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How does fentanyl get into the US?
- jf22 2y agoIt's amazing the US started a trade war over 74,000 deaths from Fentanyl when heart disease causes 10x more deaths.
- bigdict 2y agoHave you seen the RFK confirmation hearing?
- knowaveragejoe 2y agoIt was never about a perceived moral crusade against fentanyl and addiction at large. It's only ever been about throwing our weight around to disrupt alliances and institutions with the goal of destroying American soft power.
- wavefunction 2y agoit's just political theater mostly to provide the appearance of "doing something" while also providing a new excuse for why high prices are still high and continue to rise certain political figures and their supporters just need a story to tell, it doesn't have to be particularly accurate or even coherent for their purposes
- moate 2y agoAhh yes, that was definitely the core reason and not just something sensational to put out as the cause. We definitely care about drug deaths in this country wink. Feels like the main reasons you institute tariffs, historically, is to 1- control the production/flow of goods and 2- to raise money for other endeavors. As tariffs are a much more difficult form of taxation for a payer to track (they're not getting a bill the way they do on income/real estate taxes, it's being hidden in the cost of the good) they're also a great way to obfuscate "raising taxes" if you're running on a platform of, say "I'm going to institute the largest tax break in American history".
- robertlagrant 2y agoPeople voted for fewer drug deaths, and it looks as though the looming tariffs have stirred a drug-death-preventing response, which has paused the tariffs[0]. It seems as though people are getting what they voted for so far? [0] https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-discuss-tariffs-canadian-mexican-leaders-mexico-readies/story?id=118390520 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-discuss-tariffs-canadi...
- leptons 2y ago> As tariffs are a much more difficult form of taxation for a payer to track (they're not getting a bill the way they do on income/real estate taxes, it's being hidden in the cost of the good) Oh no, it's very easy. When I sell my product, I will be including the exact amount the buyer is paying above what is normal due to tariffs. The tariffs are very well expressed on the purchase price of the parts that go into the product, so it's very easy for me to add up the tariffs and tell the buyer how much more trump is demanding they pay for the product.
- mvdtnz 2y agoYou may not care about drug deaths, but many people do.
- sashank_1509 2y agoA bad comparison. Fentanyl deaths are fully avoidable, heart diseases have existed forever.
- BudaDude 2y agoThey are also for the most part avoidable
- lnxg33k1 2y agoIf you start to ban cigarettes, mcdonalds and similar, also many heart diseases can be avoided
- dboreham 2y ago[flagged]
- slothtrop 2y agoTobacco consumption has plummeted in the West and continues to. If anything it shows that sin taxes and messaging work. A ban leads to a black market and would be a gross overstep. Alcohol consumption has also fallen. For one we could stop subsidizing suspect products (e.g. HFCS) and create other incentives.
- bluGill 2y agoThere are things we can do that people are not doing. However plenty of people who do eat well and exercise die of heart diseases and we don't know how to stop that.
- culi 2y agoPoint taken, but archeologists and anthropologists have known for a while now that cardiovascular disease is virtually absent in non-industrial societies. And we also know there's a ton more that could be done to lessen how common heart disease is
- slothtrop 2y ago
- coderc 2y ago74,000 is the approximate number for just 2023. The number was even higher in 2022. It's not "just" 74,000 deaths.
- nomel 2y ago~180k from 2015-2022 [1]. If the fraction of fentanyl is similar for 2023 and 2024 [2], then the number would be over 300k (I don't see direct numbers for 2023 or 2024). [1] https://usafacts.org/articles/are-fentanyl-overdose-deaths-rising-in-the-us/ https://usafacts.org/articles/are-fentanyl-overdose-deaths-r... [2] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/overdose-deaths-are-finally-starting-to-decline-heres-why/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/overdose-deaths-a...
- Der_Einzige 2y agoBut that war (against metabolic syndrome) is already won because of Ozempic/Wegovy/Zepbound. Give it 20 years.
