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Deepseek's release has shown that there's no great risk in getting left behind. All the info is out there, people with skills are readily available, creating a

Deepseek's release has shown that there's no great risk in getting left behind. All the info is out there, people with skills are readily available, creating a model that will match whatever current model is considered frontier level is not that hard for an entity like the EU. For everyone here shouting that the EU needs to do something, be a leader, what have they lost so far by choosing to lead in legislation instead of development? They've lost nothing. They've gained a lot. They can use the same frontier level open source model as everyone else, and meanwhile, they can stay on top of harmful uses like social or credit scoring. Also speaking as a European, legislation is kind of the point of a government in the first place. I do think the EU goes too far in many cases. But I haven't seen anything that makes me think they're dealing with this particular hype train badly so far. Play the safe long game, let everyone else spend all the money, see what works, focus on legislation of potentially dangerous technology.

tesch1 2y ago
> lead in legislation > legislation is kind of the point of a government As an American, most of this post reads like doublespeak satire. I guess it's not, but just to put a transatlantic pov here. I'll add a sports metaphor for good measure: in order to become expert football players, we'll get tickets to watch the best teams play.
- esperent 2y ago
  > As an American, most of this post reads like doublespeak satire Yeah, you guys have a lot of brainwashing to get over. I can imagine that you're deeply conditioned to read any outside views on politics as satire. One kind of brainwashing is the need to reframe everything political into sports metaphors. The EU is not a sports team. It's a political entity. Whatever you might have been taught, these are very different things, with different needs. You can't have meaningful conversations about a political entity via sports metaphors. Well, maybe in US politics you can. There you have two teams determined to beat the other at all costs. EU politics isn't like that. We are trying to work together, not kill each other.
  - mandmandam 2y ago
    > There you have two teams determined to beat the other at all costs On the surface. It's all kayfabe though; heels and babyfaces. Just like with wrestling, the media know the score, and all the angles. After the match, they all laugh and joke together on the depraved billionaire owner's megayacht.
    - esperent 2y ago
      I don't think this is accurate, looking at it from outside. I mean, yeah, they both want to end up sitting on the billionaires yacht. But one side wants to do that while looking out over a fascist dictatorship. The other side has some weird idea that the billionaires will use their wealth to create a good life for everyone else too. Even though the term went out of fashion, it's still trickle down economics. These two sides are not the same. They're both bad, but one is much worse. The last time fascism took hold it took nuclear bombs in Japan and firebombing Dresden to end it.
      - what 2y ago
        >fascist dictatorship You probably shouldn’t be calling other people brainwashed.
        esperent 2y ago
        I hope you're right. I like America, I want you guys to overcome this. Just remember that what most people think of when you say "fascism" is "literally Nazis". I don't think many people believe that's where the US is heading. There are far more possible flavors of fascism. The direction of the US is more like what Russia has, an oligarchy, with elements of fascism like concentration camps.
        VagabundoP 2y ago
        Yep, fascism will mold itself to the current culture and climate, and in the US right now that seems it will be meme ironic but real fascism.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- spiderfarmer 2y ago
  I’ll add some European wisdom to your sports metaphor. You don’t have to become a big football player to make money in football. I’d rather make money from the tickets and rights than dedicate my life to a sport that’s only played in the US.
lolinder 2y ago
> legislation is kind of the point of a government in the first place I would personally consider legislation to be but one means to an end, with the point of a (democratic) government actually being to ensure stability and prosperity for its citizens. In that framework, "leading with legislation" doesn't make any sense—you can lead with results, but the legislation is not itself a result! Lead with development or lead with standard of living or lead with civil rights, but don't lead with legislation. Your formulation sounds like politician's logic: "something must be done, this is something, therefore we must do it". Legislation as an end in itself. Very interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vidzkYnaf6Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vidzkYnaf6Y
- esperent 2y ago
  > I would personally consider legislation to be but one means to an end, with the point of a (democratic) government actually being to ensure stability and prosperity for its citizens You're correct, in retrospect I was a bit hyperbolic in my statement. A better statement of my view is: the goal of a government should be the prosperity and wellbeing of it's citizens and the greater system we're all a part of (both geopolitical and ecological), and the best way we've so far discovered to do that is via legislation of an otherwise free market.
glooglork 2y ago
> They can use the same frontier level open source model as everyone else, and meanwhile, they can stay on top of harmful uses like social or credit scoring. We are dependent on models created by USA and Chinese companies for access to the technology that seems to be the next internet - while the entire world is accelerating hard towards protectionism and tariff wars. What could possibly go wrong
- wickedsight 2y ago
  Yeah, this is exactly what scares me. But it also scares me that there's almost zero oversight on what USA and China are producing and the bias that could be embedded into these models by their creators... I'm just not sure whether it's worse to be behind or to try to be in front by all means necessary.
YetAnotherNick 2y ago
Deepseek didn't show anything except the compute cost of final model. We don't know how much data collection costed, how much unethical data like copyrighted data or OpenAI's data is needed, the cost of experiments etc. > Creating a model that will match whatever current model is considered frontier level is not that hard for an entity like the EU. If they have this as their top priority and allotted few billion dollars then sure. Not in the current form where the people involved are only involved for publication, not doing hard engineering things that takes months or years and they could do the same thing in OpenAI or Deepseek for like $1 million salary which both of them pay.
amunozo 2y ago
I partially agree with you. The only problem is that these markets are highly monopolistic, and we will be creating another technological dependency on the US.

