4 ms·

I'm curious if what is happening in the US and what has happened in Britain with Brexit actually ends up slowing some of these marches towards illiberalism in o

I'm curious if what is happening in the US and what has happened in Britain with Brexit actually ends up slowing some of these marches towards illiberalism in other places. Like when people are upset at the direction of a country or current policies, they may take a "throw the bums out" attitude even if the alternative is far worse. But perhaps they're looking at the complete shit show in the US and how unproductive Brexit was and are thinking "OK, maybe not like that..." I mean, it sounds like Canada is more united than it's been in a long time in its shared opposition to Trump.

littlestymaar 2y ago
In France at least, Brexit made the idea of leaving the EU obsolete in political discourse, both on the left and far right. But at the same time French media just repeated the “it's a clumsy handwave from an autistic dude” narrative after Musk's Nazi salute so I'm not sure it will work this time.
- throw310822 2y ago
  Notice that this benevolence and protection by the media is granted to Musk (and Trump) by their complete subservience to Israel's demands and wants. Trump just proposed ethnic cleansing the Gaza Strip and cleaning up the rubble with American money and work so it can be handed over to Israel in a nice shape.
  - defrost 2y ago
    I suspect a large part of the subtext is that considerable real estate holdings, hotels, casinos, apartments, etc. will mysteriously end up slightly off book on some TrumpCo. spinoff or another. It's the new Riviera after all . . .
    - throw310822 2y ago
      No, that's missing the point. What hotels, casinos and apartments were promised to the Biden administration to flood Israel with money and weapons to flatten the Gaza strip into rubble and kill and maim hundreds of thousands? It's not important what leverage Israel has used to make yet another US president do exactly what they want, contrary to any idea of justice, international law, basic humanity and common sense. The point is that Israel has that kind of leverage and nobody is able to resist it.
      - ashirusnw 2y ago
        [flagged]
        aa-jv 2y ago
        >There is clearly no specific leverage that one of the world's smallest ethnic groups has over the world's most powerful nation This is not so clear as you think. Israel is a nuclear-armed state that is not a participant in the non-proliferation treaties. Everything that the world fears of Iran, is already the case with Israel. Forward-deployed nukes are a hell of a blackmail.
        Hikikomori 2y ago
        How is the response to Oct 7 a defensive action? Using block sized bombs to take out one terrorist minutes after shooting a missile and has already left the scene when smaller munitions from drones can do the job is defensive? The military threat of Hama' s is a few RPGs that have barely injured anyone since the war started. How does Israel even know the ratio, they're not counting deaths. All Hamas wanted from the beginning to release hostages was for Israel to do the same. Something they've now done anyway so the entire war and all civilian suffering was unnecessary.
        edanm 2y ago
        > How is the response to Oct 7 a defensive action? Using block sized bombs to take out one terrorist minutes after shooting a missile and has already left the scene when smaller munitions from drones can do the job is defensive? The military threat of Hama' s is a few RPGs that have barely injured anyone since the war started. You're minimizing Hamas's rocket fire on Israel (which weren't RPGs) because it "barely injured anyone". And that part is true, but you're misunderstanding the costs here. In the weeks after October 7th, Israel was effectively shut down. There were sirens that forced the majority of Israelis into safe rooms 5, 6 times a day. Schools couldn't open, workplaces could barely function. And of course, the reason these rockets "didn't hurt anyone" is because of millions spent shooting them down. Now I don't know which of Israel's actions are "justified", if any. And I don't know what is "morally correct response" to a foreign territory ruled by a terrorist organization effectively shutting down your country. But I don't think you can simply dismiss this. It's a real problem. How many times would you be willing to run into a safe room with your terrified children, before you say "well we need to put a stop to this?". > All Hamas wanted from the beginning to release hostages was for Israel to do the same. All Hamas wanted was to invade Israel, shoot massive rounds of rockets at it for weeks, and for Israel to not respond because they took hostages. Had Israel not responded, they would've repeated this again and again. It's also very possible that Hezbollah, whom we now know had massive preparations underway for a similar invasion of Israel, would've carried out that plan and invaded Israel, leading to far more death for everyone. (btw, if your implication is that the Palestinian prisoners released today are "hostages" in the same sense as the Israeli hostages in Gaza, then I have to disagree with you.)
  - littlestymaar 2y ago
