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In other words, the left needs to learn how to love the right (and many people within the left). But I don't know if that's the case. I think there are a lot of

In other words, the left needs to learn how to love the right (and many people within the left). But I don't know if that's the case. I think there are a lot of people on the right who want the left to love them but believe that the people on the left do not love them. I believe the problem is that people need to learn how to feel loved. To realize that even our enemies are trying their best and most likely care about us a lot more than they would ever admit. Both sides struggle with this. People on the current left tend to just resign and give up on the relationships. People on the right tend to seek vengeance.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
tsimionescu 2y ago
[flagged]
- scarab92 2y ago
  Clearly you don’t really understand what a purity spiral is. Ultimately, the left numerically cannot win an election until they escape it. It’s up to them whether they do.
  - jimkleiber 2y ago
    Not sure if this was to me (I hate that HN anonymizes so much, it doesn't understand the importance of personal context in communication), but I just looked up purity cycle and didn't find anything but found purity spiral, is that what you meant? > A purity spiral is a theory which argues for the existence of a form of groupthink in which it becomes more beneficial to hold certain views than to not hold them, and more extreme views are rewarded while expressing doubt, nuance, or moderation is punished (a process sometimes called "moral outbidding").[1] It is argued that this feedback loop leads to members competing to demonstrate the zealotry or purity of their views.[2][3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_spiral https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_spiral
    - scarab92 2y ago
      Sorry, that was directed at tsimionescu and their Hitler analogy.
- jimkleiber 2y ago
  Well we can sit and hope that the other side solves the problem, while they sit and hope we solve it, and remain stuck in a never-ending cycle of blame and waiting. Or someone can have the courage to change the situation. The nice benefit is that by ridding the hate in ourselves, we feel better even if the other side doesn't.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  “And that’s why I’m the proud founder of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews“ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National...!
tremendoussss 2y ago
I am exactly who you are talking about, I live in a very purple city in the midwest. I grew up in a town of 3000 people, my family was Amish 4 generations ago. I'm also a 90s kid and grew up on south park. Turned into a redneck hippy. It's a complete social poison pill in the city to have voted a certain way. Have had the same look of "how could you be that dumb" from people ranging from strippers to lawyers. All I want is love and belonging, not sure how to feel love when I've heard the word "barbarian" to describe certain types of people. Not sure how to feel love when men's loneliness and suicide problems aren't being prioritized Yeah, the hurt turns into anger sometimes, but yes, I need them too. For me to exist, my opposite has to exist, and I should love us both.
- jimkleiber 2y ago
  I appreciate you sharing this story. I'm from the suburbs of Detroit and while I voted for Kamala, I have a lot of friends and family who either openly voted for Trump or who I imagine secretly did. And while it can be so hard for me to not call them stupid (I tend to default to insulting people's intelligence sometimes because I feel so confident in mine), I try really hard to see how they're really just struggling/suffering. And it can hurt me so much when I see people in my life attack people very hard for voting for Trump. The ones in my life who voted for him sometimes seem to be the ones who are craving the most social connection, the most interaction, and don't get it. They seem to want to engage with people and sometimes the best way to engage is to say something controversial. Like the kid who can't get the mom's attention and so starts hitting her in the leg. People on the right are not a basket of deplorables, they're human beings who want love and attention, often from those who they fear think they're better than them. Often from those they admire the most, who keep ignoring them and running away from them. So thank you for sharing this and helping me see this even more deeply and lovingly.
  - tomrod 2y ago
    You see the same desperation when a religion starts faltering/drying up. Loads of good folks start to break away. Those that remain tend to be beneficiaries from the system, or are sociopaths who don't know how to adapt, or are gullible folks who don't know how to discern lying, or are andbusy folks for whom inertia is less painful than change. I see that in politics in a lot of ways. I'm still figuring out my concept model for it, but the experience of religious exit is showing similarities.
scarab92 2y ago
Purity spirals are a social dynamic where members of a group compete to demonstrate ever-increasing levels of ideological purity. Moderate perspectives are seen as dissenters and are shunned as the group becomes more radicalised. It's a big problem for the left because numerically they are now the minority of voters, but are still trending away from the center, and shedding their more moderate members.
- api 2y ago
  It's true, but so has the right in recent years. The center is increasingly alienated and homeless.
  - scarab92 2y ago
    We know it's not as much of a problem on the right, because the rate of party switching is still far lower on the right than the left, by a factor of about 1:4. On the right, you can be shunned by MAGA or shunned by the religious right, but still be welcome within the republican party. On the left, you cannot challenge with any of the tent pole policies without being shunned entirely.
    - api 2y ago
      I think YMMV here based on who you're around. If you're right-leaning in an urban setting or a coastal city, you'll find a lot of heterodox views. If you live in the Rural South or Rural Midwest and do not almost literally worship Donald Trump, you are shunned. The opposite is true for the left and the Democratic Party. Those circles tend to be very orthodox if you live in a lefty urban area. Disagree with one major platform issue and you're immediately suspected. If you're in the suburbs or a rural area you'll find that left-leaning people are much more heterodox. Purity spirals are most intense in enclaves, which are echo chambers. You'll find the same phenomenon online with regard to echo chambers. If you're in a left or right wing echo chamber, the purity spiral phenomenon is intense.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