- ge96 2y agoIt seems bad to fix a problem that can be addressed by self control. It's like making a bulky un-aerodynamic car go farther by adding a bigger engine/more fuel. But I understand too when you're 100s of lbs overweight it can seem impossible to change. I work out myself but my motivation is to get laid vs. actually embracing health I still binge eat for fun. I think Ozempic doesn't have crazy side effects other than the face? Could be wrong Edit: Regarding the topic at hand, I either don't drink or binge drink so I'm no saint same with driving fast.
- Izikiel43 2y agoWhy are you assuming it can always be fixed by self control? Some people have complete bad standards for eating compared to a regular person, both in quantity and quality. The drugs help deal only with the quantity.
- ge96 2y agoYeah different approaches to a problem, drugs, physical changes (surgery to stomach size), maybe something like CBT. When I get bored I binge eat so I get it.
- bhaney 2y ago> It seems bad to fix a problem that can be addressed by self control. This argument applies similarly to the fentanyl crisis, since people could simply have the self control to not take fentanyl recreationally. Do you have a similar belief that the government shouldn't be trying to stop the mass import of fentanyl and other harmful drugs?
- ge96 2y agoSure if the drugs aren't there to begin with can't take em. But also depends where you are/who you associate with which again if you're in the bad areas probably exposed more to drugs/less hope of getting out having a better life. I guess I'm fortunate I've only ever been exposed to/try the weaker stuff.
- bhaney 2y agoIf we could put tariffs on heart disease we would
- gberger 2y agoWe can, though? A sugar tax.
- from-nibly 2y agoWe don't profit from fentanyl deaths.
- hammock 2y agoWe grow that at home. (Corn, soy and sugar) In fact the tariffs will help fund the farm bills.
- culi 2y agoUS agriculture is already arguably the most heavily subsidized in the world
- readthenotes1 2y agoWhy don't we ban automobiles since they cause 41,000 deaths per year?
- bluGill 2y agoA lot more people use automobiles. Hard drugs are used, but very few people use them, many have never tried them.
- michaelt 2y agoIf you think that's a surprise, consider the fact the US responded to 3000 deaths on September 11th with a 20 year, multi-trillion-dollar pair of wars that killed far more than 3000 people. It turns out there are a lot of concerns beyond than the number of bodies.
- jollyllama 2y agoWhat's the YLL stats on fent vs heart disease?
- scythe 2y agoGenerally we are more concerned when people die at 40 than at 80. The latter is considered "normal". There are a few ways that the epidemiologists try to quantify this notion — DALYs or QALYs. Fentanyl takes people young. And it's new. Those characteristics make it a serious concern.
- invalidOrTaken 2y agowait til you hear what they did in 2001!
- polotics 2y agoOne usually measures years of life-expectancy lost. Your heart attacks victims may well be 80 year old with 5 average years left, you need more than ten of those to account from one 20 year old incautious party girl...
- fngjdflmdflg 2y agoLast I looked at this (in a different context, a few years ago,) I read that most heart disease deaths are essentially natural deaths. Someone has to die from something and heart disease is one of those things. (Eating worse could perhaps be making people die earlier by one or two years on average.) Some data (not exactly the same I found last time, but seems to still be accurate as I recalled it): >About 82% of people who die of coronary heart disease are 65 or older[0] See also the CDC's list of deaths by cause by age group: For 65 years and over, Diseases of heart is ranked 1st (531,583 deaths in 2019). For 45–64 years, it is 1st in 1980 and second in 2019 (111,975). For 25–44 years it is 4th (13,994) and 15–24 years it is 5th (1,223 and 872 total deaths for 1980 and 2019 respectively).[1] I'm also pretty sure many (most?) drug overdoses manifest as cardiac arrest and are probably included in "Diseases of the heart:" >Drug overdose is a leading cause of cardiac arrest and is currently the second leading cause of overall injury-related fatality in the United States.[2] [0] https://memorialhermann.org/services/specialties/heart-and-vascular/healthy-living/education/heart-disease-and-age https://memorialhermann.org/services/specialties/heart-and-v... [1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/2020-2021/LCODAge.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/2020-2021/LCODAge.pdf [2] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3399948/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3399948/
- inglor_cz 2y agoIf victims of Fentanyl die much younger than victims of heart disease, the total # of lost years of life can be of the same order. I remember reading that elimination of heart disease would increase life expectancy by some 5,5 years. Not nothing, but it indicates that most people die of heart disease at a relatively old age, when something else would kill them quite soon. OTOH if a Fentanyl victim loses 40 or 50 years of potential life, that is a major loss for society as a whole. Kids may not be born etc.
