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3D reconstruction of the capital of the Aztec empire
- m0llusk 2y agoInspiring in many ways, but also troubling. These people would have used fire for heating, cooking, and crafting, but there is no smoke. Depictions of ancient peoples that delete critical elements are troubling, distracting, and misleading.
- ferfumarma 2y ago> To mark the ending of the 52-year cycle, all fires in the Basin of Mexico are extinguished and then lit again from a single source, in what is called the New Fire Ceremony. So the renders are probably from right after the ceremony. Troublesome, distracting, misleading problem solved.
- ImPleadThe5th 2y agoBrother, just wait til you hear they didn't even bother to render each of the individual pieces of hay that made up their beds.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- precur 2y agoDiscussed previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37365215 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37365215 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37973229 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37973229
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- marstall 2y agostunning! though curious about the sewage situation.
- viciousvoxel 2y agoSewage was taken out of the city by boat via the system of chinampas, i.e. canals cutting through the man-made patches of reclaimed land within the lake. Almost all of this was destroyed/filled in under Spanish occupation and is likely one of the major factors in the spread of disease and decimation of the native population.
- ecocentrik 2y agoThat is tragic. Europeans, with inferior civil engineering skills but superior military weapons, decimate a civilization instead of transferring and absorbing their technology and then take a few hundred years to catch up. It's a tech lesson that some of us still fail to understand.
- kykeonaut 2y agoTurns out that Tlaxcaltecas did most of the work in conquering the Aztecs. They also had vast privileges granted by the Spanish once the conquest was over. For example, they were granted the title of Don. Not as black and white as it might seem.
- ecocentrik 2y agoYes, the Tlaxcaltecas defeated the Aztecs but they did not succeed in establishing themselves as the dominant power for very long. The Spanish returned with a greater military force and eventually dominated them. There is admittedly plenty of nuance but my comment was intended to decry the tragedy of conquest, where a conquering party does not recognize the genius of technology implemented by the conquered party and proceeds to destroy that technology, to their own detriment.
- threatripper 2y agoFascinating how some road paths have endured the centuries.
- sayrer 2y agoYep. You can see it on the map in the Museo Nacional de Antropología. El periférico ("the ring highway") and other major roads follow the old causeways. I have been there many times in my life, maybe 30 or 40.
- beepbooptheory 2y agoThe thing thats wild about Tenochtitlan, as the story goes, is that the Aztec people discovered it themselves, and no one really knows who originally built it!
- loloquwowndueo 2y agoYou’re thinking of another city, very likely Teotihuacán. Tenochtitlán was built from scratch by the aztecs. (Either that or please give sources for your statement).
- viciousvoxel 2y agoParent is probably thinking of Teotihuacán which is nearby. We do know who built it but there is relatively little know about them (compared to the Aztecs). The ruins of Teotihuacán were discovered by the Aztecs and they were mythologized, for instance even the name "Teotihuacán" is the Aztec (Nahuatl) name for the city meaning "the place where gods were created."
- ks2048 2y agoMaybe they are referring to the fact that the Mexica came from elsewhere and founded the city and there were already other people/cities in the area. It seems the Valley of Mexico has been inhabited since around 12,000BC, so not surprising there isn't history of the first people there.
- loloquwowndueo 2y agoNope. It was just an honest mistake see response from parent.
- beepbooptheory 2y agooops yes, definitely was thinking of Teotihuacán.. My bad!
- shermantanktop 2y ago
- tempodox 2y agoThis is so awesome. I want a time machine to go visit there, if only as an intangible ghost.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- xandrius 2y agoI think I'd only go back as an intangible ghost, unaffected by disease, needs and danger. Basically I'm imagining a VR with an immersive window to the past, not actually going back.
- ks2048 2y agoI'm reading a book about the Aztecs now (Fifth Sun). The meeting of the Spanish with the Mexica has to be the most epic event in human history. Tragic what was lost. Kudos to the artist for this.
- elnatro 2y agoNot to the future victims of the Aztecs.
- oskarkk 2y agoThank god the Europeans have never killed anyone.
- elnatro 2y agoThey weren’t doing human sacrifices at that time at least.
- inkyoto 2y agoIs torturing (and the mutilation of a human body and sometimes death as a frequent outcome of the torture process) and burning people at the stake after an auto-da-fé for not believing in someone else’s mythical deity fundamentally different from human sacrifice?
- southernplaces7 2y agoNot to defend the brutal fanaticism of 15th century catholicism in Europe and the new colonies, but you should read in depth about the sheer scale of Aztec blood sacrifice. It put the Inquisition to shame with its savagery and quantities of victims.
