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by 9dev 2y ago

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maeln 2y ago
Eh. Pretty much everyone called what happened in Gaza an attempt at genocide, including many Israeli scholar. The wiki page [1] list some source from the U.N, various NGO, ... Amos Goldberg ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amos_Goldberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amos_Goldberg ) called it a genocide, and the ICC launched an investigation (ofc, blocked by Israel). Is Hamas a terrorist group ? Yeah, by many definitions. But if you accept this, you also cannot not see how what Israel did in Gaza, and has been doing for years with Palestinian, is not genocide: Force displacement of vast amount of population, regularly blockading humanitarian aid, mass destruction of civilian infrastructure, mass imprisonment, often with little to no representation, mass killing of civilian (it is estimated, by many source, that roughly 45000 Palestinian died, of which at least ~80% where civilian) ... This is the textbook definition of genocide. If you accept the Shoah, the Armenian genocide, the genocide of the tutsis, ... You cannot logically not see this as a Palestinian genocide. As for the U.S involvement, that's honestly not for me to say. I am not a us citizen. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_genocide_accusation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_genocide_accusatio...
- Ste_Tokyo 2y ago
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  - maeln 2y ago
    > The Arabs of the Western half of the Palestinian mandate refused to accept a state in 1948 A state that was imposed on them. And which state are you even talking about ? If it is the U.N proposition for the partition of Palestine, Israel also never accepted it and disregarded it entirely. > That is not genocide. Mass displacement of a population, destroying their civil infrastructure, kill civilian on mass is the definition of genocide. > Hamas’s constitution explicitly calls for the killing of all Jews in Israel. And that is why Hamas is a terrorist organization. > Congratulations on siding with the genocidal maniacs, Jew haters, and murderers. Hamas thanks you. I never sided with Hamas. You are just spouting hatred. A sad continuation of this conflict.
    - Ste_Tokyo 2y ago
      The state was not as a fact imposed on the Palestinians. After centuries living under empires, they were offered a state for the first time ever by the UN in 1947 but turned it down. Instead they decided to go to war to destroy Israel and have been trying to do so ever since. That was their choice. It has worked out very badly for them because they keep making the same stupid mistakes driven by Jew hatred. The current war was started by Hamas and they knew exactly what the outcome would be - thousands of deaths of their own people. They sacrificed their own people to use it as a political tool by which they aim to get the political support of useful idiots like you against Israel. It is a sick policy carried out by sick people. This is not genocide; it is a war, started by Hamas who wanted the results we see.
- edanm 2y ago
  > you also cannot not see how what Israel did in Gaza, and has been doing for years with Palestinian, is not genocide In what way is "what Israel has done for years" genocide, if we're not including the response to October 7th? > mass killing of civilian (it is estimated, by many source, that roughly 45000 Palestinian died, of which at least ~80% where civilian) ... Every civilian death is tragic. But if civilians aren't targeted, but are killed as part of other military actions, then it is the unfortunate and terrible reality of war. Unless you consider every war genocide, this doesn't show that it was a genocide. (I'm not sure your 80% number if anywhere near accurate, btw.) > If you accept the Shoah, the Armenian genocide, the genocide of the tutsis, ... You cannot logically not see this as a Palestinian genocide. Let's make clear the difference. In the Shoah (Holocaust), Jews were rounded up, sent to concentration camps, then killed by various means. They were not a hostile armed group, not in a territory that was controlled by