tesch1 2y ago

> lead in legislation > legislation is kind of the point of a government As an American, most of this post reads like doublespeak satire. I guess it's not, but just to put a transatlantic pov here. I'll add a sports metaphor for good measure: in order to become expert football players, we'll get tickets to watch the best teams play.

esperent 2y ago
> As an American, most of this post reads like doublespeak satire Yeah, you guys have a lot of brainwashing to get over. I can imagine that you're deeply conditioned to read any outside views on politics as satire. One kind of brainwashing is the need to reframe everything political into sports metaphors. The EU is not a sports team. It's a political entity. Whatever you might have been taught, these are very different things, with different needs. You can't have meaningful conversations about a political entity via sports metaphors. Well, maybe in US politics you can. There you have two teams determined to beat the other at all costs. EU politics isn't like that. We are trying to work together, not kill each other.
- mandmandam 2y ago
  > There you have two teams determined to beat the other at all costs On the surface. It's all kayfabe though; heels and babyfaces. Just like with wrestling, the media know the score, and all the angles. After the match, they all laugh and joke together on the depraved billionaire owner's megayacht.
  - esperent 2y ago
    I don't think this is accurate, looking at it from outside. I mean, yeah, they both want to end up sitting on the billionaires yacht. But one side wants to do that while looking out over a fascist dictatorship. The other side has some weird idea that the billionaires will use their wealth to create a good life for everyone else too. Even though the term went out of fashion, it's still trickle down economics. These two sides are not the same. They're both bad, but one is much worse. The last time fascism took hold it took nuclear bombs in Japan and firebombing Dresden to end it.
    - what 2y ago
      >fascist dictatorship You probably shouldn’t be calling other people brainwashed.
      - esperent 2y ago
        I hope you're right. I like America, I want you guys to overcome this. Just remember that what most people think of when you say "fascism" is "literally Nazis". I don't think many people believe that's where the US is heading. There are far more possible flavors of fascism. The direction of the US is more like what Russia has, an oligarchy, with elements of fascism like concentration camps.
        VagabundoP 2y ago
        Yep, fascism will mold itself to the current culture and climate, and in the US right now that seems it will be meme ironic but real fascism.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
spiderfarmer 2y ago
I’ll add some European wisdom to your sports metaphor. You don’t have to become a big football player to make money in football. I’d rather make money from the tickets and rights than dedicate my life to a sport that’s only played in the US.

lolinder 2y ago

> legislation is kind of the point of a government in the first place I would personally consider legislation to be but one means to an end, with the point of a (democratic) government actually being to ensure stability and prosperity for its citizens. In that framework, "leading with legislation" doesn't make any sense—you can lead with results, but the legislation is not itself a result! Lead with development or lead with standard of living or lead with civil rights, but don't lead with legislation. Your formulation sounds like politician's logic: "something must be done, this is something, therefore we must do it". Legislation as an end in itself. Very interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vidzkYnaf6Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vidzkYnaf6Y

esperent 2y ago
> I would personally consider legislation to be but one means to an end, with the point of a (democratic) government actually being to ensure stability and prosperity for its citizens You're correct, in retrospect I was a bit hyperbolic in my statement. A better statement of my view is: the goal of a government should be the prosperity and wellbeing of it's citizens and the greater system we're all a part of (both geopolitical and ecological), and the best way we've so far discovered to do that is via legislation of an otherwise free market.

glooglork 2y ago

> They can use the same frontier level open source model as everyone else, and meanwhile, they can stay on top of harmful uses like social or credit scoring. We are dependent on models created by USA and Chinese companies for access to the technology that seems to be the next internet - while the entire world is accelerating hard towards protectionism and tariff wars. What could possibly go wrong

wickedsight 2y ago
Yeah, this is exactly what scares me. But it also scares me that there's almost zero oversight on what USA and China are producing and the bias that could be embedded into these models by their creators... I'm just not sure whether it's worse to be behind or to try to be in front by all means necessary.

YetAnotherNick 2y ago

Deepseek didn't show anything except the compute cost of final model. We don't know how much data collection costed, how much unethical data like copyrighted data or OpenAI's data is needed, the cost of experiments etc. > Creating a model that will match whatever current model is considered frontier level is not that hard for an entity like the EU. If they have this as their top priority and allotted few billion dollars then sure. Not in the current form where the people involved are only involved for publication, not doing hard engineering things that takes months or years and they could do the same thing in OpenAI or Deepseek for like $1 million salary which both of them pay.

amunozo 2y ago

I partially agree with you. The only problem is that these markets are highly monopolistic, and we will be creating another technological dependency on the US.