5 ms·

There are loans and there are "loans". This isn't El Salvador issuing bonds on the market, it is politics that comes with political conditions. That means they

by roenxi 2y ago

There are loans and there are "loans". This isn't El Salvador issuing bonds on the market, it is politics that comes with political conditions. That means they negotiated it and that means they got something in exchange for any leverage they could find.

tw04 2y ago
The thing they have in exchange is millions of citizens that the entire globe doesn’t want to see starve to death and the US in particular doesn’t want to deal with mass amounts of illegal migrants when their economy collapses.
- watwut 2y ago
  I don't think current US leadership thinks more then 5 days in advance or cares about people dying.
  - labster 2y ago
    US Leadership is focused on getting us to Mars, all of that takes long-term planning. Sure, a few of us will die in the process, but come on, a flag on Mars! There is a Planet B!
pajko 2y ago
The IMF are tough guys, countries do not want to owe them, but usually don't have better options. They don't give "loans" and impose rather strict policies on everything. https://actionaid.org/publications/2023/fifty-years-failure-imf-debt-and-austerity-africa https://actionaid.org/publications/2023/fifty-years-failure-...
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  The IMF are an arm of the US "diplomatic" apparatus. The charitable interpretation of how they operate looks like this: 1) A country is doing something the US doesn't like. 2) The country is in some trouble of their own making. 3) The IMF will come and bail them out if they would be inclined to start doing the things the US likes instead of the things it doesn't like. The uncharitable interpretation of "2)" is "the country is doing alright so the US overtly or covertly causes problems for them so they become in trouble". Basically, the IMF money is the carrot you get for bending the knee. The stick can be the CIA or other things.
  - warkdarrior 2y ago
    So your claim is that US administration through the IMF is forcing El Salvador to drop Bitcoin as a national currency. The same US administration that proposed creating a "national digital asset stockpile"??!? (per https://www.cnbc.com/2025/01/23/trump-signs-executive-order-on-crypto-digital-asset-stockpile.html https://www.cnbc.com/2025/01/23/trump-signs-executive-order-... )
    - rvba 2y ago
      USA's own stockpile talk is to pump Doge and help the oligarchs get richer. El Salvador's cryptocurrency was helping other people (not sure if actual citizens), so it had to go.
    - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
      The IMF agreement requiring them to do this was from December, i.e. the prior US administration.
      - roenxi 2y ago
        And, regardless, "you do this, we do that" in no way unusual for the US's foreign policy. Eg, the US military insists on democracy onshore and is mildly opposed to democracy in the middle east. Neutral at best. Any democracy they like in the ME as long as it never votes for any policy that inconveniences the nearest US general.
      - dragonwriter 2y ago
        The IMF isn't run by the US any more than it is run by Russia or any of the other major members (those that have their own executive-director rather than being in a group that together shares one.)
        AnthonyMouse 2y ago
        "Large international banking things have strong ties to large governments" is kind of a weird thing to dispute. Try starting an independent one if you think otherwise.
The_Colonel 2y ago
IMF is the lender of last resort, their loans pretty much always come with strings attached which provide some assurance that the loan will be repaid.
motorest 2y ago
> There are loans and there are "loans". This isn't El Salvador issuing bonds on the market, it is politics that comes with political conditions. That means they negotiated it and that means they got something in exchange for any leverage they could find. I think you need to take a pause and read what you wrote because there's some serious cognitive dissonance in your claims. The IMF is a fund put together and ran by the majority of countries in the world as a lender of last resort. It serves as the world's insurance policy on stability. So when a country like El Salvador knocks on their doors, it's a kin to stating the world they are in trouble and they desperately need a hand. The IMF then provides help, but requires as a tradeoff that the country cleans up their act and actually corrects it's course as to mitigate or eliminate the root causes of their instability. For example, countries that are hugely indebted have to comply with demands to lower their sovereign debt down to manageable levels. Looking at El Salvador, their populist and ill-advised policy to adopt Bitcoin as a currency was a fantastic failure with a tradeoff of being a huge risk factor. Even the most firebrand crypto bro is forced to acknowledge that crypto currencies like Bitcoin have a number of traits that renders them unusable as money, among which the most popular one is the core reason driving it's popularity: volatility. It's to no surprise that one of the basic requirements for stability is to not use a highly volatile and uncontrollable asset as the nation's currency.
- roenxi 2y ago
  >_> Cheeky FYI, but cognitive dissonance is the "mental disturbance people feel when they realize their cognitions and actions are inconsistent or contradictory" [0]. While I'm certainly not above that, in this case I don't think I even made and defended enough claims here for them to be contradictory in principle and you don't seem to be arguing that. Consider going with the more straightforward "I disagree!" or "That isn't correct!". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
  - motorest 2y ago
    It is a textbook case of cognitive dissonance. For example, you are somehow trying to hold contradictory claims on how Bitcoin's clear failure as a currency is somehow a sign of it's success. The mental disturbance angle is also compounded by the far-fetched conspiracy theories on how El Salvador ditched Bitcoin because "the man" wants to kill it.

