7 ms·

Linux is in desperate need of a PR campaign. The popular distros are just as functional out of the box as Windows, but no one knows it.

tassadarforaiur 2y ago
Valve expanding steamos compatibility might be the closest we're getting.Hopefully their flavour is viable for a variety of computers by windows 10 sunset date.
beart 2y ago
In my experience, it is not about functionality. It is about polish, integrations, and troubleshooting. If you assume all your devices and software will work on Linux mint out of the box, great. But they won't. Then you end up spending hours trying to get the 5th mouse button to do what it does automatically in Windows. Sure there's a fancy utility on Linux that supports programming that mouse, good luck getting your mother to figure that out.
- wpm 2y ago
  That’s if you can even connect to the internet! Have an older device? It maybe didn’t come with WiFi, or came with an older card you replaced with a better one. Better hope the distro and version of that distro you picked has a kernel with drivers already baked in! Otherwise it’s off to some random git following some random “download this source” and oh wait I’m not connected to the Internet.
  - kjellsbells 2y ago
    I know the jungle of PCs has some strange beasts in it, but I still suspect that there is a very strong Pareto curve, even considering the kinds of PCs that the stereotypical retired parents have. If Ubuntu (say) decided that they were going to release a version for Windows refugees,they could probably mop up 75% of the market by focusing on Dell hardware and Logitech peripherals, and get to 80+ with HP and whoever the number 3 vendor was. Leave the 2005-era Packard Bell junk to Windows, define the base level, and partner officially with these vendors to get access to their build sheets and specs to deliver a solid path out of Windows. It could be done. (It wont be done, though, cos theres no money in it)
    - genewitch 2y ago
      Debian derivatives work fine with 99% of older hardware, say pre-2021. 802.11n is fine for HD youtube, too.
  - vladvasiliu 2y ago
    Well, latest windows 11 installer doesn't detect my laptop's touchpad nor trackpoint, nor wifi adapter. Sure, I usually have a mouse lying around which works, but not a network adapter. So I had to go look up on the internet how to convince it to go past the installer without insisting on connecting to the internet. Spoiler alert: it was some obscure command in the terminal. This is a 2020 full-intel, basic enterprise machine, nothing fancy. Worked fully out of the box under Linux, including sleep. The display output was borken for about a year under Windows (wouldn't output 4k@60 without doing a stupid plug-unplug-replug-just-at-the-right-time dance). At one point, installing the latest driver from intel worked, but Windows would helpfully "update" it to an earlier, borked version every other day. My point is that the current hardware situation seems pretty much hit-and-miss, and figuring that running windows to avoid fiddling with drivers and whatnot isn't such a sure-thing as people in this thread make it out to be.
  - modo_mario 2y ago
    I've had very much the opposite experience with old wifi dongles and the like. I can think of only one example where it was the other way around...but at least i got it working.
- keyringlight 2y ago
  This seems to be my experience too. The "linux is a great simple windows alternative" attitude works great so long as your usage follows well trodden paths, but otherwise you end up in the weeds quickly. The kinds of usages that consumer windows has had and the software ecosystem that's promoted for 3+ decades compared to what has been developed for linux affects this too. Windows is extremely broad in all the software available for all the little utilities users are going to look for, and hardware it's going to need to support (and support well). Even trying to pull windows applications that don't do anything too complex over to linux via Wine is very much a YMMV area. It's impressive what has been accomplished and the recent rate of progress, but there's always more to do so it's not an awkward, poorer version of doing the same task in windows. The aspect I wonder about is what proportion of the 60% of people still using win10 are actually aware or care about it going end of life, assuming windows doesn't auto-update to 11 for them any EOL warning will just be swatted away like most other annoyances so they can get on with their intended task. Getting that type of user to switch to linux seems like it'd remain a herculean task.
- vladvasiliu 2y ago
  I think it's about habit more than anything. People are used to Windows' sharp edges and have developed workarounds (just reboot it). But no, the experience is nowhere near "polished", and troubleshooting is a joke. "Something unexpected happened" or "contact your administrator" isn't exactly helpful. Sure, there may be some log somewhere in that godawful event viewer, but who has the patience to wait for that abomination to load? And then to go spelunking in the millions of categories? Windows is hands-down the most annoying and janky computing experience among all my devices. I put up with it because I like Photoshop, and since I have PCs lying around can't justify buying a MacBook (plus Linux works well enough for all my other needs). HiDPI support is a joke, with windows showing up wherever they want, the start menu becoming blurry, taskbar menus appearing at random locations on the screen. The windows jump up and down when switching virtual desktops. Windows appear as active, complete with a blinking cursor and everything, yet won't register text input until I click on them. I could go on for days.
  - skeaker 2y ago