- dragonwriter 2y ago> If victims of Fentanyl die much younger than victims of heart disease, the total # of lost years of life can be of the same order. It can be even without that if you are looking at quality-adjusted life years and not just raw life years.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- binary132 2y agoIf killdrones were murdering 74,000 random Americans a year during their morning commute, you’d better believe people would be prioritizing it over heart failure.
- blastonico 2y ago[flagged]
- dgfitz 2y agoHe is doing what he said he would do, hard to argue with that. Hard to say at the moment if anything he is doing is "great" or not. I choose to observe instead of emoting about it. Half the world is convinced the sky is falling, and half are cheering. I'm the person in the middle of the (probably) not-overlapping venn diagram.
- ge96 2y agoProject 2025 is crazy when you read off the items
- ks2048 2y agoI don't think it's hard to argue with "He is doing what he said he would do". He said on day one he'd lower grocery prices. He said he had nothing to do with Project 2025 and on day one he signed a stack of executive ordered hand written by the Heritage Foundation. etc.
- _DeadFred_ 2y agoDon't forget he said the Ukraine was would already be over as well. MAGA has moved the goalpost so far from 'get away from being warmongers on day one' to 'Annex Canada, annex Greenland, go to war with Panama, send troops to take out the Cartels'. Truly 1984 stuff going on.
- dgfitz 2y agoI must be the only dumbass that sees billionaires running the world and compare things to atlas shrugged instead of 1984. Hell, Brave New World fits better than 1984.
- dgfitz 2y agoAnd yet Guantanamo Bay is still open. Yeah, he hasn’t done everything he claimed, and I imagine he won’t, most politicians don’t. He was very clear about all the things he has done so far, and this is hard to argue. Making a bad-faith argument about one specific point doesn’t negate the argument.
- spiderfarmer 2y agoImposing tariffs, further impoverishing the poor, in order to not show compassion for your own citizens? That doesn’t just sound backwards, it just is. The fentanyl crisis is just being used as an excuse to impose the tariffs. By now it’s well known that Trump desperately wants to proof his professor wrong and if the world has to burn, so be it.
- tivert 2y ago> By now it’s well known that Trump desperately wants to proof his professor wrong By now it it's well known that globalization is for a fantasy world that doesn't exist, and people should stop listening so much to economics professors. Trade barriers need to go up to re-orient things. Unfortunately, Trump is unlikely to do it competently.
- spiderfarmer 2y agoYou guys tried everything but the things other countries that do well are doing. But hey, let’s try to stop globalization as a single country.
- janalsncm 2y agoA 10% tariff on China won’t stop globalization. Even an 100% tariff wouldn’t. American goods aren’t 10% more expensive, a lot of them are 10x more expensive. Look for American made kitchen knives. You will be lucky to spend less than $2k on a block of Made in USA knives. Meanwhile you can get a pretty good set made in China for under $200. If you wanted American companies to compete, you would need a 10x tariff to make that $200 knife set cost $2000.
- binary132 2y agoit’s almost as though the cost-of-living and cost-of-making differential is something that’s bad for Americans. Well, at least we got some cheap knives or whatever.
- 2y ago
- henvic 2y agoEnding the war on drugs would be a wise choice. Treat drug addicts as people with a health issue instead of making the entire society pay for it due to the fact that the druggies pay the cartels to smuggle drugs to them and all the consequences of the drug wars... Tariffs are just taxes that will destroy the economy.