militants, or anything like that. They were literally civilians that were rounded up and killed. None of that applies in Gaza. Civilians are not rounded up and killed. They are killed as terrible, horrible collateral damage while attempting to kill militants. If the militants, who are their current government, were to put down their arms - the war would be over immediately. Also - since the Holocaust, the Jewish population still hasn't recovered its numbers. The Gazan population has only increased. This isn't proof of anything (it can be an attempted genocide even with a low count of dead), but you're comparing ~30k civilian deaths to 6 million Jewish deaths in the Holocaust. > Eh. Pretty much everyone called what happened in Gaza an attempt at genocide, including many Israeli scholar. Many people have called it a genocide. Many people called it a genocide two days into the war, and some have been saying Israel is committing genocide for years, which makes you think it's something they think without Israel's actual actions since October 7th having any relevance to it. But by no means "pretty much everyone" calls it a Genocide. What determines whether something is a genocide is not a show of hands of a select group of organizations.
mandmandam 2y ago
Genocide denial is a really, really bad look. If you care to educate yourself on this, here are some resources: https://www.academia.edu/112967602/Bearing_Witness_to_the_Israel_Gaza_War_updated_to_15_April_2024_ https://www.academia.edu/112967602/Bearing_Witness_to_the_Is... (paper by an Israeli academic with over a thousand sources) https://x.com/AgnesCallamard/status/1871157783069929592 https://x.com/AgnesCallamard/status/1871157783069929592 (A long list of links to declarations by human rights orgs, UN sources, ICJ submissions etc) https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240516-israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza-new-study-concludes/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240516-israel-committing... (from a coalition of prestigious universities)
Hikikomori 2y ago
It was a genocide long before October 7th.
- Ste_Tokyo 2y ago
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  - Hikikomori 2y ago
    It can be a genocide before they're all dead you know. If we go by your definition the holocaust wasn't one either.
    - Ste_Tokyo 2y ago
      The stated objective of the Final Solution was to murder literally every Jew in Europe, thus the “Final”. The stated objective of Hamas, voted into power by the Arabs of Gaza, is to murder literally every Jew in Israel. I don’t think that anywhere in the Likud manifesto for the democratic elections of the democratic state of Israel it states that genocide of the Gazans is a policy. Do you see the difference between a democratic state with the rule of law and a gang of self-declared genocidal terrorists? Obviously not.
      - Hikikomori 2y ago
        The current Hamas charter states that they fight Zionism, not for them being jews but for their own stated goal of stealing their land, which they have and are continuing to do. Why are you trying to pretend that Israel have not had far right forces within it for a very long time, they're currently in power. I'm not saying that Hamas is good by saying that Israel is also bad, both are bad, but only one of them came there with the goal to steal the land of the people living there. Part of Likuds founding charter is this phrase: Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty. Sounds familiar? https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/12/amnesty-international-concludes-israel-is-committing-genocide-against-palestinians-in-gaza/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/12/amnesty-inter...
Ste_Tokyo 2y ago
And what Native American tribes sometimes did to each other was genocide. There were lots of actors in the fight for the American land mass - the US , the British Empire, the French Empire, Mexico, the Japanese were even having a look. So I don’t think it is as simple as saying the US committed genocide of the Native Americans, who were actually many different tribes often warring with each other. Their way of life was bound to largely die out once the modern world arrived.