    "Just reboot it" is 1000x more polished than having to jump into the terminal or reinstall your OS (both of which are 100% inaccessible to the average user). Troubleshooting can be done by googling your issue on Windows whereas Linux has dozens of repos with that all require different troubleshooting steps on much more niche websites that won't come up on the first page of google while the average user doesn't know what the hell a GNOME or a KDE is. Windows wins 100-0 in terms of polish in the eyes of the average user, and that's saying something given that it's not very polished as you said.
    - olyjohn 2y ago
      Please. The standard for fixing Windows has been to backup and reinstall the OS for as long as I have used it. You can spend days trying to fix a problem with the OS, or just reinstall it in a couple of hours, most people go for the quick and easy reinstall. This is standard for phones, tablets too, since you can't actually even attempt to fix them.
      - 2y ago
- jenscow 2y ago
  "mother" has no need for a 5 button programmable mouse, nor does she have a need for applications beyond the web browser. No troubleshooting required.
  - butlike 2y ago
    just dont turn her around and have her be a skeleton, please
  - Daunk 2y ago
    I second this. A lot of technical people struggle with Linux, and I think a lot of that is because they have a way of working and they want to force whatever they use to work like that. While less technical people just use whatever they're given. My father and my grandmother both use Linux, and they don't even know it and there are no issues.
    - genewitch 2y ago
      I do IT for free for anyone in my city (its small), and I tend to just give people elitedesks with Linux on them to replace aged Walmart PCs. YouTube and email is what most people do at home, that and Amazon/whatever. I got to thinking in this thread I can even convert the "gamer" types to Linux - I need to make sure Facebook games work on chromium... And show them Steam.
  - beart 2y ago
    Right, it's better to dictate how things should be when the user doesn't care and doesn't have the background. Which is probably why most people in the category are using iPhones and Chromebooks, not Linux mint.
diggan 2y ago
> The popular distros are just as functional out of the box as Windows, but no one knows it. As always, it depends on what the user uses the computer for. Not everyone can run Windows full-time, as some applications don't work on Linux. I am a full-time Linux user for decades at this point, yet I still use applications that only run on Windows and are too latency sensitive to run well through a VM (and don't work at all via Wine). Maybe though, these applications could get some love if there was a PR campaign for people to move to Linux...
p_ing 2y ago
Linux is in desperate need of a stable ABI that isn't Win32 as well as a stable, unified Window Server.
- chupasaurus 2y ago
  IBM employee without a disclosure? /sarcasm
- marcodiego 2y ago
  Snaps, flatpaks and appimages are converging to that. Slowly indeed, but they are.
Alifatisk 2y ago
> The popular distros are just as functional out of the box as Windows Give me some names that works out of the box and resembles Windows. I have not tried Linux mint so I don't know how well it works for older people. Ubuntu has been quite good and stable but it has also required fiddling with the terminal. The only one I found to be the best alternative to Windows is ... believe it or not, DeepinOS.
- dbcjv7vhxj 2y ago
  PopOS is more Mac than windows but it's what you're after.
  - butlike 2y ago
    KDE is as close to win as you can get on a linux kernel
    - dbcjv7vhxj 2y ago
      Kde isn't a distro?
- graemep 2y ago
  Why is resembles Windows important? Macos does not and is doing fine, so is Chromeos, so is Android. Even Windows can be quite different from older versions of Windows.
  - bigstrat2003 2y ago
    Because if you wish to convince people they should switch from Windows, that's a very important factor. People do not like change, and they want the skills they have to transfer over as much as possible.
    - StefanBatory 2y ago
      My parents would break down in panic if they did as much as moved a single icon to the left on Android phones. To them it was almost as if they broke the phone.
butlike 2y ago
We're just 5 years away from... - AGI/ASI - Fusion Energy - Linux overtaking Windows
- electrosphere 2y ago
  2025 - Year of the Linux Desktop
- marcosdumay 2y ago
  If the current exponential holds, we are ~40 years away from Linux overtaking Windows. (The exponent has been increasing since MS decided to snapshot the user screen all the time. But it's hard to say if it's just noise.)
dehrmann 2y ago
There are too many distros. Even the Gnome/KDE split has been unproductive. Desktop linux would have done better with more resources polishing a single product rather than making 20 half-baked products.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  It doesn't really matter how many distros there are. If you're a new user, just use Debian Stable or Ubuntu LTS.
  - BobaFloutist 2y ago
    It does if every comment saying "Just use" has a different arcane incantation after it, and three comments under it saying why that specific version sucks and you should actually use something else.
    - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
      They don't though. The recommendations for new users are nearly universally to use Debian or one of its most popular derivatives like Ubuntu or Mint, which are all very similar to one another and share the large majority of their code. It's like saying Windows has too many versions because there is Home/Pro/Education/Enterprise and then 23H2 vs. 24H2 etc. There is barely any difference between them. The distro wars are a bunch of programmers arguing about which one has the best toys for power users. Any of them will run a web browser and the boring popular Debian Stable or LTS derivatives are the ones least likely to deliver unscheduled maintenance as a result of an update.