- pton_xd 2y agoPortland tried that in 2020 by decriminalizing drug possession. They reversed course and recently passed a law to recriminalize possession. I think its the right move. Downtown turned into a very unpleasant place.
- culi 2y agoIt wasn't Portland. Voters in Oregon as a whole passed Measure 110 in 2020 that replaced criminal penalties for possession of small amounts of drugs with $100 fines. Then in April of 2024 House Bill 4002 made possession once again a misdemeanor but kept most of the other provisions of Measure 110 and still focuses on "deflecting" people who possess out of the criminal justice system and into treatment programs. So Measure 110 is still mostly in effect. They just made it so you do in fact have something on your record if you're caught with possession.
- throw0101a 2y ago> It wasn't Portland. Voters in Oregon as a whole passed Measure 110 in 2020 that replaced criminal penalties for possession of small amounts of drugs with $100 fines. Unless you're forced to do something to deal with the addiction then there's probably not much point for this kind of thing: > Starting September 1, 2024, possession of hard drugs became classified as a criminal misdemeanor outside of the regular A-E categorization system, carrying a sentence of up to 6 months of jail, which may be waived if the convictee enters into mandatory drug treatment.[8][9] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Oregon_Ballot_Measure_110 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Oregon_Ballot_Measure_110 Of course one needs to keep at it, otherwise things fall apart: > Funding ebbed still more recently due to new national budget pressures, which undercut efforts encouraging addicts into rehabilitation programs. The results of “disinvestment” and “a freezing in [their] response” led Goulão to state that “what we have today no longer serves as an example to anyone.” > Speaking more quantitatively, drug users in treatment declined from 1,150 to 352 (from 2015 to 2021) as funding dropped in 2012 from $82.7 million to $17.4 million. Budget pressures and the apparent desire to cut immediate program costs of drug addiction (distinct from the total societal cost of drug addiction) led to program decentralization and the use of NGOs. Anecdotal evidence of a fragmenting, even breaking, system abounds: Demoralized police no longer cite addicts to get them into treatment and at least some NGOs view the effort as less about treatment and more about framing lifetime drug use as a right. * https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/is-portugals-drug-decriminalization-a-failure-or-success-the-answer-isnt-so-simple/ https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/is-portugals-dru... The other question is does the US have the resources (that people can afford) to have folks go to treatment.
- twic 2y ago> Despite this, the trade in other chemicals involved in the manufacturing of fentanyl - some of which can have legitimate purposes - remain uncontrolled, as those involved in the trade find new ways to evade the law. What are these chemicals, and what are their other uses? Which of them don't have any other uses?
- Beijinger 2y agoPhenethyl bromide5 Propionyl chloride4 4-Anilino-N-phenethylpiperidine (4-ANPP)2 N-phenethyl-4-piperidone (NPP)2 Propionic anhydride2 Sodium borohydride1
- bdcravens 2y agoOne thing this article doesn't cover is WHO is doing the trafficking, and in most cases, it's Americans. https://www.ussc.gov/research/quick-facts/fentanyl-trafficking https://www.ussc.gov/research/quick-facts/fentanyl-trafficki... Most seizures happen at checkpoints or vehicle searches. https://www.cato.org/blog/fentanyl-smuggled-us-citizens-us-citizens-not-asylum-seekers https://www.cato.org/blog/fentanyl-smuggled-us-citizens-us-c...
- coliveira 2y agoAlso who is coordinating this trafficking in the US? They make it believe that there is only the border smuggling and the retail sale problem. From the US point of view, NOBODY is handling and managing the drug business in US soil.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 2y agoIf you want to stop the flow of hyperpotent opioids like fentanyl and nitazenes, legalise opium and heroin. As drugs, the only advantage of these compounds is that their potency makes them easier and cheaper to smuggle. I've asked a lot of opioid addicts about this and not one of them has described an all-things-equal preference for these drugs. I'm sure some people do exist, but they're likely a very small minority. Most people don't even know what they're using, they just take whatever's available to get a fix. This is a completely artificial problem, created by the war on drugs. Just like the waves of PMMA deaths in europe caused by safrole seizures. Western nations have no one to blame for this but themselves.