    As much as I hate the Nazis at the top of Israel's government and Western complicity in the ethnic cleansing occurring in Gaza (and more recently the West Bank too), I find your statement disturbing. Not everything is related to Israel, and there's no good reason to believe that this has anything to do with Israel. French media were pretty critical of Joe Bidden being too old for the job, despite Bidden giving Netanyahu all he wanted. Edit: OK given that other response of yours in this thread[1], it's quite clear now that you're confusing the fight for the freedom of Palestinians and the hatred of Jews. In addition to being disgusting, Antisemitic talks like these are actually counter productive: they help the Israelis as it gives them an excuse to victimize themselves once again. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42945588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42945588
    - throw310822 2y ago
      > Not everything is related to Israel, and there's no good reason to believe that this has anything to do with Israel Netanyahu himself tweeted in support of Elon Musk after his nazi-like salute. This is obviously about Israel. > it's quite clear now that you're confusing the fight for the freedom of Palestinians and the hatred of Jews I didn't mention Jews, you are the one confusing Jews and Israel. There are many Jews who are vehement opponents of Israel's nazi government and are denouncing it and its influence on American politics anywhere they can.
      - littlestymaar 2y ago
        You are claiming that Israel has “irresistible leverage” over American presidents, so you're gonna need a lot of clarification to who that this isn't an antisemitic dog whistle. What exactly do you think this leverage is?
        throw310822 2y ago
        No I don't owe any clarification to support what is obvious. At this point, the fact that Israel has almost complete control of US politics is the null hypothesis. It's those who deny it that need to provide very convincing, non-handwavy, alternative explanations of why the US is constantly doing Israel's bidding against international law, the international community and basic human rights, damaging its own standing and authority and going against its own geopolitical interest. And why the representatives of US people fly the Israeli flag outside and inside their offices, and why AIPAC boasts to manage to get elected 95% of those it supports, and why such a foreign interference is even allowed in the country, etc. etc.
morkalork 2y ago
I don't think it changes anything on a base level for how humans behave en mass. Unfortunately it looks like we will always be susceptible to populism and propaganda. At best what you're seeing is a temporary inoculation against illibralism.
ZeroGravitas 2y ago
In the UK, the political party (which is a actually a privately owned company) owned by the guy who drove the initial wave of Brexit is apparently topping the polls now. The only policy they talk about is getting rid of all the immigrants because that's what caused all the problems, not decades of right wing government culminating in Brexit. But underdeath that is the usual US-style Turbo capitalism stuff like destroying the NHS and handing it over to American corporations.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- pjc50 2y ago
  Reform is such a corporate op. It's so obviously astroturf .. but the media are also astroturfing it, because the hate for immigrants is universal.
- dgb23 2y ago
  Also not surprisingly immigration increased after Brexit. It has always been a wedge issue and a red herring for those in power.
- ben_w 2y ago
  > In the UK, the political party (which is a actually a privately owned company) owned by the guy who drove the initial wave of Brexit is apparently topping the polls now. Oh god. There I was thinking it couldn't get worse and hoping you'd made a mistake, but no, you're right, somehow it is.
- girvo 2y ago
  The right wing party will take power in Australia shortly too, for similar idiotic reasons.
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
  Damn, you're right :( Thanks for killing my attempts at holding on to some threads of optimism! (Being sarcastic, but really I'm just laugh/crying). Oh well, guess I should just stock up on more boxed wine...
CalRobert 2y ago
Unfortunately, one key difference is that Britain didn't have a leader who wanted to expand their territory. Europe is already weak, economically and militarily. I don't know how long our votes will matter when we have a belligerent and powerful neighbour.
- ok_dad 2y ago
  Ask Hawaii what happened when a bunch of businessmen wanted more profits and less government oversight! Back then it was Dole (the PERSON) and sugarcane companies, today it is auto manufacturers and probably access to the northern sea route that is rapidly becoming de-iced and relevant for shipping to bypass the Panama Canal. Canada better take this threat seriously and treat the USA, at the very least, like a neighbor who is shooting a rifle at a massive tank of propane. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1887_Constitution_of_the_Hawaiian_Kingdom#Rebellion_of_1887 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1887_Constitution_of_the_Hawai...
  - CalRobert 2y ago
    Oh I know, I think Elon wants nothing less than to be emperor of the world.
pjc50 2y ago
Wait until you have the Liz Truss budget. That's going to be economic chaos.

