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Ask HN: How to handle pushback on a team switch?

• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• curious_curios 2y ago
  The VP is looking out in their best interests, the IC should do the same and move to the new team on the original schedule. Any promise not in writing will disappear most of the time, even then it can be walked back.
• codingdave 2y ago
  This conversation should never have to happen -- If you sincerely want to move within an organization, you should already have documented your current role sufficiently for someone new to take it over, and ideally mentored a replacement for yourself. Then you are prepared for any move available to you. As a general rule, once you get beyond the initial junior -> mid -> senior level early career hops.... promotions are not given because you did your job well. They are given when you lift up your peers or direct reports to be able to to do your job well.
  • rednafi 2y ago
    I agree in general. However, let's say an internal transfer isn't guaranteed and interviews are involved. In that scenario, when the IC gets the green signal from the other team, how does training another person come into play? I understand the documentation and handover part, which can be done in a few weeks. But finding a replacement and training them take longer.
    • manfre 2y ago
      It's not the IC who needs to find their replacement for a team. That's the responsibility of a team lead or VP. In my experience, those who think it is the ICs responsibility, they lack proper boundaries and contribute to an unhealthy work environment.
  • swiftcoder 2y ago
    > If you sincerely want to move within an organization, you should ... ideally mentored a replacement for yourself This just isn't feasible in a lot of orgs. There often isn't the budget allocated to hire a suitably-levelled replacement until the senior-most IC announces they are leaving. Should you be making sure your junior engineers are equipped to handle the day-to-day? Yes. Should you be putting them in the line-of-fire with the VPs? Probably not.
• deleted 2y ago
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• scarface_74 2y ago
  Interview for another company. When you interview you get to control the narrative and don’t have to worry about the promo doc. You’ll probably end up making less after your promotion than someone coming in at the same level.
• bloomingkales 2y ago
  It's entirely possible the VP exerted energy for the IC. It's entirely possible they feel feelings. It's entirely possible IC feels its a burden to deal with the situation, would prefer it not be that serious (because it is, someone believed in you), and would like to move on. You can have a small one-on-one conversation and air it out. Explain that you are honored to be considered, and perhaps that discussion can lead to a better end here, versus a bitter one. We cannot constantly run from the fact that we deal with human beings with emotions in this life, as clinical as we want to be.
  • conductr 2y ago
    This. Have a conversation, voice gratitude and appreciation, voice your reasoning for wanting a change and ask they support you in that end. Together, devise a specific wind down plan that’s not time based.
  • Merliololo 2y ago
    A good VP knows VERY well that people want to move on. Only shitty VPs clinge on people like this. Your IC is an expert in developing / doing the things, the VP should be an expert in managing. every other scenario are bad managers who act like children and do guilte trips to keep people because they don't know better.
    • blitzar 2y ago
      An amazing VP hears about something on another team and chucks it your way. For the really really slick operator this is a way to extend their powerbase throughout the org.
      • Merliololo 2y ago
        I have no clue how a VP could 'chuck' it from one team to another. Normally teams have ownership on specific topics. But yes of course, if this is possible and 'chcusk it your way' is the same thing as 'delegating efficient' i do agree.
  • 2y ago
• tacostakohashi 2y ago
  If people mention dubious and vague things about future promotions, raises, etc... I just tell them politely but clearly that I can only make decisions on the basis of information that is presently available and verifiable. If they're serious, they'll be able to substantiate with something written, corroborated by more senior folks, etc. You'll almost certainly find that its just puffery, but if you give them a chance to substantiate and they don't, then they don't get to feel untrusted/betrayed later.
  • batch12 2y ago
    That's fair. Sadly, It's been my experience at some bigger companies that even the VP doesn't have the final say in securing a promotion. Especially for a more senior level role. What I've seen happen instead is guidance from HR to avoid discussing promotion attempts altogether which also seems terrible for all involved.
    • alistairSH 2y ago
      There should be (but often isnt) a matrix of job tiers and responsibilities. If such a thing exists, managers can work with ICs to gain the type of experience to move up AND then make a case to senior leadership.
• lostdog 2y ago
  Emphasize the other reasons for the team switch, and don't talk about the promo likelihood difference. Talk about how you've always wanted to try working on that field, and how this opportunity just came up and you've got to try it. Thank the VP for all their work on getting you a path to promo. For switching, tell the VP you'll ask the new team what's possible. Go to your new VP and tell them that old VP wants this, but make it implicitly clear that you don't want this. Go back to your old VP and tell them that you don't think the long transfer period is going to work with the new team (but you tried!), but that you will still be around to help the team answer any questions. Once you switch, deprioritize the old team. Deprioritize them slowly enough that you keep a good relationship with old VP, but let it be pretty clear that you're not gonna be doing any coding and only the bare minimum of consulting. You should only debate promo likelihood while you're still on the team. Once you've decided to leave, drop it from discussion.
  • rednafi 2y ago
    Highlighting what the IC wants instead of the promo thingy is a great piece of advice.
    • Simon_O_Rourke 2y ago
      Agreed, otherwise it smacks of sour grapes and might come back to bite you on the new team, i.e., "they only joined the new team because they got upset about a promotion".
