4 ms·

El Salvador offers to house violent US criminals and deportees of any nation

51 points by miles 2y ago

ofrzeta 2y ago
Is this even legal? Doesn't the state have some obligation to care for their citizens even if they are felons?
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Doesn't the state have some obligation to care for their citizens even if they are felons? According to whom? A sovereign state has, by definition, no obligations to anything but itself.
  - the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
    * for as long as it doesn’t sign international treaties.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > as long as it doesn’t sign international treaties Treaties are legally binding inasmuch as the signatories' legal systems treat them as such. The legal enforcement is entirely internal. Countries are constantly geting into fights over who isn't following such and such treaty properly. (Like, look at North America right now. Or China in respect of UNCLOS.)
      - hnbad 2y ago
        Case in point: the US has literally threatened to invade The Hague if any US citizens are ever arrested and put on trial there. Even if the US were a signatory, nobody involved would dare risking it.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  > Eighth Amendment >Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. exporting american citizens would very much fall under "cruel and unusual". There's been challenges on this that essentially say "you can be cruel OR unusual, but not both". I'd love to see how they justify a police state foreign prison doesn't qualify as "cruel".
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > exporting american citizens would very much fall under "cruel and unusual" How? I'm not loving this idea, but it's difficult to see why it's cruel or unusual at face value.
    - Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 2y ago
      One reason is that it makes it impractical for any relatives to visit.
  - theossuary 2y ago
    According to the now conservative majority on the Supreme Court, there is no such thing as cruel and unusual punishment once your in jail. SCOTUS and the eighth amendment aren't going to save us here, not anymore. https://www.nybooks.com/online/2024/06/18/the-hollowing-of-the-eighth-amendment/ https://www.nybooks.com/online/2024/06/18/the-hollowing-of-t... - https://archive.is/ZkWGP https://archive.is/ZkWGP
  - hnbad 2y ago
    The US has the death penalty, all implementations of which have been demonstrated to qualify as cruel by most people's definitions (e.g. the chemical method is not in any way based on science but rather pumping the victim full of overdoses of chemicals known to kill them, contrary to popular misconceptions it's not like being put down by a vet but more like suffocating until your brain shuts off). Given the state of the US prison industrial complex, I also wouldn't be surprised if the prisons El Salvador would provide for US citizens are at least up to par during the likely contractually required inspections. They wouldn't need to be as good as the average US prison, they would only need to be no worse than the worst US prison.
- NewJazz 2y ago
  The concept of a "responsibility to protect" is contentious in international law/relations. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
0x073 2y ago
Dont think the president want to live in el salvador.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
kevingadd 2y ago
Nothing special, just the secretary of state saying he's going to take "criminal" citizens and send them to overseas prisons. I'm sure they get to come home eventually, and it only applies after a conviction and all the appeals have failed, and it's only for "violent" citizens, not "enemies of the state" or "terrorists". I'm sure the foreign nation has even higher standards for their prisons than we do so nobody will get sick or die over there.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  (if the sarcasm wasn't understood: exporting US prisoners outside the US breaks the 8th amendment).
  - Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 2y ago
    Tbh i'm not convinced this was sarcasm
seydor 2y ago
In a globalized world, every country specializes at what they can do best
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, With conquering limbs astride from land to land; Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame. "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" https://www.nps.gov/stli/learn/historyculture/colossus.htm https://www.nps.gov/stli/learn/historyculture/colossus.htm
- readthenotes1 2y ago
  Nice idea with indentured servitude and no welfare
- pfannkuchen 2y ago
  Growing up I had always assumed this poem was endorsed by national leadership at the time, or had some other important reason for being associated with the Statue of Liberty. If you look into the history of the poem, it’s actually a bit odd. There was some fundraising exhibition to raise money for the statue’s pedestal. The poem was submitted as part of the exhibition. After the exhibition, the poem had no cultural significance. Then, a full two decades later, a friend of the poem’s author successfully lobbied to have the poem added to the pedestal as an engraving. Then, being on the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty, the poem was picked up as significant by history books and the media, I suppose, and rebroadcasted ad infinitum, especially into the ears of pliable young schoolchildren. You may consider if this is why you find the poem to be meaningful or significant.
  - InkCanon 2y ago
