4508-8935-4aac272f0892/5d458422-3eea-472b-b010-b773f2ad3b4a https://a.dropoverapp.com/cloud/download/b053fcd7-4635-4508-...
wink 2y ago
The common opinion though is that if T-Systems runs it then no way of external knowledge will fix anything.

pandemic_region 2y ago

> What if EU gives a year to American cloud providers to sell their companies to a European owner? Well "liberty" will appear on our doorstep rather quickly, to free those clouds from the oppressive EU regime of course.

belorn 2y ago

The trend in EU is to tighten up regulation to the point where the achieved goals occurs fairly slow and steady. The goals are also not about ownership (there is no country called Europe, so what would it even mean?), but rather that the data and control remain within the jurisdiction of EU law and then ratified by each country. The results so far has been that most large companies has local legal presence within Europe, EU data centers, EU specific contracts with customers, and recently EU specific features in applications. It basically salami-tactics. Part of this strategy is also to use the court system to enforce specific aspects, like how part of GDPR is just now getting enforced after a case in March in 2024 by EDPS. The case initiated in 2021, GDPR was written 2016, so it also illustrate the pace. In the time between 2016 and now there are multiple new regulations, and those will also take time before they are fully enforced.

mrtksn 2y ago
I don't know about the hidden intentions but it appears that its time to switch the cutting style from salami to ribeye or arms and legs. >here is no country called Europe, so what would it even mean? Soon there will be, they are creating the 28th regime which is essentially a virtual country with a jurisdiction designed for speedy bureaucracy. I hope they do a good job with the implementation of the idea.
Sander_Marechal 2y ago
> but rather that the data and control remain within the jurisdiction of EU law The fundamental problem is that EU and US law are incompatible. FISA allows the US to access any data from any US company no matter where it is located. It doesn't matter that the data is located in the EU, on a European server, manager by the European division of a company. As long as there exists a US parent company, FISA can compel the data. And that is fundamentally against the GDPR.

epilogue 2y ago

It seems like Oracle Cloud have tried to do something along these lines, with their "EU Sovereign Cloud". I'm not actually sure if it's open to everyone or by application only tho. https://www.oracle.com/uk/cloud/eu-sovereign-cloud/ https://www.oracle.com/uk/cloud/eu-sovereign-cloud/