- be_erik 2y agoThis rings true with my experiences. The people who I've known to become addicted usually started with something prescribed and then graduated to heroin. When heroin became harder to find, smuggle in, or too expensive, fentanyl happily stepped up to meet demand. Addicts literally carry around fent testing kits so they can _avoid_ this synthetic opioid.
- flustercan 2y ago>Addicts literally carry around fent testing kits so they can _avoid_ this synthetic opioid. Its my understanding that heroin and street pharmaceuticals aren't really around anymore. Its ALL fentanyl now and everyone knows it.
- dylan604 2y ago> Addicts literally carry around fent testing kits so they can _avoid_ this synthetic opioid. Choosy addicts choose...is something I never thought I'd read. I'd suggest they weren't addicting right if they are choosy. When you can find your fix of choice, you just fix with what's available. If your comment were accurate, fent sales would plummet and the problem would fix itself. This is clearly not the case.
- snailmailstare 2y ago
- aylmao 2y ago> Despite this, the trade in other chemicals involved in the manufacturing of fentanyl - some of which can have legitimate purposes - remain uncontrolled, as those involved in the trade find new ways to evade the law. From a purely economic perspective, it just sounds like local production will replace foreign imports if the US does manage to stop fentanyl from entering from abroad.
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 2y agoBy citing seizure numbers and mentioning nothing else about each respective border, this article and other news reports I am seeing seem to imply or suggest that that seizures are a direct representation of how much contraband is crossing a border. That's possible. It's also possible that seizures are a representation, at least in part, of something else. For example, the success of border authorities in detecting and confiscating contraband. Authorities on one border might be more more successful than authorities on another border. The frequency and amounts of seizures might not be indicative of the total amount of contraband that is crossing a particular border undetected. The seizure rate might be related to geographical or other characteristics of the border, for example.
- aylmao 2y agoI agree. I'd expand this by noting this doesn't only apply to borders, but the whole territory too. The article does note: > [...] the trade in other chemicals involved in the manufacturing of fentanyl - some of which can have legitimate purposes - remain uncontrolled, as those involved in the trade find new ways to evade the law. One has to imagine there's local manufacturing of fentanyl too, and one has to wonder the magnitude of it.
- badosu 2y agoIt's revealing how many sub designs they found on south american jungles, but few actually found in traffic or on the targets coast.
- Jerrrry 2y ago[dead]
- janalsncm 2y agoIt is possible the data is biased by enforcement ability. However, the difference is huge. Last year only 0.2% of fentanyl was seized at the northern border and 98% at the southern border.
- 2y ago
- coliveira 2y agoDrug trafficking has little to do with the border issue, since you cannot really do anything about it when you have thousands of miles of border to secure. The issue here is how much corruption exists in the US and how little it does against the really big criminals who control traffic. The justice system concentrates only on putting small vendors behind bars (usually black people), but they're not the ones making real profits. I guarantee you don't know any big drug traffickers operating inside the US that were sent to jail. When you hear about big bosses it is always some guy outside the US, but the ones operating inside the country are all protected in one way or another. They're all laughing and buying mansions all over the country. This corruption is what the US should be concentrating on if they want to stop drug trafficking.
- Retric 2y agoThousands of miles of border isn’t actually the issue here. How many people are crossing the Korean DMZ each year without South Korea noticing? Adjusted for population size and it’s roughly half the length of the US/Mexico land border and it’s designed for military incursion via tanks not just people in a pickup truck. Similarly the amount of money spent on inspecting imports is well under 1% of the total value of said imports. It’s possible to inspect literally every package crossing the border, we just don’t want to.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 2y agoI do not think it makes sense to scale national borders based on population size. It is what it is, you can choose to invest resources on the entire length, but there is no mathematical averaging out. For anyone else that was curious, the Korean DMZ is 150 miles long. US Mexico border is 1950.