tsimionescu 2y ago

[flagged]

scarab92 2y ago
Clearly you don’t really understand what a purity spiral is. Ultimately, the left numerically cannot win an election until they escape it. It’s up to them whether they do.
- jimkleiber 2y ago
  Not sure if this was to me (I hate that HN anonymizes so much, it doesn't understand the importance of personal context in communication), but I just looked up purity cycle and didn't find anything but found purity spiral, is that what you meant? > A purity spiral is a theory which argues for the existence of a form of groupthink in which it becomes more beneficial to hold certain views than to not hold them, and more extreme views are rewarded while expressing doubt, nuance, or moderation is punished (a process sometimes called "moral outbidding").[1] It is argued that this feedback loop leads to members competing to demonstrate the zealotry or purity of their views.[2][3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_spiral https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_spiral
  - scarab92 2y ago
    Sorry, that was directed at tsimionescu and their Hitler analogy.
jimkleiber 2y ago
Well we can sit and hope that the other side solves the problem, while they sit and hope we solve it, and remain stuck in a never-ending cycle of blame and waiting. Or someone can have the courage to change the situation. The nice benefit is that by ridding the hate in ourselves, we feel better even if the other side doesn't.
ceejayoz 2y ago
“And that’s why I’m the proud founder of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews“ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National...!

tremendoussss 2y ago

I am exactly who you are talking about, I live in a very purple city in the midwest. I grew up in a town of 3000 people, my family was Amish 4 generations ago. I'm also a 90s kid and grew up on south park. Turned into a redneck hippy. It's a complete social poison pill in the city to have voted a certain way. Have had the same look of "how could you be that dumb" from people ranging from strippers to lawyers. All I want is love and belonging, not sure how to feel love when I've heard the word "barbarian" to describe certain types of people. Not sure how to feel love when men's loneliness and suicide problems aren't being prioritized Yeah, the hurt turns into anger sometimes, but yes, I need them too. For me to exist, my opposite has to exist, and I should love us both.

jimkleiber 2y ago
I appreciate you sharing this story. I'm from the suburbs of Detroit and while I voted for Kamala, I have a lot of friends and family who either openly voted for Trump or who I imagine secretly did. And while it can be so hard for me to not call them stupid (I tend to default to insulting people's intelligence sometimes because I feel so confident in mine), I try really hard to see how they're really just struggling/suffering. And it can hurt me so much when I see people in my life attack people very hard for voting for Trump. The ones in my life who voted for him sometimes seem to be the ones who are craving the most social connection, the most interaction, and don't get it. They seem to want to engage with people and sometimes the best way to engage is to say something controversial. Like the kid who can't get the mom's attention and so starts hitting her in the leg. People on the right are not a basket of deplorables, they're human beings who want love and attention, often from those who they fear think they're better than them. Often from those they admire the most, who keep ignoring them and running away from them. So thank you for sharing this and helping me see this even more deeply and lovingly.
- tomrod 2y ago
  You see the same desperation when a religion starts faltering/drying up. Loads of good folks start to break away. Those that remain tend to be beneficiaries from the system, or are sociopaths who don't know how to adapt, or are gullible folks who don't know how to discern lying, or are andbusy folks for whom inertia is less painful than change. I see that in politics in a lot of ways. I'm still figuring out my concept model for it, but the experience of religious exit is showing similarities.

scarab92 2y ago

Purity spirals are a social dynamic where members of a group compete to demonstrate ever-increasing levels of ideological purity. Moderate perspectives are seen as dissenters and are shunned as the group becomes more radicalised. It's a big problem for the left because numerically they are now the minority of voters, but are still trending away from the center, and shedding their more moderate members.

api 2y ago
It's true, but so has the right in recent years. The center is increasingly alienated and homeless.
- scarab92 2y ago
  We know it's not as much of a problem on the right, because the rate of party switching is still far lower on the right than the left, by a factor of about 1:4. On the right, you can be shunned by MAGA or shunned by the religious right, but still be welcome within the republican party. On the left, you cannot challenge with any of the tent pole policies without being shunned entirely.
  - api 2y ago
    I think YMMV here based on who you're around. If you're right-leaning in an urban setting or a coastal city, you'll find a lot of heterodox views. If you live in the Rural South or Rural Midwest and do not almost literally worship Donald Trump, you are shunned. The opposite is true for the left and the Democratic Party. Those circles tend to be very orthodox if you live in a lefty urban area. Disagree with one major platform issue and you're immediately suspected. If you're in the suburbs or a rural area you'll find that left-leaning people are much more heterodox. Purity spirals are most intense in enclaves, which are echo chambers. You'll find the same phenomenon online with regard to echo chambers. If you're in a left or right wing echo chamber, the purity spiral phenomenon is intense.