- elnatro 2y agoThe Inquisition did not exterminate to the level of the Aztecs. Aztecs were sacrificing people by the thousands. Indeed natives were a crucial part in the conquest of the Aztec Empire by the Spaniards. Some sources: https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p09x1374/the-huge-tower-of-human-skulls-unearthed-in-mexico-city https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p09x1374/the-huge-tower-of-hu... https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/new-find-brings-skulls-discovered-aztec-tower-over-600-180976543/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/new-find-brings-sk...
- 29athrowaway 2y agoCahokia is another interesting place.
- sizzzzlerz 2y agoLooks like a scene from some of the ages in the old Myst PC game.
- winslett 2y agoDo all of these comments seem like they are AI generated to anyone else?
- zamadatix 2y agoWe've long passed the point where I can tell a good AI comment from a real one at a quick read through of a comments section. It's only the blatantly bad ones (blocks of listicles we delve into) which stick out like a sore thumb. That said, I think that says more about how good AI has become than it hints all the long established accounts in this thread using one just because they could.
- lastdong 2y agoWith AI assistants on our phones, it can be hard to tell the difference, and people often use it for completeness or clarity. Blind AI rephrasing has a cost though, sacrificing your personal voice, and often resulting in overly enthusiastic and repetitive sentences. (re-reading this, it sounds just like AI!)
- tecleandor 2y ago> (re-reading this, it sounds just like AI!) That's what an AI would say!
- lastdong 2y ago;)
- ecocentrik 2y agoThe presence of a comprehensive urban plan for all of these cities, with a clear grid subdivided into districts is extremely impressive. By contrast most European cities were organic and unplanned mazes.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- throwup238 2y agoThe grid is still visible in Mexico City today. All the canals you see in the reconstruction essentially became the streets as they were gradually filled in.
- noelwelsh 2y agoAs a counterpoint, I much prefer the street layout of European cities to grids. I don't think the grid is particularly impressive; just a sign of a particular urban organization.
- venusenvy47 2y agoWhat type of layout do these use?
- noelwelsh 2y agoIt's basically a tree.
- staplung 2y agoNot to undermine what they did in any way but one thing the Mexica had that favored a strong grid with central planning was that each new bit of the city was built on land that had to be created from scratch. If you're going to build a new "neighborhood" from the lake, might as well make it rectangular. To some extent, they didn't even have to dig their canals, just leave bits of the lake not filled in (though there is more to making canals than just digging a ditch). Having said all that it certainly seems that ancient Meso-American city builders of all stripes were really into grid-tastic cities, at least for the monumental cores with the temples, ball courts etc.
- scld 2y agoThis is what I want to explore with a VR headset.
- StepWeiwu 2y agoFor anyone interested in what the Americas looked like before and after Columbus, I highly recommend the two books, 1491[1] and 1493[2], by Charles C. Mann. I finish the first one and I'm half way through the second one and really openend my eyes. Great reads! [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/39020.1491?ref=nav_sb_ss_1_4 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/39020.1491?ref=nav_sb_ss... [2] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9862761-1493 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9862761-1493
- UI_at_80x24 2y agoBoth books are great. Loved the revelation of planted food forests.
- bennyfreshness 2y agoAlso "The Conquest of New Spain" .. written as a first hand account by a soldier for Cortes. Obviously cruel and exploitative what the conquistadors did, but it's an example how fact can be sometimes more incredible than fiction. How a small band of soldiers got in way over their heads and had to bluff and bully their way through, or would have certainly been killed. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/108490.The_Conquest_of_New_Spain https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/108490.The_Conquest_of_N...
- crooked-v 2y agoOf course, another major factor there is that just about everyone subject to the Aztecs hated them for a variety of reasons, but most obviously all the raiding/kidnapping and blood sacrifice. That's not to say the Spanish Empire was necessarily better, but their opportunities would have been much slimmer if the Aztecs had been even a little bit less all-around cruel.
- lucretian 2y agoif you enjoyed that, i very much recommend this work of historical fiction: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/127938747-you-dreamed-of-empires https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/127938747-you-dreamed-of...
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- pfannkuchen 2y agoI’m not sure why there isn’t more of an active association between so-called “Hispanics” in North America and the Aztecs and other pre-European cultural groups in the area. The current “Hispanics” are largely descended from the natives, I think? I put “Hispanics” in quotes because it’s pretty weird to be labeled by the language of your conquerors who don’t even control anything in the area anymore.
