3 ms·

Is this even legal? Doesn't the state have some obligation to care for their citizens even if they are felons?

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Doesn't the state have some obligation to care for their citizens even if they are felons? According to whom? A sovereign state has, by definition, no obligations to anything but itself.
- the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
  * for as long as it doesn’t sign international treaties.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > as long as it doesn’t sign international treaties Treaties are legally binding inasmuch as the signatories' legal systems treat them as such. The legal enforcement is entirely internal. Countries are constantly geting into fights over who isn't following such and such treaty properly. (Like, look at North America right now. Or China in respect of UNCLOS.)
    - hnbad 2y ago
      Case in point: the US has literally threatened to invade The Hague if any US citizens are ever arrested and put on trial there. Even if the US were a signatory, nobody involved would dare risking it.
johnnyanmac 2y ago
> Eighth Amendment >Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. exporting american citizens would very much fall under "cruel and unusual". There's been challenges on this that essentially say "you can be cruel OR unusual, but not both". I'd love to see how they justify a police state foreign prison doesn't qualify as "cruel".
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > exporting american citizens would very much fall under "cruel and unusual" How? I'm not loving this idea, but it's difficult to see why it's cruel or unusual at face value.
  - Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 2y ago
    One reason is that it makes it impractical for any relatives to visit.
- theossuary 2y ago
  According to the now conservative majority on the Supreme Court, there is no such thing as cruel and unusual punishment once your in jail. SCOTUS and the eighth amendment aren't going to save us here, not anymore. https://www.nybooks.com/online/2024/06/18/the-hollowing-of-the-eighth-amendment/ https://www.nybooks.com/online/2024/06/18/the-hollowing-of-t... - https://archive.is/ZkWGP https://archive.is/ZkWGP
- hnbad 2y ago
  The US has the death penalty, all implementations of which have been demonstrated to qualify as cruel by most people's definitions (e.g. the chemical method is not in any way based on science but rather pumping the victim full of overdoses of chemicals known to kill them, contrary to popular misconceptions it's not like being put down by a vet but more like suffocating until your brain shuts off). Given the state of the US prison industrial complex, I also wouldn't be surprised if the prisons El Salvador would provide for US citizens are at least up to par during the likely contractually required inspections. They wouldn't need to be as good as the average US prison, they would only need to be no worse than the worst US prison.
NewJazz 2y ago
The concept of a "responsibility to protect" is contentious in international law/relations. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect

> Doesn't the state have some obligation to care for their citizens even if they are felons? According to whom? A sovereign state has, by definition, no obligations to anything but itself.

the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
* for as long as it doesn’t sign international treaties.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > as long as it doesn’t sign international treaties Treaties are legally binding inasmuch as the signatories' legal systems treat them as such. The legal enforcement is entirely internal. Countries are constantly geting into fights over who isn't following such and such treaty properly. (Like, look at North America right now. Or China in respect of UNCLOS.)
  - hnbad 2y ago
    Case in point: the US has literally threatened to invade The Hague if any US citizens are ever arrested and put on trial there. Even if the US were a signatory, nobody involved would dare risking it.

johnnyanmac 2y ago

> Eighth Amendment >Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. exporting american citizens would very much fall under "cruel and unusual". There's been challenges on this that essentially say "you can be cruel OR unusual, but not both". I'd love to see how they justify a police state foreign prison doesn't qualify as "cruel".

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> exporting american citizens would very much fall under "cruel and unusual" How? I'm not loving this idea, but it's difficult to see why it's cruel or unusual at face value.
- Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 2y ago
  One reason is that it makes it impractical for any relatives to visit.
theossuary 2y ago
According to the now conservative majority on the Supreme Court, there is no such thing as cruel and unusual punishment once your in jail. SCOTUS and the eighth amendment aren't going to save us here, not anymore. https://www.nybooks.com/online/2024/06/18/the-hollowing-of-the-eighth-amendment/ https://www.nybooks.com/online/2024/06/18/the-hollowing-of-t... - https://archive.is/ZkWGP https://archive.is/ZkWGP
hnbad 2y ago
The US has the death penalty, all implementations of which have been demonstrated to qualify as cruel by most people's definitions (e.g. the chemical method is not in any way based on science but rather pumping the victim full of overdoses of chemicals known to kill them, contrary to popular misconceptions it's not like being put down by a vet but more like suffocating until your brain shuts off). Given the state of the US prison industrial complex, I also wouldn't be surprised if the prisons El Salvador would provide for US citizens are at least up to par during the likely contractually required inspections. They wouldn't need to be as good as the average US prison, they would only need to be no worse than the worst US prison.

NewJazz 2y ago

The concept of a "responsibility to protect" is contentious in international law/relations. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect