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> Luckily, I got the chance to learn how to program computers thanks to a training program that the company ran. The material was easy for me to grasp and I cam

> Luckily, I got the chance to learn how to program computers thanks to a training program that the company ran. The material was easy for me to grasp and I came away from that training feeling like I could program just about anything. After I was done with that training, I did a lot of odds and ends. I worry such entry-level positions and on-the-job training will start to disappear (if they haven't already.)

msephton 2y ago
I wonder if Sony still runs such things...
- ramchip 2y ago
  I think so, it's common for large businesses in Japan to rotate employees through departments at the beginning of their career, and to hire people for engineering with a degree in another field. In the English language FAQ for instance: https://www.sony.com/en/SonyInfo/Careers/japan/en/faq/major.html#m01 https://www.sony.com/en/SonyInfo/Careers/japan/en/faq/major.... > Can I still apply even if my major and job course are not related? > Please do! Around 40% of our new recruits work in positions that are different from their university majors. Instead of narrowing your options by focusing on your major, please expand your thoughts and ideas to what you want to do at Sony. Pick job courses that excite you and motivate you to take on a challenge. In the Japanese website they mention that 300 engineers act as in-house instructors.
lukevp 2y ago
I think we’re a couple years out max from Peak Developer and a lot of the growth / entry level roles will start getting taken over by the experienced devs who can adapt to coordinating a set of AI agents to do the actual coding and testing and DevOps more efficiently, and it’s all downhill from there. So I don’t see an entry level, mess around directly writing code job, to exist in abundance in say 10 years.
- suhastech 2y ago
  I can see that happening. However, I also believe that college or some form of structured education will step in to bridge the gap. Historically, education has played a role in transitioning people from knowing little to becoming workforce ready. With AI changing the landscape, the gap will undoubtedly be wider, but education systems may evolve to accommodate that shift. By the looks of it, AI could itself fill that gap.
  - bilegeek 2y ago
    That's the exact problem though. Companies have been outsourcing training to colleges for decades now, further and further reducing available career paths as mentioned and causing degree inflation, higher education costs for everybody, etc. It's also unlikely to change because it's just one more symptom of how companies are run these days, and that mindset has societal-scale momentum now.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      Why wouldn’t they? Despite what idealists think that people should go to college to “expand their minds and be better citizens of the world”, most people can’t afford to spend tens of thousands of dollars and not expect to be ready for careers.
      - bilegeek 2y ago
        I didn't intend to sound crunchy like that. College for practical means has long been the norm in the US vs. elsewhere, going back to agricultural schools in the 18th and 19th centuries. There is nothing wrong with that; what is NOT good is the whole-sale replacement of job training to colleges, as it cannot properly encompass every eccentricity of a particular job, leading to the problems mentioned before. College is about getting the knowledge to perform your field, not the knowledge of every particular procedure one could possibly expect to see. The modern emphasis on internships softens the blow somewhat, but it's a half-hearted replacement and is easily abused in many fields.
- deleted 2y ago
dclowd9901 2y ago
This upsets me too. I always loved hiring inquisitive, energetic juniors who didn't know shit about software engineering but wanted to learn everything about it. I haven't been allowed to hire a junior in close to a decade.
- jamesy0ung 2y ago
  As a Computer Science student, what should I be focusing on in order to get a job in this market?
  - dfedbeef 2y ago
    Edit: paid internships
    - burgos_thrw 2y ago
      This. I mentored five interns across two companies (an faang and a pre IPO) all of them are on the great path and in great companies now. They didn’t know much but they had an appetite that you don’t see often in the people with 10+ years of experience.
  - _blk 2y ago
    Actual projects to showcase. Open source/Github helps but is not a strict must.
  - ahartmetz 2y ago
    IMO: Writing, extending and fixing bugs in nontrivial programs, collaborating with others, reading a lot of documentation of the things you use, discussing programming with other interested people. The scientific part is usually not at the fore in practice and your courses will be plenty for that. Working on some large FOSS project will teach you most of the skills, though maybe don't specialize too much. Some people seem to mostly fix bugs, others design and half-finish stuff before switching to something else, etc. It's best to know the full lifecycle in order to have relevant experience for all situations.
  - 2y ago
Sakos 2y ago
I haven't seen any entry level positions or on the job training at any company I've worked at. I've always been jealous of these training programs that Japanese game companies had, where you'd be working alongside future and contemporary greats.
memorydial 2y ago
If companies don’t invest in juniors because they 'might leave,' they’ll just end up with a team of burned-out seniors who eventually leave anyway.
- xandrius 2y ago
  It's not necessary true. Not hiring juniors doesn't imply burning out the employees.
- gosub100 2y ago
  thats exactly what they want, then they put on their sad face and tell congress "we just can't find anybody!" and voila, in rolls the H1B drones who work at 25% off.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
alt227 2y ago
In the UK this is generally being replaced by schools. Kids start basics of logic early in primary school, and by their teens they are attending lessons in how to build websites with HTML and CSS. In 10 years everybody in the country will have this basic grounding in coding and so workplaces will not need to provide it at all.