littlestymaar 2y ago

In France at least, Brexit made the idea of leaving the EU obsolete in political discourse, both on the left and far right. But at the same time French media just repeated the “it's a clumsy handwave from an autistic dude” narrative after Musk's Nazi salute so I'm not sure it will work this time.

throw310822 2y ago
Notice that this benevolence and protection by the media is granted to Musk (and Trump) by their complete subservience to Israel's demands and wants. Trump just proposed ethnic cleansing the Gaza Strip and cleaning up the rubble with American money and work so it can be handed over to Israel in a nice shape.
- defrost 2y ago
  I suspect a large part of the subtext is that considerable real estate holdings, hotels, casinos, apartments, etc. will mysteriously end up slightly off book on some TrumpCo. spinoff or another. It's the new Riviera after all . . .
  - throw310822 2y ago
    No, that's missing the point. What hotels, casinos and apartments were promised to the Biden administration to flood Israel with money and weapons to flatten the Gaza strip into rubble and kill and maim hundreds of thousands? It's not important what leverage Israel has used to make yet another US president do exactly what they want, contrary to any idea of justice, international law, basic humanity and common sense. The point is that Israel has that kind of leverage and nobody is able to resist it.
    - ashirusnw 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - aa-jv 2y ago
        >There is clearly no specific leverage that one of the world's smallest ethnic groups has over the world's most powerful nation This is not so clear as you think. Israel is a nuclear-armed state that is not a participant in the non-proliferation treaties. Everything that the world fears of Iran, is already the case with Israel. Forward-deployed nukes are a hell of a blackmail.
      - Hikikomori 2y ago
        How is the response to Oct 7 a defensive action? Using block sized bombs to take out one terrorist minutes after shooting a missile and has already left the scene when smaller munitions from drones can do the job is defensive? The military threat of Hama' s is a few RPGs that have barely injured anyone since the war started. How does Israel even know the ratio, they're not counting deaths. All Hamas wanted from the beginning to release hostages was for Israel to do the same. Something they've now done anyway so the entire war and all civilian suffering was unnecessary.
        edanm 2y ago
        > How is the response to Oct 7 a defensive action? Using block sized bombs to take out one terrorist minutes after shooting a missile and has already left the scene when smaller munitions from drones can do the job is defensive? The military threat of Hama' s is a few RPGs that have barely injured anyone since the war started. You're minimizing Hamas's rocket fire on Israel (which weren't RPGs) because it "barely injured anyone". And that part is true, but you're misunderstanding the costs here. In the weeks after October 7th, Israel was effectively shut down. There were sirens that forced the majority of Israelis into safe rooms 5, 6 times a day. Schools couldn't open, workplaces could barely function. And of course, the reason these rockets "didn't hurt anyone" is because of millions spent shooting them down. Now I don't know which of Israel's actions are "justified", if any. And I don't know what is "morally correct response" to a foreign territory ruled by a terrorist organization effectively shutting down your country. But I don't think you can simply dismiss this. It's a real problem. How many times would you be willing to run into a safe room with your terrified children, before you say "well we need to put a stop to this?". > All Hamas wanted from the beginning to release hostages was for Israel to do the same. All Hamas wanted was to invade Israel, shoot massive rounds of rockets at it for weeks, and for Israel to not respond because they took hostages. Had Israel not responded, they would've repeated this again and again. It's also very possible that Hezbollah, whom we now know had massive preparations underway for a similar invasion of Israel, would've carried out that plan and invaded Israel, leading to far more death for everyone. (btw, if your implication is that the Palestinian prisoners released today are "hostages" in the same sense as the Israeli hostages in Gaza, then I have to disagree with you.)
- littlestymaar 2y ago
  As much as I hate the Nazis at the top of Israel's government and Western complicity in the ethnic cleansing occurring in Gaza (and more recently the West Bank too), I find your statement disturbing. Not everything is related to Israel, and there's no good reason to believe that this has anything to do with Israel. French media were pretty critical of Joe Bidden being too old for the job, despite Bidden giving Netanyahu all he wanted. Edit: OK given that other response of yours in this thread[1], it's quite clear now that you're confusing the fight for the freedom of Palestinians and the hatred of Jews. In addition to being disgusting, Antisemitic talks like these are actually counter productive: they help the Israelis as it gives them an excuse to victimize themselves once again. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42945588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42945588
  - throw310822 2y ago
    > Not everything is related to Israel, and there's no good reason to believe that this has anything to do with Israel Netanyahu himself tweeted in support of Elon Musk after his nazi-like salute. This is obviously about Israel. > it's quite clear now that you're confusing the fight for the freedom of Palestinians and the hatred of Jews I didn't mention Jews, you are the one confusing Jews and Israel. There are many Jews who are vehement opponents of Israel's nazi government and are denouncing it and its influence on American politics anywhere they can.
    - littlestymaar 2y ago
      You are claiming that Israel has “irresistible leverage” over American presidents, so you're gonna need a lot of clarification to who that this isn't an antisemitic dog whistle. What exactly do you think this leverage is?
      - throw310822 2y ago
        No I don't owe any clarification to support what is obvious. At this point, the fact that Israel has almost complete control of US politics is the null hypothesis. It's those who deny it that need to provide very convincing, non-handwavy, alternative explanations of why the US is constantly doing Israel's bidding against international law, the international community and basic human rights, damaging its own standing and authority and going against its own geopolitical interest. And why the representatives of US people fly the Israeli flag outside and inside their offices, and why AIPAC boasts to manage to get elected 95% of those it supports, and why such a foreign interference is even allowed in the country, etc. etc.

morkalork 2y ago

I don't think it changes anything on a base level for how humans behave en mass. Unfortunately it looks like we will always be susceptible to populism and propaganda. At best what you're seeing is a temporary inoculation against illibralism.

ZeroGravitas 2y ago

In the UK, the political party (which is a actually a privately owned company) owned by the guy who drove the initial wave of Brexit is apparently topping the polls now. The only policy they talk about is getting rid of all the immigrants because that's what caused all the problems, not decades of right wing government culminating in Brexit. But underdeath that is the usual US-style Turbo capitalism stuff like destroying the NHS and handing it over to American corporations.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
pjc50 2y ago
Reform is such a corporate op. It's so obviously astroturf .. but the media are also astroturfing it, because the hate for immigrants is universal.
dgb23 2y ago
Also not surprisingly immigration increased after Brexit. It has always been a wedge issue and a red herring for those in power.
ben_w 2y ago
> In the UK, the political party (which is a actually a privately owned company) owned by the guy who drove the initial wave of Brexit is apparently topping the polls now. Oh god. There I was thinking it couldn't get worse and hoping you'd made a mistake, but no, you're right, somehow it is.
girvo 2y ago
The right wing party will take power in Australia shortly too, for similar idiotic reasons.
hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
Damn, you're right :( Thanks for killing my attempts at holding on to some threads of optimism! (Being sarcastic, but really I'm just laugh/crying). Oh well, guess I should just stock up on more boxed wine...

CalRobert 2y ago

Unfortunately, one key difference is that Britain didn't have a leader who wanted to expand their territory. Europe is already weak, economically and militarily. I don't know how long our votes will matter when we have a belligerent and powerful neighbour.

ok_dad 2y ago
Ask Hawaii what happened when a bunch of businessmen wanted more profits and less government oversight! Back then it was Dole (the PERSON) and sugarcane companies, today it is auto manufacturers and probably access to the northern sea route that is rapidly becoming de-iced and relevant for shipping to bypass the Panama Canal. Canada better take this threat seriously and treat the USA, at the very least, like a neighbor who is shooting a rifle at a massive tank of propane. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1887_Constitution_of_the_Hawaiian_Kingdom#Rebellion_of_1887 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1887_Constitution_of_the_Hawai...
- CalRobert 2y ago
  Oh I know, I think Elon wants nothing less than to be emperor of the world.

pjc50 2y ago

Wait until you have the Liz Truss budget. That's going to be economic chaos.