    I'm also somewhat confused by it. To my (admittedly limited) knowledge of immigration in the US, it was not really endorsed by any major figure or movement. In fact there were many anti immigration bills and laws written during that time.
PaywallBuster 2y ago
Interesting move! If they can demonstrate they would offer better conditions than 90% of US jails (private or public) and would cost less than half why not? Could be voluntary too: - Prisoners who want better conditions could ask to be moved to El Salvador for the duration of their stay - Prisoners who have regular visitors or any other reason to stay within US just don't
- aetch 2y ago
  I’ll just stop you there. They’re not going to have better conditions.
  - PaywallBuster 2y ago
    It’s an offer Trump can counter offer asking for a new jail just for American population and all the requirements/conditions to house American citizens I don’t think lots of American prisons are that good to begin with anyway
    - pseudalopex 2y ago
      Did Trump show interest ever in better conditions for prisoners?
      - PaywallBuster 2y ago
        if making the deal a reality means showing it's better in every way it will come up :)
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  "Asked", sure. Like how Musk is "asking" everyone in the government to resign? This is Guantanamo Bay 2. With even less legal represenation and an ourtright overstep of the 8th amendment (no, you can't "ask" for a cruel and unusual punishment).
- adamors 2y ago
  It really takes 2 minutes to look up the human rights violations the El Salvadorian government has been doing in the last couple of years. No need to craft this idealistic nonesense.
netsharc 2y ago
> We are willing to take in only convicted criminals (including convicted US citizens) into our mega-prison (CECOT) in exchange for a fee.” > El Salvador’s Terrorism Confinement Center, commonly referred to as CECOT, is the country’s largest and newest prison, with a maximum capacity of 40,000 inmates. > “The fee would be relatively low for the US but significant for us, making our entire prison system sustainable,” he added. They're still outsourcing jobs to foreign suppliers!!! (/s)
lm28469 2y ago
This is becoming real life: https://youtu.be/5RpPTRcz1no https://youtu.be/5RpPTRcz1no
gadders 2y ago
Nice. We have some child rapists currently fighting deportation that we could send their from the UK.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
wtp1saac 2y ago
this is pure horror. this can’t be allowed to stand. it doesn’t matter the offenses, criminals have Constitutional rights El Salvador de facto does not grant them. what the fuck are the Democratic governors and states doing right now? the union is being tortured and rewritten to authoritarians before our very eyes.
- riehwvfbk 2y ago
  They had a problem that needed solving. Now a "bad cop" came in to solve it. They can just sit pretty and keep their "good cop" image.
  - wtp1saac 2y ago
    if you’re not a Moscow bot I am in disbelief of you. do you not see where this road leads? this is not politics. this is a nightmare.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - drewbug01 2y ago
      You asked “what the fuck are the Democratic governors and states doing right now?” …and I think the reply answers the question (although I find the answer a horrifying thought as well). My point is - I don’t think the person replying to you was endorsing the idea, just giving a plausible explanation for why there’s not an immediate uproar: perhaps some folks in government are actually okay with that. :(
      - riehwvfbk 2y ago
        Exactly, thank you. I'm not endorsing the behavior, but think like a politician for a moment. Someone comes in and takes care of a legal and ethical mess. All you have to do is get out of the way and not interfere. Not only do you not get smeared with this mess - you even get to be a knight in shining armor who'll replace the bad guy later. And your problem stays gone. Seems like a no-brainer.
hnbad 2y ago
Given Trump's claims about moving people to Guantanamo (which is unfeasible on so many levels), this sounds like an opportunistic move by El Salvador. The law professor cited seems to be judging the offer based on the current legal situation and relies on the meaning of "deportation" applying to this. It seems plausible to me that El Salvador and the US could agree on a flimsy legal fig leaf that redefines the facilities in El Salvador that would be used to house US citizen criminals as US territory with the El Salvadoran prison staff being contracted to operate the facilities. The US would only have to be careful to maintain some formal distinction between citizens and non-citizens "relocated" to El Salvador. This would also establish closer ties between El Salvador and the US, which could benefit El Salvador's owning class economically.
PaywallBuster 2y ago
For comparison https://www.vera.org/publications/price-of-prisons-2015-state-spending-trends/price-of-prisons-2015-state-spending-trends/price-of-prisons-2015-state-spending-trends-prison-spending https://www.vera.org/publications/price-of-prisons-2015-stat... US prisons cost anywhere from 16k to 70k a year per person
laurent_du 2y ago
Beautiful. I hope European countries will use their service. We have our own bunch of criminal scum that live all too well on taxpayers money.
sincerecook 2y ago
Oh no, the poor criminals.
Ylmaz 2y ago
Good news!
causal 2y ago
This wasn't a random offer btw, Trump has been asking for it and is looking for a legal avenue https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-floats-foreign-imprisonment-us-criminals-repeat-offenders-rcna189522 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-floats-f...