by roenxi 2y ago

tw04 2y ago

The thing they have in exchange is millions of citizens that the entire globe doesn’t want to see starve to death and the US in particular doesn’t want to deal with mass amounts of illegal migrants when their economy collapses.

watwut 2y ago
I don't think current US leadership thinks more then 5 days in advance or cares about people dying.
- labster 2y ago
  US Leadership is focused on getting us to Mars, all of that takes long-term planning. Sure, a few of us will die in the process, but come on, a flag on Mars! There is a Planet B!

pajko 2y ago

The IMF are tough guys, countries do not want to owe them, but usually don't have better options. They don't give "loans" and impose rather strict policies on everything. https://actionaid.org/publications/2023/fifty-years-failure-imf-debt-and-austerity-africa https://actionaid.org/publications/2023/fifty-years-failure-...

AnthonyMouse 2y ago
The IMF are an arm of the US "diplomatic" apparatus. The charitable interpretation of how they operate looks like this: 1) A country is doing something the US doesn't like. 2) The country is in some trouble of their own making. 3) The IMF will come and bail them out if they would be inclined to start doing the things the US likes instead of the things it doesn't like. The uncharitable interpretation of "2)" is "the country is doing alright so the US overtly or covertly causes problems for them so they become in trouble". Basically, the IMF money is the carrot you get for bending the knee. The stick can be the CIA or other things.
- warkdarrior 2y ago
  So your claim is that US administration through the IMF is forcing El Salvador to drop Bitcoin as a national currency. The same US administration that proposed creating a "national digital asset stockpile"??!? (per https://www.cnbc.com/2025/01/23/trump-signs-executive-order-on-crypto-digital-asset-stockpile.html https://www.cnbc.com/2025/01/23/trump-signs-executive-order-... )
  - rvba 2y ago
    USA's own stockpile talk is to pump Doge and help the oligarchs get richer. El Salvador's cryptocurrency was helping other people (not sure if actual citizens), so it had to go.
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    The IMF agreement requiring them to do this was from December, i.e. the prior US administration.
    - roenxi 2y ago
      And, regardless, "you do this, we do that" in no way unusual for the US's foreign policy. Eg, the US military insists on democracy onshore and is mildly opposed to democracy in the middle east. Neutral at best. Any democracy they like in the ME as long as it never votes for any policy that inconveniences the nearest US general.
    - dragonwriter 2y ago
      The IMF isn't run by the US any more than it is run by Russia or any of the other major members (those that have their own executive-director rather than being in a group that together shares one.)
      - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
        "Large international banking things have strong ties to large governments" is kind of a weird thing to dispute. Try starting an independent one if you think otherwise.

The_Colonel 2y ago

IMF is the lender of last resort, their loans pretty much always come with strings attached which provide some assurance that the loan will be repaid.

motorest 2y ago

> There are loans and there are "loans". This isn't El Salvador issuing bonds on the market, it is politics that comes with political conditions. That means they negotiated it and that means they got something in exchange for any leverage they could find. I think you need to take a pause and read what you wrote because there's some serious cognitive dissonance in your claims. The IMF is a fund put together and ran by the majority of countries in the world as a lender of last resort. It serves as the world's insurance policy on stability. So when a country like El Salvador knocks on their doors, it's a kin to stating the world they are in trouble and they desperately need a hand. The IMF then provides help, but requires as a tradeoff that the country cleans up their act and actually corrects it's course as to mitigate or eliminate the root causes of their instability. For example, countries that are hugely indebted have to comply with demands to lower their sovereign debt down to manageable levels. Looking at El Salvador, their populist and ill-advised policy to adopt Bitcoin as a currency was a fantastic failure with a tradeoff of being a huge risk factor. Even the most firebrand crypto bro is forced to acknowledge that crypto currencies like Bitcoin have a number of traits that renders them unusable as money, among which the most popular one is the core reason driving it's popularity: volatility. It's to no surprise that one of the basic requirements for stability is to not use a highly volatile and uncontrollable asset as the nation's currency.

roenxi 2y ago
>_> Cheeky FYI, but cognitive dissonance is the "mental disturbance people feel when they realize their cognitions and actions are inconsistent or contradictory" [0]. While I'm certainly not above that, in this case I don't think I even made and defended enough claims here for them to be contradictory in principle and you don't seem to be arguing that. Consider going with the more straightforward "I disagree!" or "That isn't correct!". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
- motorest 2y ago
  It is a textbook case of cognitive dissonance. For example, you are somehow trying to hold contradictory claims on how Bitcoin's clear failure as a currency is somehow a sign of it's success. The mental disturbance angle is also compounded by the far-fetched conspiracy theories on how El Salvador ditched Bitcoin because "the man" wants to kill it.