tassadarforaiur 2y ago

Valve expanding steamos compatibility might be the closest we're getting.Hopefully their flavour is viable for a variety of computers by windows 10 sunset date.

beart 2y ago

In my experience, it is not about functionality. It is about polish, integrations, and troubleshooting. If you assume all your devices and software will work on Linux mint out of the box, great. But they won't. Then you end up spending hours trying to get the 5th mouse button to do what it does automatically in Windows. Sure there's a fancy utility on Linux that supports programming that mouse, good luck getting your mother to figure that out.

wpm 2y ago
That’s if you can even connect to the internet! Have an older device? It maybe didn’t come with WiFi, or came with an older card you replaced with a better one. Better hope the distro and version of that distro you picked has a kernel with drivers already baked in! Otherwise it’s off to some random git following some random “download this source” and oh wait I’m not connected to the Internet.
- kjellsbells 2y ago
  I know the jungle of PCs has some strange beasts in it, but I still suspect that there is a very strong Pareto curve, even considering the kinds of PCs that the stereotypical retired parents have. If Ubuntu (say) decided that they were going to release a version for Windows refugees,they could probably mop up 75% of the market by focusing on Dell hardware and Logitech peripherals, and get to 80+ with HP and whoever the number 3 vendor was. Leave the 2005-era Packard Bell junk to Windows, define the base level, and partner officially with these vendors to get access to their build sheets and specs to deliver a solid path out of Windows. It could be done. (It wont be done, though, cos theres no money in it)
  - genewitch 2y ago
    Debian derivatives work fine with 99% of older hardware, say pre-2021. 802.11n is fine for HD youtube, too.
- vladvasiliu 2y ago
  Well, latest windows 11 installer doesn't detect my laptop's touchpad nor trackpoint, nor wifi adapter. Sure, I usually have a mouse lying around which works, but not a network adapter. So I had to go look up on the internet how to convince it to go past the installer without insisting on connecting to the internet. Spoiler alert: it was some obscure command in the terminal. This is a 2020 full-intel, basic enterprise machine, nothing fancy. Worked fully out of the box under Linux, including sleep. The display output was borken for about a year under Windows (wouldn't output 4k@60 without doing a stupid plug-unplug-replug-just-at-the-right-time dance). At one point, installing the latest driver from intel worked, but Windows would helpfully "update" it to an earlier, borked version every other day. My point is that the current hardware situation seems pretty much hit-and-miss, and figuring that running windows to avoid fiddling with drivers and whatnot isn't such a sure-thing as people in this thread make it out to be.
- modo_mario 2y ago
  I've had very much the opposite experience with old wifi dongles and the like. I can think of only one example where it was the other way around...but at least i got it working.
keyringlight 2y ago
This seems to be my experience too. The "linux is a great simple windows alternative" attitude works great so long as your usage follows well trodden paths, but otherwise you end up in the weeds quickly. The kinds of usages that consumer windows has had and the software ecosystem that's promoted for 3+ decades compared to what has been developed for linux affects this too. Windows is extremely broad in all the software available for all the little utilities users are going to look for, and hardware it's going to need to support (and support well). Even trying to pull windows applications that don't do anything too complex over to linux via Wine is very much a YMMV area. It's impressive what has been accomplished and the recent rate of progress, but there's always more to do so it's not an awkward, poorer version of doing the same task in windows. The aspect I wonder about is what proportion of the 60% of people still using win10 are actually aware or care about it going end of life, assuming windows doesn't auto-update to 11 for them any EOL warning will just be swatted away like most other annoyances so they can get on with their intended task. Getting that type of user to switch to linux seems like it'd remain a herculean task.
vladvasiliu 2y ago
I think it's about habit more than anything. People are used to Windows' sharp edges and have developed workarounds (just reboot it). But no, the experience is nowhere near "polished", and troubleshooting is a joke. "Something unexpected happened" or "contact your administrator" isn't exactly helpful. Sure, there may be some log somewhere in that godawful event viewer, but who has the patience to wait for that abomination to load? And then to go spelunking in the millions of categories? Windows is hands-down the most annoying and janky computing experience among all my devices. I put up with it because I like Photoshop, and since I have PCs lying around can't justify buying a MacBook (plus Linux works well enough for all my other needs). HiDPI support is a joke, with windows showing up wherever they want, the start menu becoming blurry, taskbar menus appearing at random locations on the screen. The windows jump up and down when switching virtual desktops. Windows appear as active, complete with a blinking cursor and everything, yet won't register text input until I click on them. I could go on for days.
- skeaker 2y ago
  "Just reboot it" is 1000x more polished than having to jump into the terminal or reinstall your OS (both of which are 100% inaccessible to the average user). Troubleshooting can be done by googling your issue on Windows whereas Linux has dozens of repos with that all require different troubleshooting steps on much more niche websites that won't come up on the first page of google while the average user doesn't know what the hell a GNOME or a KDE is. Windows wins 100-0 in terms of polish in the eyes of the average user, and that's saying something given that it's not very polished as you said.
  - olyjohn 2y ago
    Please. The standard for fixing Windows has been to backup and reinstall the OS for as long as I have used it. You can spend days trying to fix a problem with the OS, or just reinstall it in a couple of hours, most people go for the quick and easy reinstall. This is standard for phones, tablets too, since you can't actually even attempt to fix them.
    - 2y ago
jenscow 2y ago
"mother" has no need for a 5 button programmable mouse, nor does she have a need for applications beyond the web browser. No troubleshooting required.
- butlike 2y ago
  just dont turn her around and have her be a skeleton, please
- Daunk 2y ago
  I second this. A lot of technical people struggle with Linux, and I think a lot of that is because they have a way of working and they want to force whatever they use to work like that. While less technical people just use whatever they're given. My father and my grandmother both use Linux, and they don't even know it and there are no issues.
  - genewitch 2y ago
    I do IT for free for anyone in my city (its small), and I tend to just give people elitedesks with Linux on them to replace aged Walmart PCs. YouTube and email is what most people do at home, that and Amazon/whatever. I got to thinking in this thread I can even convert the "gamer" types to Linux - I need to make sure Facebook games work on chromium... And show them Steam.
- beart 2y ago
  Right, it's better to dictate how things should be when the user doesn't care and doesn't have the background. Which is probably why most people in the category are using iPhones and Chromebooks, not Linux mint.