51 points by miles 2y ago

ofrzeta 2y ago

Is this even legal? Doesn't the state have some obligation to care for their citizens even if they are felons?

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Doesn't the state have some obligation to care for their citizens even if they are felons? According to whom? A sovereign state has, by definition, no obligations to anything but itself.
- the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
  * for as long as it doesn’t sign international treaties.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > as long as it doesn’t sign international treaties Treaties are legally binding inasmuch as the signatories' legal systems treat them as such. The legal enforcement is entirely internal. Countries are constantly geting into fights over who isn't following such and such treaty properly. (Like, look at North America right now. Or China in respect of UNCLOS.)
    - hnbad 2y ago
      Case in point: the US has literally threatened to invade The Hague if any US citizens are ever arrested and put on trial there. Even if the US were a signatory, nobody involved would dare risking it.
johnnyanmac 2y ago
> Eighth Amendment >Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. exporting american citizens would very much fall under "cruel and unusual". There's been challenges on this that essentially say "you can be cruel OR unusual, but not both". I'd love to see how they justify a police state foreign prison doesn't qualify as "cruel".
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > exporting american citizens would very much fall under "cruel and unusual" How? I'm not loving this idea, but it's difficult to see why it's cruel or unusual at face value.
  - Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 2y ago
    One reason is that it makes it impractical for any relatives to visit.
- theossuary 2y ago
  According to the now conservative majority on the Supreme Court, there is no such thing as cruel and unusual punishment once your in jail. SCOTUS and the eighth amendment aren't going to save us here, not anymore. https://www.nybooks.com/online/2024/06/18/the-hollowing-of-the-eighth-amendment/ https://www.nybooks.com/online/2024/06/18/the-hollowing-of-t... - https://archive.is/ZkWGP https://archive.is/ZkWGP
- hnbad 2y ago
  The US has the death penalty, all implementations of which have been demonstrated to qualify as cruel by most people's definitions (e.g. the chemical method is not in any way based on science but rather pumping the victim full of overdoses of chemicals known to kill them, contrary to popular misconceptions it's not like being put down by a vet but more like suffocating until your brain shuts off). Given the state of the US prison industrial complex, I also wouldn't be surprised if the prisons El Salvador would provide for US citizens are at least up to par during the likely contractually required inspections. They wouldn't need to be as good as the average US prison, they would only need to be no worse than the worst US prison.
NewJazz 2y ago
The concept of a "responsibility to protect" is contentious in international law/relations. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

0x073 2y ago

Dont think the president want to live in el salvador.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

kevingadd 2y ago

Nothing special, just the secretary of state saying he's going to take "criminal" citizens and send them to overseas prisons. I'm sure they get to come home eventually, and it only applies after a conviction and all the appeals have failed, and it's only for "violent" citizens, not "enemies of the state" or "terrorists". I'm sure the foreign nation has even higher standards for their prisons than we do so nobody will get sick or die over there.

johnnyanmac 2y ago
(if the sarcasm wasn't understood: exporting US prisoners outside the US breaks the 8th amendment).
- Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe 2y ago
  Tbh i'm not convinced this was sarcasm

seydor 2y ago

In a globalized world, every country specializes at what they can do best

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, With conquering limbs astride from land to land; Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame. "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" https://www.nps.gov/stli/learn/historyculture/colossus.htm https://www.nps.gov/stli/learn/historyculture/colossus.htm

readthenotes1 2y ago
Nice idea with indentured servitude and no welfare
pfannkuchen 2y ago
Growing up I had always assumed this poem was endorsed by national leadership at the time, or had some other important reason for being associated with the Statue of Liberty. If you look into the history of the poem, it’s actually a bit odd. There was some fundraising exhibition to raise money for the statue’s pedestal. The poem was submitted as part of the exhibition. After the exhibition, the poem had no cultural significance. Then, a full two decades later, a friend of the poem’s author successfully lobbied to have the poem added to the pedestal as an engraving. Then, being on the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty, the poem was picked up as significant by history books and the media, I suppose, and rebroadcasted ad infinitum, especially into the ears of pliable young schoolchildren. You may consider if this is why you find the poem to be meaningful or significant.
- InkCanon 2y ago
  I'm also somewhat confused by it. To my (admittedly limited) knowledge of immigration in the US, it was not really endorsed by any major figure or movement. In fact there were many anti immigration bills and laws written during that time.