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by 9dev 2y ago

[flagged]

Eh. Pretty much everyone called what happened in Gaza an attempt at genocide, including many Israeli scholar. The wiki page [1] list some source from the U.N, various NGO, ... Amos Goldberg ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amos_Goldberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amos_Goldberg ) called it a genocide, and the ICC launched an investigation (ofc, blocked by Israel). Is Hamas a terrorist group ? Yeah, by many definitions. But if you accept this, you also cannot not see how what Israel did in Gaza, and has been doing for years with Palestinian, is not genocide: Force displacement of vast amount of population, regularly blockading humanitarian aid, mass destruction of civilian infrastructure, mass imprisonment, often with little to no representation, mass killing of civilian (it is estimated, by many source, that roughly 45000 Palestinian died, of which at least ~80% where civilian) ... This is the textbook definition of genocide. If you accept the Shoah, the Armenian genocide, the genocide of the tutsis, ... You cannot logically not see this as a Palestinian genocide. As for the U.S involvement, that's honestly not for me to say. I am not a us citizen. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_genocide_accusation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_genocide_accusatio...

Ste_Tokyo 2y ago
[flagged]
- maeln 2y ago
  > The Arabs of the Western half of the Palestinian mandate refused to accept a state in 1948 A state that was imposed on them. And which state are you even talking about ? If it is the U.N proposition for the partition of Palestine, Israel also never accepted it and disregarded it entirely. > That is not genocide. Mass displacement of a population, destroying their civil infrastructure, kill civilian on mass is the definition of genocide. > Hamas’s constitution explicitly calls for the killing of all Jews in Israel. And that is why Hamas is a terrorist organization. > Congratulations on siding with the genocidal maniacs, Jew haters, and murderers. Hamas thanks you. I never sided with Hamas. You are just spouting hatred. A sad continuation of this conflict.
  - Ste_Tokyo 2y ago
    The state was not as a fact imposed on the Palestinians. After centuries living under empires, they were offered a state for the first time ever by the UN in 1947 but turned it down. Instead they decided to go to war to destroy Israel and have been trying to do so ever since. That was their choice. It has worked out very badly for them because they keep making the same stupid mistakes driven by Jew hatred. The current war was started by Hamas and they knew exactly what the outcome would be - thousands of deaths of their own people. They sacrificed their own people to use it as a political tool by which they aim to get the political support of useful idiots like you against Israel. It is a sick policy carried out by sick people. This is not genocide; it is a war, started by Hamas who wanted the results we see.
edanm 2y ago
> you also cannot not see how what Israel did in Gaza, and has been doing for years with Palestinian, is not genocide In what way is "what Israel has done for years" genocide, if we're not including the response to October 7th? > mass killing of civilian (it is estimated, by many source, that roughly 45000 Palestinian died, of which at least ~80% where civilian) ... Every civilian death is tragic. But if civilians aren't targeted, but are killed as part of other military actions, then it is the unfortunate and terrible reality of war. Unless you consider every war genocide, this doesn't show that it was a genocide. (I'm not sure your 80% number if anywhere near accurate, btw.) > If you accept the Shoah, the Armenian genocide, the genocide of the tutsis, ... You cannot logically not see this as a Palestinian genocide. Let's make clear the difference. In the Shoah (Holocaust), Jews were rounded up, sent to concentration camps, then killed by various means. They were not a hostile armed group, not in a territory that was controlled by militants, or anything like that. They were literally civilians that were rounded up and killed. None of that applies in Gaza. Civilians are not rounded up and killed. They are killed as terrible, horrible collateral damage while attempting to kill militants. If the militants, who are their current government, were to put down their arms - the war would be over immediately. Also - since the Holocaust, the Jewish population still hasn't recovered its numbers. The Gazan population has only increased. This isn't proof of anything (it can be an attempted genocide even with a low count of dead), but you're comparing ~30k civilian deaths to 6 million Jewish deaths in the Holocaust. > Eh. Pretty much everyone called what happened in Gaza an attempt at genocide, including many Israeli scholar. Many people have called it a genocide. Many people called it a genocide two days into the war, and some have been saying Israel is committing genocide for years, which makes you think it's something they think without Israel's actual actions since October 7th having any relevance to it. But by no means "pretty much everyone" calls it a Genocide. What determines whether something is a genocide is not a show of hands of a select group of organizations.

mandmandam 2y ago

Genocide denial is a really, really bad look. If you care to educate yourself on this, here are some resources: https://www.academia.edu/112967602/Bearing_Witness_to_the_Israel_Gaza_War_updated_to_15_April_2024_ https://www.academia.edu/112967602/Bearing_Witness_to_the_Is... (paper by an Israeli academic with over a thousand sources) https://x.com/AgnesCallamard/status/1871157783069929592 https://x.com/AgnesCallamard/status/1871157783069929592 (A long list of links to declarations by human rights orgs, UN sources, ICJ submissions etc) https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240516-israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza-new-study-concludes/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240516-israel-committing... (from a coalition of prestigious universities)

Hikikomori 2y ago

It was a genocide long before October 7th.

Ste_Tokyo 2y ago
[flagged]
- Hikikomori 2y ago
  It can be a genocide before they're all dead you know. If we go by your definition the holocaust wasn't one either.
  - Ste_Tokyo 2y ago
    The stated objective of the Final Solution was to murder literally every Jew in Europe, thus the “Final”. The stated objective of Hamas, voted into power by the Arabs of Gaza, is to murder literally every Jew in Israel. I don’t think that anywhere in the Likud manifesto for the democratic elections of the democratic state of Israel it states that genocide of the Gazans is a policy. Do you see the difference between a democratic state with the rule of law and a gang of self-declared genocidal terrorists? Obviously not.
    - Hikikomori 2y ago
      The current Hamas charter states that they fight Zionism, not for them being jews but for their own stated goal of stealing their land, which they have and are continuing to do. Why are you trying to pretend that Israel have not had far right forces within it for a very long time, they're currently in power. I'm not saying that Hamas is good by saying that Israel is also bad, both are bad, but only one of them came there with the goal to steal the land of the people living there. Part of Likuds founding charter is this phrase: Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty. Sounds familiar? https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/12/amnesty-international-concludes-israel-is-committing-genocide-against-palestinians-in-gaza/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/12/amnesty-inter...

Ste_Tokyo 2y ago

And what Native American tribes sometimes did to each other was genocide. There were lots of actors in the fight for the American land mass - the US , the British Empire, the French Empire, Mexico, the Japanese were even having a look. So I don’t think it is as simple as saying the US committed genocide of the Native Americans, who were actually many different tribes often warring with each other. Their way of life was bound to largely die out once the modern world arrived.