- lupusreal 2y agoThe genetic background of Hispanics varies considerably from individual to individual, a lot of them are lily white by any visual measure and most of them have considerable if not majority European ancestry. In any case, culturally it's no contest; they have far more in common with European cultures than the Aztecs. Remember that most of them are Catholics, not humans sacrificing sun worshipers.
- artistic_regard 2y ago[dead]
- jcranmer 2y ago> The current “Hispanics” are largely descended from the natives, I think? You can generally divide most of the Americas into three categories: (mostly) pure indigenous ancestry, mixed ancestry (Mestizo is the common term), and (mostly) European ancestry. In regions where slavery was important, you also have significant groups of African ancestry, mixed African/indigenous ancestry, and sometimes Asian ancestry from post-slavery labor importation. In most of the Americas, the dominant ethnic group is mestizo. Greenland is the only country where indigenous peoples are the clear majority, and Guatemala is probably the only other country where indigenous comes closest to being a plurality over mestizo. (The degree to which modern people accept indigenous versus mestizo as a term varies from country to country). > I put “Hispanics” in quotes because it’s pretty weird to be labeled by the language of your conquerors who don’t even control anything in the area anymore. The vast majority of modern Latin Americans speak Spanish or another European language as their dominant language.
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- blancotech 2y agoI’m very impressed. It would be great to see similar maps reconstructions for other ancient cities like this! For those who want to see the before and after of Manhattan, I highly recommend reading Mannahatta https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5955328-mannahatta https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5955328-mannahatta
- wlll 2y agoThere's a podcast I really enjoy that has an episode on the rise and fall of the aztecs, highly recommended: https://fallofcivilizationspodcast.com/2019/12/16/episode-9-is-now-live/ https://fallofcivilizationspodcast.com/2019/12/16/episode-9-...
- NickC25 2y agoVery cool. I've lived in and spent a ton of time in Mexico city , and this is really on-point. Would love to see more of these.
- BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 2y agoThe Reconquista had finally driven out the Moors from Spain in 1492 - 26 years before Cortez entered Tenochtitlan and began the dismantling of indigenous religion. The Spanish Catholics were the Wahhabis of the day. Thought Experiment: If the Iberian Moors were still in power in 1518,would we today be calling Latin Americans "Arabs"? Similarly, popular opinion in Israel likes to call Palestinians "Arabs" because they adopted the language of their conquerors.
- bbor 2y agoThat's an interesting juxtaposition. I was going to comment on another (insightful!) comment here about how "the only indigenous-majority country is Greenland" brings up just how Americas-centric (plus the commonwealth...) the term "indigenous" is in the first place, and this is a great illustration of that IMO. Hopefully we can all agree that applying the term even to the British Isles gets really tough, and it gets downright impossible if you try to do it to somewhere like Palestine. And it's no mystery why it has such big sway today in commonwealth countries as opposed to the relatively-minor importance it has in Latin America... In case anyone wasn't aware, the British Empire (and early US!) were definitely the baddies. I just recently found this quote by Jacob Howard, the liberal abolitionist senator who drafted the first sentence of the US's 14th Amendment, that I think shows how deep the assumption of animosity ran: I am not yet prepared to pass a sweeping act of naturalization by which all the Indian savages, wild or tame, belonging to a tribal relation, are to become my fellow-citizens and go to the polls and vote with me. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_M._Howard#Speech_on_the_proposed_14th_Amendment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_M._Howard#Speech_on_the_... On another note: you likely know this, but Columbus only got funding for his voyage because the monarchs were doing their victory-lap after finally conquering the last stronghold of the Iberian Moors, Granada. So it's all quite connected, not just by chance. It's semi-common knowledge among nerds that the Islamic Golden Age isn't appreciated enough in western culture beyond "someone presumably was on the other side of the Crusades", but this is making me consider how the age of discovery's push for colonization might've been driven/inspired by a feeling of jealousy and inferiority compared to the rapid growth of the Islamic emirates...
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- jostmey 2y agoDid the floating city actually have lots of trees?
- marc_abonce 2y agoYes, chinampas can have some types of trees on their borders. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinampa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinampa
- mkl 2y ago(2023) 101 comments at the time, including from the creator: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37973229 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37973229
- stubish 2y agoThere are also some articles talking about Thomas Kole doing the 3d modeling from about a year ago: https://english.elpais.com/culture/2024-02-13/the-lost-city-of-tenochtitlan-recreated-from-the-apartment-of-a-dutch-computer-scientist.html https://english.elpais.com/culture/2024-02-13/the-lost-city-... https://www.wired.com/story/explore-tenochtitlan-ancient-aztec-capital-3d-render-thomas-kole/ https://www.wired.com/story/explore-tenochtitlan-ancient-azt...