PaywallBuster 2y ago

Interesting move! If they can demonstrate they would offer better conditions than 90% of US jails (private or public) and would cost less than half why not? Could be voluntary too: - Prisoners who want better conditions could ask to be moved to El Salvador for the duration of their stay - Prisoners who have regular visitors or any other reason to stay within US just don't

aetch 2y ago
I’ll just stop you there. They’re not going to have better conditions.
- PaywallBuster 2y ago
  It’s an offer Trump can counter offer asking for a new jail just for American population and all the requirements/conditions to house American citizens I don’t think lots of American prisons are that good to begin with anyway
  - pseudalopex 2y ago
    Did Trump show interest ever in better conditions for prisoners?
    - PaywallBuster 2y ago
      if making the deal a reality means showing it's better in every way it will come up :)
johnnyanmac 2y ago
"Asked", sure. Like how Musk is "asking" everyone in the government to resign? This is Guantanamo Bay 2. With even less legal represenation and an ourtright overstep of the 8th amendment (no, you can't "ask" for a cruel and unusual punishment).
adamors 2y ago
It really takes 2 minutes to look up the human rights violations the El Salvadorian government has been doing in the last couple of years. No need to craft this idealistic nonesense.

netsharc 2y ago

> We are willing to take in only convicted criminals (including convicted US citizens) into our mega-prison (CECOT) in exchange for a fee.” > El Salvador’s Terrorism Confinement Center, commonly referred to as CECOT, is the country’s largest and newest prison, with a maximum capacity of 40,000 inmates. > “The fee would be relatively low for the US but significant for us, making our entire prison system sustainable,” he added. They're still outsourcing jobs to foreign suppliers!!! (/s)

lm28469 2y ago

This is becoming real life: https://youtu.be/5RpPTRcz1no https://youtu.be/5RpPTRcz1no

gadders 2y ago

Nice. We have some child rapists currently fighting deportation that we could send their from the UK.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

wtp1saac 2y ago

this is pure horror. this can’t be allowed to stand. it doesn’t matter the offenses, criminals have Constitutional rights El Salvador de facto does not grant them. what the fuck are the Democratic governors and states doing right now? the union is being tortured and rewritten to authoritarians before our very eyes.

riehwvfbk 2y ago
They had a problem that needed solving. Now a "bad cop" came in to solve it. They can just sit pretty and keep their "good cop" image.
- wtp1saac 2y ago
  if you’re not a Moscow bot I am in disbelief of you. do you not see where this road leads? this is not politics. this is a nightmare.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - drewbug01 2y ago
    You asked “what the fuck are the Democratic governors and states doing right now?” …and I think the reply answers the question (although I find the answer a horrifying thought as well). My point is - I don’t think the person replying to you was endorsing the idea, just giving a plausible explanation for why there’s not an immediate uproar: perhaps some folks in government are actually okay with that. :(
    - riehwvfbk 2y ago
      Exactly, thank you. I'm not endorsing the behavior, but think like a politician for a moment. Someone comes in and takes care of a legal and ethical mess. All you have to do is get out of the way and not interfere. Not only do you not get smeared with this mess - you even get to be a knight in shining armor who'll replace the bad guy later. And your problem stays gone. Seems like a no-brainer.

hnbad 2y ago

Given Trump's claims about moving people to Guantanamo (which is unfeasible on so many levels), this sounds like an opportunistic move by El Salvador. The law professor cited seems to be judging the offer based on the current legal situation and relies on the meaning of "deportation" applying to this. It seems plausible to me that El Salvador and the US could agree on a flimsy legal fig leaf that redefines the facilities in El Salvador that would be used to house US citizen criminals as US territory with the El Salvadoran prison staff being contracted to operate the facilities. The US would only have to be careful to maintain some formal distinction between citizens and non-citizens "relocated" to El Salvador. This would also establish closer ties between El Salvador and the US, which could benefit El Salvador's owning class economically.

PaywallBuster 2y ago

For comparison https://www.vera.org/publications/price-of-prisons-2015-state-spending-trends/price-of-prisons-2015-state-spending-trends/price-of-prisons-2015-state-spending-trends-prison-spending https://www.vera.org/publications/price-of-prisons-2015-stat... US prisons cost anywhere from 16k to 70k a year per person

laurent_du 2y ago

Beautiful. I hope European countries will use their service. We have our own bunch of criminal scum that live all too well on taxpayers money.

sincerecook 2y ago

Oh no, the poor criminals.

Ylmaz 2y ago

Good news!

causal 2y ago

This wasn't a random offer btw, Trump has been asking for it and is looking for a legal avenue https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-floats-foreign-imprisonment-us-criminals-repeat-offenders-rcna189522 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-floats-f...