diggan 2y ago

> The popular distros are just as functional out of the box as Windows, but no one knows it. As always, it depends on what the user uses the computer for. Not everyone can run Windows full-time, as some applications don't work on Linux. I am a full-time Linux user for decades at this point, yet I still use applications that only run on Windows and are too latency sensitive to run well through a VM (and don't work at all via Wine). Maybe though, these applications could get some love if there was a PR campaign for people to move to Linux...

p_ing 2y ago

Linux is in desperate need of a stable ABI that isn't Win32 as well as a stable, unified Window Server.

chupasaurus 2y ago
IBM employee without a disclosure? /sarcasm
marcodiego 2y ago
Snaps, flatpaks and appimages are converging to that. Slowly indeed, but they are.

Alifatisk 2y ago

> The popular distros are just as functional out of the box as Windows Give me some names that works out of the box and resembles Windows. I have not tried Linux mint so I don't know how well it works for older people. Ubuntu has been quite good and stable but it has also required fiddling with the terminal. The only one I found to be the best alternative to Windows is ... believe it or not, DeepinOS.

dbcjv7vhxj 2y ago
PopOS is more Mac than windows but it's what you're after.
- butlike 2y ago
  KDE is as close to win as you can get on a linux kernel
  - dbcjv7vhxj 2y ago
    Kde isn't a distro?
graemep 2y ago
Why is resembles Windows important? Macos does not and is doing fine, so is Chromeos, so is Android. Even Windows can be quite different from older versions of Windows.
- bigstrat2003 2y ago
  Because if you wish to convince people they should switch from Windows, that's a very important factor. People do not like change, and they want the skills they have to transfer over as much as possible.
  - StefanBatory 2y ago
    My parents would break down in panic if they did as much as moved a single icon to the left on Android phones. To them it was almost as if they broke the phone.

butlike 2y ago

We're just 5 years away from... - AGI/ASI - Fusion Energy - Linux overtaking Windows

electrosphere 2y ago
2025 - Year of the Linux Desktop
marcosdumay 2y ago
If the current exponential holds, we are ~40 years away from Linux overtaking Windows. (The exponent has been increasing since MS decided to snapshot the user screen all the time. But it's hard to say if it's just noise.)

dehrmann 2y ago

There are too many distros. Even the Gnome/KDE split has been unproductive. Desktop linux would have done better with more resources polishing a single product rather than making 20 half-baked products.

AnthonyMouse 2y ago
It doesn't really matter how many distros there are. If you're a new user, just use Debian Stable or Ubuntu LTS.
- BobaFloutist 2y ago
  It does if every comment saying "Just use" has a different arcane incantation after it, and three comments under it saying why that specific version sucks and you should actually use something else.
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    They don't though. The recommendations for new users are nearly universally to use Debian or one of its most popular derivatives like Ubuntu or Mint, which are all very similar to one another and share the large majority of their code. It's like saying Windows has too many versions because there is Home/Pro/Education/Enterprise and then 23H2 vs. 24H2 etc. There is barely any difference between them. The distro wars are a bunch of programmers arguing about which one has the best toys for power users. Any of them will run a web browser and the boring popular Debian Stable or LTS derivatives are the ones least likely to deliver unscheduled maintenance as a result of an update.