- Retric 2y ago50 million people each paying 100$ in taxes can’t get as much done as 350 million people handing over 100$. On the other hand suggesting there’s suddenly massive issues with coordination because a country is 7x the size just doesn’t make a lot of sense. PS: 160 mi, but that should be obvious from my comment and the relevant population sizes.
- motohagiography 2y agoit makes more sense when you look at the LD-50 of fentanyl vs. any other synthetic substance, and it's hard to see it as anything other than a WMD. it's a security issue and municipalities and public health exploit it to "manage" for increased bureaucracy and funding. whenever they want more federal or state money, they turn the crisis tap on or off. public agencies all benefit from rising poverty, and where they can't create it with lax enforcement, they import it. stopping the flow of drugs cuts off a huge source of bureaucratic crisis leverage, and local political corruption funding, that both poison the entire system of institutions. it's difficult to find a coherent moral case against a radical crackdown on fentanyl for those reasons.
- binary132 2y ago“They downvoted him because he told them the truth.”
- abimbostrawman 2y ago[dead]
- janalsncm 2y agoAccording to CBP, last year there were only 43 pounds of fentanyl seized on the northern border. The problem is almost entirely a Southern border problem. So it seems crazy to punish Canada. Also India is responsible for many precursors but are not named.
- refurb 2y ago“Only 43 pounds” or 9.7M fatal doses.
- janalsncm 2y agoYes, and 4.8 billion fatal doses were intercepted at the US-Mexico border. Fentanyl is potent.
- rstuart4133 2y agoNow try adjusting for population. Here are the figures from the story: > In the first 10 months of 2024, the Canadian border service reported seizing 10.8lb (4.9kg) of fentanyl entering from the US, while US Border Patrol intercepted 32.1lb (14.6kg) of fentanyl coming from Canada. So the US is exporting 242 doses per 1000 Canadians to Canada. Canada is exporting 84 does per 1000 Americans to the US.
- janalsncm 2y agoThe point is that it is almost entirely manufactured in Mexico using Chinese and Indian precursor chemicals. The amount crossing the US-Canada border is negligible by comparison.
- downut 2y ago133 comments and the Sackler family has yet to be mentioned. I don't think the comments here are well informed.
- downut 2y ago145 comments and still no mention of the Sackler family, except in my own comment. 2 down votes also, LOL! What are you afraid of people! Look into the history of fentanyl. Huge hint for all you search challenged: Sackler family on wikipedia. I've got a bit of karma to spend, and I think I'll double down and spend it to zero for the next year, dribbling a bit of facts out, to the consternation of the conspiracy bots now obvs infesting this now hell-site by a large majority. Paul Graham, is this what you meant to create, 25 years ago? (PG counts money.... YES!) (Main takeaway: big money protects big money first) Edit: fuck no, I'm not going to provide a courtesy link to Wikipedia. If you can't be bothered to use the ah user interface, you're too lazy to respond to.
- thatswrong0 2y agoYou just walked in to a room, called everyone stupid, and then surprised Pikachu faced about the fact that everyone is looking at you funny now. Maybeee reconsider your motivations and/or your social tact my dude. Cause right now you just look like someone trying to feel smarter than others.
- Guid_NewGuid 2y agoThere's nuance to these numbers since interception will be an artifact of where people are looking but 95% of intercepted fentanyl was from US citizens crossing the border.[0] Funnily enough the Republicans seemed content to sit on their hands and play politics with this so called crisis until the media broke the story.[also 0] [0]: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/border-fentanyl-scanners-sat-idle-lack-funding-rcna151374 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/border-fe...
- zoklet-enjoyer 2y agoI've been saying this since 2011. China is waging a chemical war against the United States.
- ashoeafoot 2y agoWhy is the us the only place with huge demand ?