      • mcny 2y ago
        But that is the fact, isn't it? If the individual contributor could get a promotion in their old team, I assume they would stay there? This is about managing the "optics" but it doesn't change the facts?
        • monsieurbanana 2y ago
          When you send a cover letter to apply for a job, you wouldn't say you want to work there because of the salary. Yet we all know.
• protocolture 2y ago
  In my experience if you think its time to move, commit to it 100% or not at all. Offers to stay tend to be full of bullshit. I have fielded 3 offers to stay instead of moving on, and the only one I regretted was the offer I accepted. 2 of these times, I was basically being offered a "Promotion" but in in both cases it was seat warming duty while the owner ran for the exit. In 1 of these cases I ended up as a consultant at the acquiring firm, for nearly twice the money, having to coax the seat warmers who took the position I was offered through the process of integrating the acquisition. Those arent internal moves but the last example isnt far off. Also: I found that if you are concerned about damaging the relationship, the relationship isnt that strong / worth holding on to.
• alexchamberlain 2y ago
  I would lean the the skip level managers on both sides of the move. Leaders should be looking out for the overall wellbeing of the IC and the company, not just their individual team. Hopefully, the skip levels are more mature about the whole process.
  • swiftcoder 2y ago
    if the IC is actually discussing their promo case with a VP, as the OP suggests, then there aren't a whole lot of skip-levels in this scenario...
• bythreads 2y ago
  Wh not transition out?, sure fire way to promo on switch (i mean to the next corp)
• bartvk 2y ago
  What does IC mean, besides Integrated Circuit?
  • rubenvanwyk 2y ago
    Individual Contributor.
    • adastra22 2y ago
      It can also mean independent contractor, which made it very confusing.
  • Browun 2y ago
    I believe in this context they’re referring to an Individual Contributor. Pulling the definition from indeed.com: > a professional without management duties and responsibilities who contributes to a company independently to support its mission and goals. While they typically report to someone within the company, individual contributors aren't responsible for managing anyone except for themselves.
• austin-cheney 2y ago
  * Don’t confuse signals for reality. If a promotion is not explicit it does not exist. * Only wear the title they provide you, don’t make your own. * Accomplish what is asked of you. Again, don’t confuse signals for reality. How badly they want something accomplished, and in what way they want it accomplished, is directly proportional to the explicitness of the ask. * If you work for a sociopath throw all these rules out the window and either go work somewhere else or be their carpet for them to wipe their feet on.
• andy_ppp 2y ago
  The VP sounds like they are trying to guilt and manipulate you into doing what they want. Just move teams is my advice, and as soon as possible. There should probably be precedent for the amount of notice moving team happens in the past, find some examples (cherry picked if need be) and just say 4 weeks is standard at the org and I’ll hand over in that time. You can say you’re always available to support previous team members as required. In conclusion be nice but don’t take any shit, this VP doesn’t have your best interests at heart otherwise they’d wish you well.
• thecupisblue 2y ago
  It's insane that instead of actually contributing to value/growth driver, our IC's - the highly paid, sought after experts actually creating the value - have to deal with this kind of political bullshit.
  • rednafi 2y ago
    It’s part of the journey. Every place I’ve worked with more than a handful of people had its own version of politics. It’s just human nature. Ironically, the places that claimed to be free of internal politics often had the most.
• LLcolD 2y ago
  I don't see what VP would get by forcing an IC to remain in a team that the IC doesn't want to be part of anymore. If VP's signals about promotion were not backed by some form of agreement, I can't blame the IC for looking for another place under the sun. I have issues when companies don't support vertical/horizontal movement among the teams. It is in human nature to develop different interests.
• djmips 2y ago
  Quit is always an option. Otherwise why not a face to face meeting with VP.
• jmisavage 2y ago
  Promises mean nothing. A couple of months ago, I was promised a promotion during the next review cycle. This week, HR announced at an all-hands that there won't be a review cycle or raises at all this year. The anger and disappointment I feel right now are off the charts. Do what's best for you. If you're trying to keep things smooth, cut the grace period to a month max with a clear ramp-down plan. If you had quit, they wouldn’t have gotten even that.
• pjmlp 2y ago
  Usually the only way to sort this out is to change companies, and always be clear about not wanting promos that end up in management roles.
  • lazyasciiart 2y ago
    I think in this story they do want the promo, and have decided they are being strung along.
    • rednafi 2y ago
      Yeah, OP here. In this case, the IC wants the promo as it’s not a management role (although the post doesn’t explicitly say that I admit).
  • rednafi 2y ago
    > […] not wanting promos that end up in management roles I have always wanted to stay an IC, do the job well, and forget about work when I’m done. This advice go well with that.
• ein0p 2y ago
  Your scenario does not have enough information for valid advice. This is a negotiation, and you haven't mentioned what your leverage is, if any. If you have none, you're at their mercy, and negotiation is impossible - you will have to do as they say. If you have some (such as being valuable to the company and a possible flight risk), then you can just put your cards on the table. A manager worth their salt will try to retain a hard-to-replace employee. This only works, however, if you're prepared to walk away, so I'd get another offer in advance.
• alistairSH 2y ago
  What’s the old adage? People leave managers, not jobs. VP never should have over promised on promotion or raise. Probably can’t say that to the old boss/VP even if it’s true. So tell a little white lie and sooth the VP’s fragile ego.