msephton 2y ago

I wonder if Sony still runs such things...

ramchip 2y ago
I think so, it's common for large businesses in Japan to rotate employees through departments at the beginning of their career, and to hire people for engineering with a degree in another field. In the English language FAQ for instance: https://www.sony.com/en/SonyInfo/Careers/japan/en/faq/major.html#m01 https://www.sony.com/en/SonyInfo/Careers/japan/en/faq/major.... > Can I still apply even if my major and job course are not related? > Please do! Around 40% of our new recruits work in positions that are different from their university majors. Instead of narrowing your options by focusing on your major, please expand your thoughts and ideas to what you want to do at Sony. Pick job courses that excite you and motivate you to take on a challenge. In the Japanese website they mention that 300 engineers act as in-house instructors.

lukevp 2y ago

I think we’re a couple years out max from Peak Developer and a lot of the growth / entry level roles will start getting taken over by the experienced devs who can adapt to coordinating a set of AI agents to do the actual coding and testing and DevOps more efficiently, and it’s all downhill from there. So I don’t see an entry level, mess around directly writing code job, to exist in abundance in say 10 years.

suhastech 2y ago
I can see that happening. However, I also believe that college or some form of structured education will step in to bridge the gap. Historically, education has played a role in transitioning people from knowing little to becoming workforce ready. With AI changing the landscape, the gap will undoubtedly be wider, but education systems may evolve to accommodate that shift. By the looks of it, AI could itself fill that gap.
- bilegeek 2y ago
  That's the exact problem though. Companies have been outsourcing training to colleges for decades now, further and further reducing available career paths as mentioned and causing degree inflation, higher education costs for everybody, etc. It's also unlikely to change because it's just one more symptom of how companies are run these days, and that mindset has societal-scale momentum now.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    Why wouldn’t they? Despite what idealists think that people should go to college to “expand their minds and be better citizens of the world”, most people can’t afford to spend tens of thousands of dollars and not expect to be ready for careers.
    - bilegeek 2y ago
      I didn't intend to sound crunchy like that. College for practical means has long been the norm in the US vs. elsewhere, going back to agricultural schools in the 18th and 19th centuries. There is nothing wrong with that; what is NOT good is the whole-sale replacement of job training to colleges, as it cannot properly encompass every eccentricity of a particular job, leading to the problems mentioned before. College is about getting the knowledge to perform your field, not the knowledge of every particular procedure one could possibly expect to see. The modern emphasis on internships softens the blow somewhat, but it's a half-hearted replacement and is easily abused in many fields.
deleted 2y ago

dclowd9901 2y ago

This upsets me too. I always loved hiring inquisitive, energetic juniors who didn't know shit about software engineering but wanted to learn everything about it. I haven't been allowed to hire a junior in close to a decade.

jamesy0ung 2y ago
As a Computer Science student, what should I be focusing on in order to get a job in this market?
- dfedbeef 2y ago
  Edit: paid internships
  - burgos_thrw 2y ago
    This. I mentored five interns across two companies (an faang and a pre IPO) all of them are on the great path and in great companies now. They didn’t know much but they had an appetite that you don’t see often in the people with 10+ years of experience.
- _blk 2y ago
  Actual projects to showcase. Open source/Github helps but is not a strict must.
- ahartmetz 2y ago
  IMO: Writing, extending and fixing bugs in nontrivial programs, collaborating with others, reading a lot of documentation of the things you use, discussing programming with other interested people. The scientific part is usually not at the fore in practice and your courses will be plenty for that. Working on some large FOSS project will teach you most of the skills, though maybe don't specialize too much. Some people seem to mostly fix bugs, others design and half-finish stuff before switching to something else, etc. It's best to know the full lifecycle in order to have relevant experience for all situations.
- 2y ago

Sakos 2y ago

I haven't seen any entry level positions or on the job training at any company I've worked at. I've always been jealous of these training programs that Japanese game companies had, where you'd be working alongside future and contemporary greats.

memorydial 2y ago

If companies don’t invest in juniors because they 'might leave,' they’ll just end up with a team of burned-out seniors who eventually leave anyway.

xandrius 2y ago
It's not necessary true. Not hiring juniors doesn't imply burning out the employees.
gosub100 2y ago
thats exactly what they want, then they put on their sad face and tell congress "we just can't find anybody!" and voila, in rolls the H1B drones who work at 25% off.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

alt227 2y ago

In the UK this is generally being replaced by schools. Kids start basics of logic early in primary school, and by their teens they are attending lessons in how to build websites with HTML and CSS. In 10 years everybody in the country will have this basic grounding in coding and so workplaces will not need to provide it at all.